Tomorrow (4-16)
New Beta Version - April 14th (4/14)
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Tomorrow (4-16)
AndreyK
King
I still think that nerf to Opera Houses and circuses are bad decision and not needed, those buildings were fine and fun, adding interest to game, interest to build them. I think that changes for (just one type of victory) tourism game don't justify it. I think loss of culture means a lot more, for me culture is not all about tourism victory, it takes too much interest and joy away.
Would be very nice if there would be some switch on/off.
Would be very nice if there would be some switch on/off.
Noob Fanboy
Warlord
- Joined
- Dec 25, 2017
- Messages
- 285
The nerf to Circuses will affect the possibility of getting certain wonders (I liked to focus Learning Tower of Pisa while focusing on getting Circus on all cities by the time i finish the tech)
youngsteve
King
Does anyone have an answer regarding 'owned ice is passable for everybody'. Does this include other friendly civs with open borders, enemy civs, missionaries, or anyone else. If so this could have a bad effect on CS on the poles, who might be surrounded by ice, which is the only thing protecting them. Can you attack from ice like other terrain?
Standard Immortal Communitas_79 as America. Lost (to Egypt CV) on Turn 355.
So decided to give the new America a spin. I went for the double wonder rush (Stonehenge + Beauty pantheon and then Pyramids), which I managed to pull of on Turn 37. Managed a 7 city pressed against Polynesia and France.
I bonded with Polynesia and Babylon over our mutual hatred of France. Well France hated me too, and a world rivalry was spawned.
France was made that I forward settled him and cut him off, and so he decided to make him an eternal enemy this game. War, peace, war, peace, war-peace, all game long. Probably one of the biggest war slogs I have had in a while, I had a long stretch of war with France as he get his Musketeers, all the way through my Minutemen and G Guns. I would kill 20 of his units, the coast seemed clear, and I would tentatively move in, and then freaking musketeer commandos from out of nowhere would side hit me and snag a few units. I pull back, we do the dance again. 7 times we did this dance, until finally I managed to take Paris.
We then danced again after a previous 10 turn recess. With massed Ranged G Guns, there is nothing he can do to stop me, but killing wave after wave after wave, with some more waves of his units didn't perturb him, and once he had Riflemen, I actually started to have to pull back again. I kept going "this is the army of the last place scorer! I guess he is built nothing but army this game"
Ultimately I wanted to see what the new tourism looked like if I "casually" pursed it. I'll give more notes below, but basically I did nothing special in the early game (artistry was the only thing I did special, and I've been wanting to do more artistry play anyway). It wasn't until a bit later that I started adding in Musician concerts to see how far I could push things.
But all of my effort was a distraction, as Egypt roared ahead on all cylinders (I have seen a lot of Egypt runaways as a note, I know there has been some discussing on him in the leader threads recently but he is no pushover in AI hands). I was fully committed against France, and Egypt just cruised into a super easy CV. Game Over!
My Notes
Tourism: So for context, let me show you Egypt and my Tourism boards.
Its just one play, but balance wise I think Tourism is overturned at the moment. It seems very easy to amass a lot of tourism even with minimal effort, and you can see how fast Egypt got his. That said, I am a big fan of the new paradigm. The scaling feels better, tourism does kick in earlier (I managed familiar and even popular early on due to my religion spread), the UI makes more sense now, the fact that wide is not crushing tourism is great....I am a big fan. I also like how you get some interesting strategy with the musician, sometimes you want to get a work before the concert, but its still useful to start the concert (for example if your previous durations is going to run out), and then add on another work to increase your base tourism for the multiplier. So the musician has this cool thing where you can bounce back and forth between works and concerts and it feels "useful", as compared to most specialists where its all GPTI and then all bulbs.
Spying: Ultimately spies did seem to move quicker, but ultimately they were just a dying a lot after a couple of techs steals, so I really didn't feel any true "improvement" here. We will see what the next game holds.
America: The reduction in plot cost (from -50 to -25) did keep things in check pretty well. I was only able to purchase 2 tiles per wonder during my double rush. The resets did make tile buying a bit more favorable, but not as much as I might have feared. In taking cathedrals and tithes, you just only have so much gold at that point in time, and the plot yields scale up quick. I still never bought an opponent's tile, they are way too expensive. The time I did really notice the difference was making my one Pioneer colony. The reset there left me with a lot of cheap tiles to buy in my colony, which let me jump start the colony quickly. So that felt good from the "pioneer theme" standpoint. At the end of the day, the changes feel good but its nothing dramatic, this doesn't change the face of the civ.
Desert Open Terrain: It definitely takes some getting used to, but I didn't hate that desert is 1 movement once I got the hang of it. I had some interesting skirmisher wars in that patch of desert between France and I. But you can get some crazy fast movement with desert walker barbs, and I think the majority of people would rather go back than keep it. That's a real shame, and I hope some smart people can figure out how we can have the cake and eat it too. Probably the crudest but easiest method (at least for skirmishers) would just add another promotion on skirmishers that gives them a +60% RCS on desert (call it "Desert Agility", which combined with their -20% on rough would balance the books). It doesn't help the other promotions though, but it helps the most important one.
Freedom: First time I took freedom in a while, partly to push for the CV myself and partly because there have been concerns about its weakness. So having given it another good look, I agree there are some weaknesses, I'll note them in general balance.
Spoiler :
So decided to give the new America a spin. I went for the double wonder rush (Stonehenge + Beauty pantheon and then Pyramids), which I managed to pull of on Turn 37. Managed a 7 city pressed against Polynesia and France.
I bonded with Polynesia and Babylon over our mutual hatred of France. Well France hated me too, and a world rivalry was spawned.
France was made that I forward settled him and cut him off, and so he decided to make him an eternal enemy this game. War, peace, war, peace, war-peace, all game long. Probably one of the biggest war slogs I have had in a while, I had a long stretch of war with France as he get his Musketeers, all the way through my Minutemen and G Guns. I would kill 20 of his units, the coast seemed clear, and I would tentatively move in, and then freaking musketeer commandos from out of nowhere would side hit me and snag a few units. I pull back, we do the dance again. 7 times we did this dance, until finally I managed to take Paris.
We then danced again after a previous 10 turn recess. With massed Ranged G Guns, there is nothing he can do to stop me, but killing wave after wave after wave, with some more waves of his units didn't perturb him, and once he had Riflemen, I actually started to have to pull back again. I kept going "this is the army of the last place scorer! I guess he is built nothing but army this game"
Ultimately I wanted to see what the new tourism looked like if I "casually" pursed it. I'll give more notes below, but basically I did nothing special in the early game (artistry was the only thing I did special, and I've been wanting to do more artistry play anyway). It wasn't until a bit later that I started adding in Musician concerts to see how far I could push things.
But all of my effort was a distraction, as Egypt roared ahead on all cylinders (I have seen a lot of Egypt runaways as a note, I know there has been some discussing on him in the leader threads recently but he is no pushover in AI hands). I was fully committed against France, and Egypt just cruised into a super easy CV. Game Over!
My Notes
Tourism: So for context, let me show you Egypt and my Tourism boards.
Spoiler :
Its just one play, but balance wise I think Tourism is overturned at the moment. It seems very easy to amass a lot of tourism even with minimal effort, and you can see how fast Egypt got his. That said, I am a big fan of the new paradigm. The scaling feels better, tourism does kick in earlier (I managed familiar and even popular early on due to my religion spread), the UI makes more sense now, the fact that wide is not crushing tourism is great....I am a big fan. I also like how you get some interesting strategy with the musician, sometimes you want to get a work before the concert, but its still useful to start the concert (for example if your previous durations is going to run out), and then add on another work to increase your base tourism for the multiplier. So the musician has this cool thing where you can bounce back and forth between works and concerts and it feels "useful", as compared to most specialists where its all GPTI and then all bulbs.
Spying: Ultimately spies did seem to move quicker, but ultimately they were just a dying a lot after a couple of techs steals, so I really didn't feel any true "improvement" here. We will see what the next game holds.
America: The reduction in plot cost (from -50 to -25) did keep things in check pretty well. I was only able to purchase 2 tiles per wonder during my double rush. The resets did make tile buying a bit more favorable, but not as much as I might have feared. In taking cathedrals and tithes, you just only have so much gold at that point in time, and the plot yields scale up quick. I still never bought an opponent's tile, they are way too expensive. The time I did really notice the difference was making my one Pioneer colony. The reset there left me with a lot of cheap tiles to buy in my colony, which let me jump start the colony quickly. So that felt good from the "pioneer theme" standpoint. At the end of the day, the changes feel good but its nothing dramatic, this doesn't change the face of the civ.
Desert Open Terrain: It definitely takes some getting used to, but I didn't hate that desert is 1 movement once I got the hang of it. I had some interesting skirmisher wars in that patch of desert between France and I. But you can get some crazy fast movement with desert walker barbs, and I think the majority of people would rather go back than keep it. That's a real shame, and I hope some smart people can figure out how we can have the cake and eat it too. Probably the crudest but easiest method (at least for skirmishers) would just add another promotion on skirmishers that gives them a +60% RCS on desert (call it "Desert Agility", which combined with their -20% on rough would balance the books). It doesn't help the other promotions though, but it helps the most important one.
Freedom: First time I took freedom in a while, partly to push for the CV myself and partly because there have been concerns about its weakness. So having given it another good look, I agree there are some weaknesses, I'll note them in general balance.
Quick question about tourism : does the +x% tourism from diplomat work in your games? It doesn't in mine.
Grassland Farm
Prince
Blast it. I started a game yesterday and it wasn't crashing, yet I decided to start a new one because I wanted to toggle Milae's difficulty mod off... and now it's crashing every time.
Quick fix coming April 16th (Which is today my time, but I guess that'll mean gaming tomorrow morning for me
).\Skodkim
Update posted. Fixes CTDs and phantom citizens; restores 5% to Opera House; reduces base tourism on GW by 1.
Link: https://mega.nz/folder/2Jdw3aQT#Z49gV7KAyMq6YiG5BD9jaA
G
Link: https://mega.nz/folder/2Jdw3aQT#Z49gV7KAyMq6YiG5BD9jaA
G
youngsteve
King
Are you able to carry on with a saved game, or do you have to start again.
DizzKneeLand33
Fall from Heaven 2 still rocks
It looks like it is not gamesave compatible (at least from my personal experience just now).
You should be able to - not sure why it would matter, memory values weren't touched.
youngsteve
King
I am only playing with the basic setup & infoaddict, which I don't believe was the cause of the problems, but thought I would ask.
Thank you & others for the time you have spent putting the new version out in the first place.
yeah I can say that worked tiles is not that intuitive a mechanic, it also has weird scenarios where the governors choice of tile has big military applications, which is weird.
how about an alternative. Minefields: enemy ships take 10 damage if they are in your borders and adjacent it a friendly naval unit.
So it turns our ships into “little citadels” within our borders, which is an obvious thing the player can see and manipulate. This allows a small naval force to counter a larger one, but at the same time encourages defensive players to build “some” navy, instead of staying into the water and letting the land handle all the defense.
amateurgamer88
Emperor
- Joined
- Aug 24, 2018
- Messages
- 1,612
I'm curious about your thoughts. Do you think 10 damage is too much? How many turns do you think you'll need to take a coastal city after clearing most of their naval units?
So a combination of things.
As far as against the "Adjacent to Worked Tiles delivers 10 damage"
- Its very off and on. So the navy comes in an takes some damage, then I lose the worked tiles. But then the ships move around again and one of my water tiles opens up...and so if I look at my city every single turn (yawn) maybe I can add a worker back in the water, which turns the bonus back on, until its turns off again by more ship movement. Very finnicky.
- Your initial position is a big deal. So if I or my governor have decided to work a lot of water, than the first turn that navy is going to be hurting. But if I am not working the water, than the enemy comes in and takes no penalty at all. Civ does not have your military power depending on how you place your workers, and we shouldn't really start.
- UI wise its completely opaque. As the attacker I have 0 idea of where my ships will take damage and where they won't. Combine that with the on/off again nature of the mechanic, and it can seem downright arbitrary as far as when I take damage. That is not a good user experience.
So to your questions. Is 10 damage a lot? 10 damage once isn't too bad, but 20 damage over 2 turns is a good amount (that's basically a free ranged attack on each ship), and 30 damage over 3 turns is a very big deal. How long to take a coastal city once the navy is gone?, depends on the city. An island, like 2-3 turns. A well defended coast....7-10. 5-6 turns for something in the middle.
The idea I just posted (turn naval ships -> little citadels), the reason I like it more is its very obvious what is going on. I parked my ships next to the enemy's ship in his territory, and took 10 damage. Perfect, that means I don't want to do that! I know what to avoid, and how to maneuver for best possible result. On the flip side as the defender, my defending ships become a lot stronger, I basically do an extra 10 damage to an enemy melee ship that hits me (that is a very strong boost in CS terms). Or if I go on the offensive, all of my melee ships deal an extra 10 damage to their side, and often against ranged ship, a single melee attack is sometimes just a little bit off from an actual kill, but an extra 10 damage could finish the job.
I also like it because it encourages a little navy. One of the issue right now with navy is its often very all or nothing. A big navy, fine makes sense. A small one....doesn't do anything, and still costs a bit to maintain, so its often better to just avoid navy all together and focus on the land. But with this minefield model, now a little navy can get magnified on the defense, so it can be worth having a small navy to magnify the power of the minefield. That creates "combined arms play", which is much more interesting than just "more city defense".
So all of that said, for those who don't like the combined arms style, and just want their minefield to work period, than I would suggest a "Great Wall" treatment. Have ships take 15 damage when they first enter the border, but then no penalty after that. So you get some softening damage, but no risk of ongoing damage that could cripple a navy. This mechanically is a much better user experience, again they know exactly when and why they are taking damage (aka entering the border), so they can time and plan that accordingly. You could argue this also makes more sense in flavor. Mine fielding your entire waters is not usually a smart plan, but mining the area right around your controlled waters, makes a bit more sense.
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amateurgamer88
Emperor
- Joined
- Aug 24, 2018
- Messages
- 1,612
I get why we want a smaller navy to be more effective but this minefield model seems to be "I see you have a bigger navy so I'm gonna neutralize it somewhat easily but building this single building." At that rate, you compare the production of the two sides and it's so cost effective for the defender side. If you add humans into the picture, it seems like a huge advantage for humans over AI. This seems more the case with the "combined arms play" where humans can abuse it better.
I'm actually in favor of your "enter and get damaged" approach. However, the damage has to be lower or it still seems like one building can turn the tide of naval fight. I don't giving one building that much power.
Didn't there use to be a "BALANCE_CORE_SETTLER_MOVE" option in CustomModOptions?
IIRC it prevented settlers from minor civilizations from moving at startup, i.e. you could place city states where you wanted using e.g. IGE. Can't find it anywhere.
\Skodkim
IIRC it prevented settlers from minor civilizations from moving at startup, i.e. you could place city states where you wanted using e.g. IGE. Can't find it anywhere.
\Skodkim
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