NESLife attempt #3

[bestshot9]

My my, Gliding Kakleia, what big eyes you have.

I like 'em Daft, keep up the good work!

 

[Abaddon]

Moderator Action: gratuitous unneed text deleted
PLEASE Dafty, give this NES an elixar!

 

[Lord_Iggy]

I really like the art style of this NES. I understand if you don't update, but I really hope you do nonetheless.

 

[Tyrs]

Lurker Comment I've always like your drawings much more than the creations from Spore. They look a lot more detailed.

 

[erez87]

If you plan an update, I'll post an Evolution... This IS the only NES I am in...

 

[Daftpanzer]

OK, here's some ideas for continuing the epic legacy… at some point…

PROPOSAL #1: re-work NESLife3, starting a new thread (this one is officially too big, anyway) with new rules and stats, and some new way of displaying things.

PROPOSAL #2: launch NESLife4 with the new rules, possibly in the near future. With this new start I would aim to avoid some of the anomalies and things I regret from this NES. However, the world of NESLife3 will not be scrapped either, since at some point it would eventually reappear as a separate 'tribal' NES…

Some Tribal Ideas - feel free to add your own ideas / argue / comment etc:

Spoiler :

It will be an interesting time on the planet. Diversity is as high as ever before. The largest ever creatures roam the land and oceans. The continents jostle around, and the climate and sea levels are unpredictable. At the same time, intelligent, tribal beings will emerge from several different lines of evolution…

Obvious candidates are advanced Scuterids, evolved from the Manorix - probably getting smaller in body size, to allow for larger social groups to survive on the same resources. They will be omnivorous, able to farm and hunt. They will all have manipulator hands, but the 'warrior' caste will retain their large claws as well. They will be adaptable enough to spread out across the land surface. Many of their 'tools' may come from the body parts (claws and exoskeletons) of their cousin species, or defeated rival tribes.

Another candidate is the Kakleia line, probably a version of the flying Kakleia that returns to the ground and forms social groups. The 'wing' skin flaps may evolve into a method of display only. These will be mostly carnivorous, hunter societies, using tools and traps as well as speed and agility to hunt mostly small prey. They may remain tied to warmer climates and semi-forest terrain. They may remain nocturnal also, in contrast to the Manorix line.

Jubbleras will not achieve much individual intelligence, but huge areas of the planet (especially the tropics) will remain under control of Jubblera hive societies, getting ever larger and more complex. Flightless, burrowing and swimming species will evolve too. They will prove adaptable enough, reacting with new behaviours and strategies to counter the encroachment of the 'tribes'. They will also fight and compete with each other in epic genocidal 'wars'. Jubbleras may actually pioneer large-scale farming, soil fertilization, even crop rotation and the use of 'concrete' for building, though it will all be mysterious 'instinctual' development (like leaf-cutter ants) rather than deliberate intelligent ones.

Kathulu Finners will form their own underwater societies, with intricate chromatopore / bioluminescent method of communication, agile tentacles for using tools, and domestication of various underwater critters and plants. Although they lack the use of fire (and thus metallurgy) they are able to build 'towns' on the sea floor, or preferably dig homes out of underwater cliffs. The most intelligent ones will need lots of oxygen for their big brains, and even with super-efficient gills, they will need to stay in cold oxygen-rich water near the poles. Others may evolve primitive air-breathing organs and may even be able to venture onto land for short periods, though they probably won't be so smart. Maybe there will even be some cooperation between the cold-sea 'thinkers' and the warm-sea 'explorers'.

Other creatures of importance: (to name but a few)

There will be a lack of suitable 'cattle' species. The descendents of the Scrapers are likely to remain solitary animals and will be very difficult to tame or domesticate. The descendents of the Barius (fellow Scuterid cousins of the Manorix) will be more tame-able, but still difficult to control, not to mention powerful and bad-tempered.

Flying Scuterids, the descendents of the Madryte and Frygyte, will be a tasty crunchy snack if they can be caught. Perhaps some flightless varieties may be found on remote islands and then domesticated and spread elsewhere.

Jubbleras will continue to 'farm' the Mamicalon species, which might slowly 'devolve' into helpless meaty blobs, unable to live without being fed ready-chewed plant matter by Jubblera workers.

There will also be a lack of tasty plants in general. Few fruiting plants are left, and they don't produce much fruit. Its possible some new fruit-heavy plants may soon evolve under the protection of the Jubbleras and then spread elsewhere.

Zeeboo roots and stems, mashed+cooked to remove poisons, may be a staple diet of some 'tribes'.

The descendents of the Saurs (the 'true' Saurs, evolved by erez87, not the other Saur by Charles Li) may be major pests, a cross between wild dogs, rabbits and locusts. Fast-running groups could devour fields of crops and make a quick getaway. They could also be occasional snacks, or pets.

Descendents of the Mortytes and the larger Phobonytes will be deadly night-time hunters with finely tuned heat-sensing organs. Their deadly poison-claws will be something for all others to fear (or harnessed to be used as weapons). Some may evolve to live in greater swarms, and develop hive-building similar to the Jubbleras. Others could grow into terrifying, giant, solitary hunters.

Lupus/Lupivus will be powerful and intelligent hunters on land. Though not forming large social groups or using tools, they could either be dangerous enemies or useful allies of the others.

The Tudians (especially the descendents of the Greatudian) will play a similar role to the Lupus in relation to the Kathulu Finners.

Shellsters may be an important seafood for both land and sea 'tribes'.

Descendents of the Scarthus/Scythus will become the biggest living sea creatures, probably remaining as planktonovores and taking on the role of whales.

A special ecosystem will evolve in tropical waters, where huge floating carpets of Legionicus are tangled up and supported by flowery Blisstower reefs. Strange new evolutions of Legionicus could follow. Specialised oceanic Jubblera species may take over the Blisstower reefs.

Auroras will most likely keep their place as airborne predators and be very common around the planet.

Swarms of razor-scaled Amphibeels could be major pests in swampy lands as well as in tropical waters. New giant Amphibeels could evolve.

Evolved Land Tentakuls could be new upstart predators on land.

The Scuterid cousins of the Manorix will be the biggest and most epic land animals ever. Some will remain quadrupeds, while others will be mostly bipedal with small stunty back legs only acting as support when rearing upwards. Some will lose their front claws in exchange for long necks, while others will grow even bigger claws for fighting and tearing up trees. These giant animals may carry around whole hives of specialised Jubbleras or Bulgorbs on their flanks, feeding off exoskeleton parasites.

Sprite-style graphics? This could be much faster and easier to draw:

Spoiler :

Complexified NESLife rules, to address some realism/organization issues with the game:

Spoiler :

IMPORTANT: 'Family' System:

Rather than maintaining an epic list of 200+ species, there will only be 50 or so listed at any time.

Older species will be lumped together into 'Families'.

A family will have stats similar to a single species, but it will be an abstraction of many related ones all combined together. We can assume that there are new species evolving in the family, as well as older species dying out or still surviving, but none are interesting enough to list individually.

A family will have some standard Genes, to show what most (if not all) the member species share, and also range of 'variables' (I haven't worked this out yet!) to show some of the variations of species in the family.

(EG, most of the species of the Jubblera line, or the Fern line, or the Yuckius line, could be represented with a single block of stats)

Players will be able to evolve a new specific/'key' species out of a 'Family' in the same way as you'd normally evolve from another species, but there will be special rules involved (I haven't worked this out yet!).

The idea is to cut down on maintenance, and make it easier for players (especially new players) to see what is going on, and make things easier and more organized overall, while at the same time allowing for the existence of many more species than before.

The moderator can simply update the 'families' with new genes each turn/era to represent dozens of NPC evolutions. Although, some important NPC evolutions may still be picked out at listed among the 'key' species.

The updates will inform players when the stats of older species have been 'absorbed' into a Family.

New 'Gene' Rules:

Everyone has 8 points to spend each turn (although certain bonuses may allow more).

As usual, you pick out a species (or family) to meddle with, and the result will be a new species - you will not automatically replace the old species, but create a new offshoot with new genes+stats.

Decreasing a level (of any existing gene) costs 1 point (you may want to do this to improve efficiency, since every gene/level is assumed to increase the amount of energy the species needs to survive and/or breed).

Increasing a level (of any existing gene) costs 2 points.

Adding a whole new gene (one which the original species didn't already have in its genes or its 'legacy' - see below) costs 4 points. Any new gene must stay at level x1 for the first turn/era.

Unused points are not carried over to the next era!

'Key' Genes:

These are genes that are extra costly to remove, because they have become essential for vital functions (like, say, a skeleton in vertebrates). They now cost 2 points to decrease, until level x1, when they cost a full 6 points to remove. They don't cost anything extra to increase, though.

Why would you want a 'Key' gene? Well, you probably wouldn’t - so the moderator will decide which genes become 'key' genes over time. They will be highlighted in bold in the list of genes for that species.

'Legacy' Genes:

These are genes that the species used to have, at some level or other, but have now been reduced to level 0, and thus are not affecting anything anymore...

But, we can say they still lurk in the unused segments of DNA (like chickens are sometimes born with primitive teeth, etc). So if you want to 'reactivate' them, you just need to spend a standard 2 points to increase them to level x1 again. Or you can even increase them back up to x2, x3 etc in one go.

So, basically, its much easier to re-use something that is already lurking in the 'unused' DNA, there is no penalty for re-introducing it.

Although, after long enough, some genes might disappear from this 'legacy' too. EG I think mammals would have to totally re-invent 'gills' if they somehow needed them again.

Mutually Exclusive Genes:

Things like Skeleton and Exoskeleton will not be allowed to exist together in the same species.

Also, separate Land Roots and Sea Roots would mimic the difficulties of land-adapted plants spreading back into the seas.

Etc.

'Neurons':

I'm not so sure about this idea, more than the others:

Social/behaviour things will no longer counted as 'genes'. Instead, they will be 'neurons'. The only gene related to behaviour will be 'brain power' (or maybe renamed 'brains' or 'intelligence' or something).

The level of Brain Power will give you a number of 'slots' which you can fill with 'neurons'.

You will be able to set what 'neurons' you want, in order of priority. Like Genes, Neurons can be doubled up, tripled up - to x2, x5 etc - so long as the total of all levels doesn't exceed the Brain Power level.

There may be rules for what neurons can be replaced - perhaps like the 'Key gene' system, some will be bolded and essentially locked by the mod against being completely removed (though the x-level can be reduced) - but in any case this will not cost anything to do. Its all separate from the points allowance thing.

EG, a species with Brain Power x4, could have something like this in the stats:

Neurons (4): Inquisitiveness x1, Parenting x1, Aggression x1, Socializing x1

OR this:

Neurons (4): Aggression x2, Parenting x2

OR this:

Neurons (4): Aggression x4

Other Things That are No Longer Counted as Genes:

Various sliders will replace water retention / heat resistance / cold resistance / pressure resistance etc:

Water/Pressure 'slider': +5 is surviving in the deep ocean abyss. +2 is nearer the surface of the oceans. +1 is shallow sea water. 0 is rock pools, ponds, lakes and rivers. -1 is survival out of water for short periods. -2 is surviving in moist land, -3 drier land, and so on… -5 is surviving in the driest places.

WATER: (deepest ocean -> water/land boundary -> driest land)

Heat tolerance is another 'slider': +5 is the hottest temperatures on land. +0 is for pleasantly warm land, and the warmest tropical seas. -1 is for a cooler temperate climate. -2 is as cold as water gets, and quite chilly on land. -5 is for polar survival.

HEAT: (hot -> pleasant -> frozen)

While genes for 'stomach' and 'intestines' may exist, the actual diet is another 'slider': -5 is totally dedicated to plant matter of all kinds. -1 is streamlined towards plants, but can still eat occasional meaty things. +0 is a standard omnivorous diet. +1 is getting more towards a predator/scavenger diet, but tasty fruit can still be eaten. +5 is totally adapted to get the most from flesh of animals. Note that plants can also eat other plants or animals!

DIET: (vegetarian -> omnivore -> carnivore)

Additionally, two sliders cover reproduction, but not including 'behaviour' aspects (such as actually caring for youngsters after laying eggs/giving birth), or the actual method of reproduction via eggs or spores or whatever, which are still determined by the mix of 'genes':

'Quantity' slider: -5 is minimal numbers of offspring, adults have better things to do than reproduce most of the time. +0 is a compromise. +5 is producing as many young as possible, putting a big strain on the 'parent'.

QUANTITY: (minimal -> balanced -> mass spawning)

'Development' slider: -5 is pumping out the most basic larvae/spores/hatchlings/babies possible. +0 is a compromise. +5 is offspring that are very well developed when they are born/hatched/sprouted, perhaps even perfect miniature versions of the adults, though this puts a great strain on the parent's body.

DEVELOPMENT: (undeveloped -> balanced -> well developed)

All these 'sliders' cost 1 point to move closer towards zero (IE back to the middle), and 2 points to move away from zero in either direction (IE going even more positive or even more negative), using the same points allowance described above.

Examples:

Super Duper Blobster: Daftpanzer/NPC
Evolved From: Blobster
Genes: Filter x1, Stomach x1, Swimming x1
Legacy: Drifting
Neurons (0): none
Environment: warm seas (Heat +0, Water +1)
Diet: omnivore, eats varied plankton (+0)
Reproduction: frequent spawning (Quantity +2, Development +0)

Woody Fern: tuxedohamm
Evolved from: Fern (Family)
Genes: Photosynthesis x6, Leaves x3, Land Roots x2, Regeneration x1, Hibernation x1, Carpeting x1, Fast Growth x1, Stem x1, Bark x1, Airborne Spores x3.
Legacy: Acid
Neurons (0): none
Environment: varied temperate land (Heat -1, Water -4)
Diet: soil (+0)
Reproduction: airborne spores (Quantity +1, Development +0)

Gliding Kakliea: bestshot9
Evolved from: Strange Kakliea
Genes: Brain x4, Hearing x3, Smelling x2, Eyes x5, Lungs x2, Skeleton x2, Cartilage x1, Jaws x2, Fangs x1, Stomach x3, Intestines x3, Walking x1, Climbing x3, Fur x1, Claws x1, Digging x1, Flying x1, Live Birth x2.
Legacy: Swimming
Neurons (4): Stalking x1, Parenting x2, Socializing x1
Environment: warm forests (Heat +0, Water -2)
Diet: predatory carnivore, eats small animals (+4)
Reproduction: live birth, frequent litters (Quantity +1, Development +1)

Yggulu Finner: NPC
Evolved from: Kathulu Finner (Family)
Genes: Brain x7, Hearing x1, Smelling x1, Eyes x4, Gills x5, Skeleton x2, Jaws x1, Tentacle x4, Strength x1, Stomach x2, Intestines x4, Bioluminescence x3, Swimming x5.
Legacy: Filter
Neurons (7): Socializing x2, Parenting x2, Inquisitiveness x2, Tool Use x1
Environment: cold seas (Heat -1, Water +2)
Diet: borderline herbivore, eats plants and small animals (-1)
Reproduction: large vulnerable egg sacs (Quantity -3, Development +3)

 

[Terrance888]

Daft, I just read this National Geo Article about evolution.

It seems limb genes are present since boney fish! They are only activated for a longer time and in different areas to produce a wide variaty of bones and limbs from long, graceful wingspans of birds to a short climbing limb of the lizard.

This is also important for 'short term' evolution, or adaption to a specific short non-climatic weather change. For example a drought will lead to greater competition between, say Scrapers. So maybe those with a more-defined skin cells can survive just long enough to produce slightly more offspring that by the end of this period most of them grow stronger skin cells. But then maybe another periord favors another expression of genes, greater or lesser, and another sub-species is born. Eventually, if the pressure stays long enough, it becomes less likely for the parent and dessendent species to mate and eventually cleaves into two species.

But for NESing I will leave all the above out, to become a moot point.

Finally, we need a series of defined genes. Like 'Sexual Markings' (Peacock feathers, big **** ect.) that do a "Might be" bonus that is given to the update. So maybe such as...

As competition increases they evolve faster than before. (+1 point for this species for next turn ect)

Finally, I think the above is great. More later.

 

[Daftpanzer]

@Charles Li, its a good point about competition for mates etc. I was thinking of 'display' genes and things like 'aggression' giving a bonus, effectively a small boost to your population, by ensuring that the stronger and fitter individuals produce the most offspring.

EDIT: another issue is cross-breeding between related species. This hasn't been in the game before, but maybe it should be in some cases. Those species with attractive displays etc could also spawn a set of hybrid species, not NPC's but listed under whichever player created one or both 'parent' species, and valid for recieving bonuses etc.

As for fins becomming legs and wings, thats another good point - its much easier to adapt an existing pair of limbs than try to evolve a new one! - but I'm not sure if I want to get into the specifics of individual limbs.

EDIT#2:

@Everyone, another thing I forgot to mention is potential revival of something from NESLife#1, the ability to use bonuses to alter the terrain, climate etc, even create huge disasters, with the idea it might benefit your species more than your rivals. It may be getting too 'magical', but then again, the ability to guide evolution in the first place is magical too

 

[Abaddon]

I am fine with sprite graphics... they still look pretty damned cool.

Tribal.. hmm, while we have developed a very deep world, how many different "sentient" creatures could you deal with and balance as viable civilizations?

Essentially I see several options which i would enjoy.

1.Continue as we are, with simplified graphics.
2.Launch a freshstart on this world, with several races to chose from.

I really don't like the idea of including magic. I know this isn't very realistic, but its still within the realms of sense...

 

[Terrance888]

Finally, I was going to add (Herd Instinct X4) and (Brains X2) the next turns.

Just because you ended a little earlier than I thought.

 

[Ekolite]

Really, really like the Tribal idea, especially if the offshoot of the kakliea becomes a tribe .

Personally, I dislike the sprite graphics but I understand the need for simplification. Maybe the tribal species could have full art and other, less important ones could just use sprite art?

 

[Vertinari118]

Great ideas Daft. If we start this tribal stage would players be able to continue evolving species or would we have to choose a tribal one? The Lupus are ascending to sapience slowly. Next turn I was planning on having them shift toward bipedalism and increase their intelligence further and then... Also Daft what gave you the idea that the packs are small? In bad time they are often non-existent or only eight individuals but in good times they number 20 or 30 individuals. A pack could wipe out a village in a few hours if it wanted to. I would not mind sprite art but I request the awesome wolf sprite from NEB for the Lupus.

 

[Lord_Iggy]

I like the tribal idea, the remaking NESLife3 idea, and the NESLife4 idea (perhaps with sprites).

Basically, I recommend that you do what would be most fun for you- I'd have a great time in any of these NESes.

 

[Ekolite]

Also Daft what gave you the idea that the packs are small? In bad time they are often non-existent or only eight individuals but in good times they number 20 or 30 individuals. A pack could wipe out a village in a few hours if it wanted to.

Daft decides things like how big the packs are, not the players.

 

[Vertinari118]

Even if the player has put in extensive research? My wolves are not so different to grey wolves of Eurasia and America. In Canada a pack of almost forty was found. Eight is standard but in good times a pack of twenty individuals is not uncommon.

 

[Lord_Iggy]

They're still not the same species Vert, regardless of similarities.

 

[Ekolite]

And not just that, this is a completely different world and so the conditions are different. Food may be more or less abundant, temperatures may be more or less variable, there are many factors taht could effect it.

Also, your animals evolved in a different way to earth wolves, so they would have different mentalties and things, regardless of how similiar they are they are not the same.

What's the point of making an animal as similiar as possible to a real life animal anyway?

 

[Vertinari118]

They are more intelligent and sociably actually but I never got round to posting my description of Callidas. The Lupus roam the environments of modern wolves if you read the updates with the same temperatures. They are the apex predator as are modern wolves and can prey on most animals with few enemies. The social structure is the same right down to the language. Just a few points to consider. I thought social structure was in the hands of the player to a large degree and a small population should not inhibit the formation of packs it should bolster it. I am going to start twisting it around soon but its easier to start with a real life template. Won't argue any more. Points accepted.

 

[Daftpanzer]

EDIT: another issue is cross-breeding between related species. This hasn't been in the game before, but maybe it should be in some cases. Those species with attractive displays etc could also spawn a set of hybrid species, not NPC's but listed under whichever player created one or both 'parent' species, and valid for recieving bonuses etc.

Can I just say, I was in a poor state of mind when I wrote that

Tribal.. hmm, while we have developed a very deep world, how many different "sentient" creatures could you deal with and balance as viable civilizations?

Aside from the lack of realism, I don't see any great issue with handling multiple 'races'. I know it would be unusual among NESes, but maybe in a good way. Hopefully the players who evolved the original species may contribute some background ideas!

I think the evolved Manorixes (Manorices? Manorids?) will be the most human-like (which is not really very human-like!). Then there's the Kakleias and the underwater Kathulus. So that’s three tribal species each with the possibility of creating some kind of civilization.

I see the Jubbleras remaining as a 'mindless' hive society, not really like the others, but still capable of waging 'wars' against them.

I imagine things evolving and developing slowly, slower than early humans for instance, so its not so miraculous that they all coexist at the same time. EG, Kathulus might evolve their underwater culture first and be around awhile before the others (if that’s not too much of a Lovecraftian cliché )

I really don't like the idea of including magic. I know this isn't very realistic, but its still within the realms of sense...

Well, we don't have to call it magic… It wouldn't be in the tribal game, but for a new evolution game I'm thinking of giving players influence over climate and continent movements as well as evolution.

Great ideas Daft. If we start this tribal stage would players be able to continue evolving species or would we have to choose a tribal one? The Lupus are ascending to sapience slowly. Next turn I was planning on having them shift toward bipedalism and increase their intelligence further and then... Also Daft what gave you the idea that the packs are small? In bad time they are often non-existent or only eight individuals but in good times they number 20 or 30 individuals. A pack could wipe out a village in a few hours if it wanted to. I would not mind sprite art but I request the awesome wolf sprite from NEB for the Lupus.

In terms of the timescale, the tribal stage may zoom forward 3-8 eras from the last update. There could be some kind of mini-game to get to that point, where evolution is possible in terms of both physical and social stuff.

About the social groups, I was thinking more of 100+ individuals being 'large social groups'...

So, as of Era 35, the Lupus Argentum is the best land predator overall, but IMO it would still struggle (to put it mildly) against the large Scuterids (like lions vs a herd of elephants - the only real chance is a young, sick or weak one on its own) and then there's bigger, slower predators around like the Megalithavalion and Phobonyte that can kill a Lupus. I can see the Lupus line evolving to get bigger, stronger, more social and have more intelligent hunting tactics. But that still begs the question why exactly they'd become bipedal or start to use tools etc.

I'd like to give you some input on how things get to the tribal stage, but I'll have to draw the line somewhere... So it would probably be a fight for the spot occupied by your cousins, the Kakleia descendents (which get their grasping hands and social groups from omnivorous lifestyle in the trees). I can't imagine both becoming 'tribal' species.

Personally, I dislike the sprite graphics but I understand the need for simplification. Maybe the tribal species could have full art and other, less important ones could just use sprite art?

I think I'd continue with the Flash style art for a tribal game, it would allow graphics of older species to be thrown in when appropriate. I'd also find it interesting drawing tools, houses, artefacts etc, even tribal beings in various costumes... I'd imagine it would still be easier than drawing 20+ species each time.

I tried some more pixel art today (+various easy effects), figuring if I could draw humans then I could draw pretty much anything. The pose is all messed up here, so I dunno, but it still took less time in total than I'd spend on the average Flash creature. I'll do some more experiments actually drawing creatures and stuff this way.

In the past I've tried 'hybrid' graphics, starting with basic Flash drawings and then editing in a paint program, for various abandoned projects. That was OK for spaceships but I dunno about living things

 

[Lord_Iggy]

I'm liking the tribal idea more and more.