New Beta Version - August 16th (8/16)

Status
Not open for further replies.
I checked Iklwa's GainsXPFromSpotting in PromotionChanges.xml, and it's just "true". I guess it's just hardcoded to 2xp per turn?

Not exactly doubled, but DifficultyBonusBase was increased from (0, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 7, 9) to (0, 2, 4, 6, 8, 10, 12, 14).
 
This feels terrible and will force razing cities. Can't we just have it so the puppet city won't work any specialists that it doesn't have the happiness for? The trade off for keeping a city as a growing puppet for a long time is that it is a puppet - no control, reduced yields. What everyone else above me said.

Considering that it has been this way for over a year, I disagree.


G
 
I was actually not aware that puppets could generate Urbanization, I was wondering where my excess urbanization was coming from. Puppets are a guaranteed unhappiness drain already and are kind of the reason why your empire can often be perpetually below 50% happiness, and they're usually a gold drain as they produce a mere 20% of yields but pay full maintenance on buildings. I think they've been nerfed enough and don't need this random element that can fluctuate unhappiness.
 
Standard Immortal Communitas_79 as Celts. SV on Turn 375.

Spoiler :

upload_2020-8-31_0-17-9.png



This one was a generic win, nothing much to right home about, so just a few notes.

1) The biggest note is, with all of the reports of super bribing wars (including from myself), this game was dead quiet. I had a major war with Netherlands on our continents, and after what felt like a 50 turn siege (my god Tradition capitals are hard to take!), I had secure the vassal and the continent. I didn't have a single war after that, everyone was decently friendly to me. So I don't know if it was the isolated location or what that made everyone so passive, but it was a starkly different game from what I've had on the version so far.

2) The other note in this game was while Siam and I were the clear frontrunners, tech wise there were actually 4 civs in the top tier. So there was a lot of tech trading going on. At first the deals were reasonable, and by that I meant they charge me an arm and a leg for them, but it was a high price that I was willing to pay to catch up to Siam. However, as the game went on and we got friendlier and friendly, the prices went down, to the point where the Inca actually just straight up traded me a tech for a tech (I haven't seen that in what feels like a year+ !). I wonder if they recognized Siam as the threat (which at that point he was), and so were willing to work with me to catch up. If it was that smart, then kudos!

3) I do think its time for a nerf to Hubble. 2 GS is just too much at that point in the game, it near blasts you through the rest of the tech tree. For one it speeds up SV too much, but also you lose the enjoyment of those last few techs.... they move so quick you barely register them. This game I was almost done with the tech tree by the time I got CERN. I say drop the GS to 1, its still a great boost, and a +25% faster SS part speed is actually a very strong bonus at this point in the game.

4) I am greatly enjoying the new dealmaking over all. While there are still rough spots to work out (I do think there is some weird quadratic thing going on where I will get 1 GPT for a strategic, but like 400 GPT for 20), in general the deal making is clearly smarter and more engaging. Its nice for the AI to come to me and try to "drain" my excess strategics with deals....my vassals are actually willing to trade votes with me now (again at a stiff price, but one I can work with), and yes getting to renew my open border deals before they expire is a godsend!

5) Happiness was a real issue all game. I had 12 cities (no puppets), and could never get happiness to save my life, even in second place in score. I danced around the 35% mark for basically the entire game. I got to 50% one time right after the Renaissance opener where you meet everyone and get all of their luxs, but after that it crept back down.

Even building 21 Public Works (I did an exact count), and made all landmarks in my territory, I could never move the needle. hehe, if you look at the screenshot, you'll notice the Happy system left me one going away present. My happy dipped for 1 turn, and out popped 3 barbs, on the exact turn I had to move my SS parts into the capital! Fortunately the parts had GDR bodyguards and so it wasn't an issue.

Not being able to get to 50% with so much work was annoying, but on the other hand I did win pretty convincingly at those levels, and I never got into "death spiral" territory, so perhaps that just the price you pay for 12 cities on standard.

6) Early game, the Netherlands did not escort their settlers well at all. I managed to snag 3 of them, which was one of the keys for me surrounding and then destroying the civ.
 
Last edited:
About unhappiness and puppets. I'm agree with most here.

Playing as Shaka (Aut/Fealty/Imperialism) on King with only 3 puppets and 11 cities (6 core, 3 enemy capitals + 2 enemy cities) I started dipping in unhappiness (35-38%). I had to started multiple public works and fast (4th capital on my continent falling in 10 turns or less) since I need to secure the last three capitals on the other continent where Persia and Hwratha are on par with me tech wise.

The razing is almost better after I have some sort of contiguity land wise to move troops around. Selling back the cities can be a good strategy but then AIs carpet with their units and I'll have trouble to move mine around.
 
I agree with others on puppet cities using specialists. What's the point? With the exception of Engineers in low-hammer cities (which is very reasonable), I can't rationalise that city wanting specialists in the first place.
And if one of you, say, gets caught and the AI demands you move your troops or the other player declares war on you, your ally will go to war with you immediately rather than just leaving you to the wolves.

I agree that not being able to back out if you promise to attack sounds like a good change! I think it makes sense for the AI to sometimes declare war before the 10-turn counter is up though. For example of the player you're planning to attack sends a great prophet into your territory. I don't think the player should be roped in before you've had time to prepare if that's the case though. If you're going to declare war soon anyway I don't see that as leaving them to the wolves. Especially if they are the one who declared war early in the first place.

Happy to test the changes though, sounds like you have good intentions :).
Is it correct that they don't get Arenas or Unversities for free?

I think that's correct, from my memory at least.
 
Regarding Puppets and Happiness for wide play:
According to my theoretical analysis and personal experience Puppets hurt you without Martial Law and merely become neutral with Martial Law.
I think annexing all Cities is much better if you follow a barbell-like strategy for building Public Works.
More details below.

1. Yields from Puppets

Let us assume for a second that a City only produces Gold, Science, and Culture and that each of these Yields has the same utility value of 1 (Gold, Science, and Culture output of a City are all equally useful).
Let us further assume that the net Gold utility of Gold is the combination of -2 utility from Building maintenance and +3 utility from Gold production (Building maintenance is equal to 2/3 of raw Gold production).
For a regular City we thus get a net utility of 1 + 1 + 3 - 2 = 3.
For a Puppet without Martial Law all positive utility is cut by 80%, resulting in the following net utility value: 0.2 + 0.2 + 0.6 - 2 = -1.
For a Puppet with Martial Law (60% cut) we get: 0.4 + 0.4 + 1.2 = 0.
Under these assumptions Puppets are actually draining your resources without Martial Law and even with Martial Law they do not give you a net benefit.

Some things that were not considered for this analysis:
  1. Food/Production: these only have localized effects and do not contribute to your empire as a whole. I therefore think they're irrelevant.
  2. Faith: If you have a low number of Cities Puppets are not worthwhile in the first place. If you have a large number of Cities (which you do later in the game) the utility of Faith is low when compared to other Yields. I thus think it can be neglected.
  3. Tourism: If you have a low number of Cities Puppets are not worthwhile in the first place. If you have a large number of Cities you get more Tourism from Annexation than from Puppets. You still get some Tourism from a Puppet though.
  4. Build order: Puppets can have really bad build orders which results in overall lower Yields compared to regular Cities.
  5. Military Utility: Both regular Cities and Puppets provide some military utility but this is hard to quantify. I would argue that regular Cities are a little better though.
2. Puppets vs. Regular Cities in Terms of Culture/Science

Regular Cities increase the amount of Science needed for Technologies/the amount of Culture needed for Policies.
We can expect there to be some number of Cities beyond which it is better to puppet a City than it is to annex it.
However, there are several factors that need to be considered here:
  1. City Yields compared to the Yields of the Cities that you already have: if a City produces almost no Yields making it a Puppet is a better option than if the City produces a lot of Yields.
  2. Map size: the increase in Science/Culture needed for Technologies/Policies per City depends on the size of the map. On a small map a Puppet is better than on a large map.
  3. Martial Law: The Policy Martial Law found in the Imperialism branch doubles the amount of Yields that you get from Puppets.
I calculated how good a City needs to be compared to the average of your Cities to make annexation and puppeting equally good.
I have visualized the results in the attached figure (Edit: the original calculation contained a bug that slightly distorted the results; I have uploaded a new image).
The x axis represents the number of Cities including the new City.
The y axis represents how good a new City needs to be compared to your average City to make annexation a better option than puppeting.
A value of 1 means that the City is exactly equal to the average of your Cities, a value of 0.5 means it's half as good as the average of your Cities, etc.
As we can see the difference between map sizes and Policy decisions is very large.
Also note that I did not take yields from sources like killing Units or City States into account.

3. My Strategy for going Ultra-Wide

Each non-puppeted City that you own increases the Needs modifier in your Cities by 9% (independently of map size).
If no countermeasures are taken a large empire will therefore become increasingly unhappy as it gains Cities.
Public Works can reduce Unhappiness to some extent but I think it doesn't fulfill the purpose it was added for.
If I remember correctly its purpose was to be a last resort for unhappy Cities.
However, if you only start building it once Unhappiness starts to become a problem it is basically useless.
Cities that are unhappy typically have very large Need deficits so if you build Public Works in such a City the Happiness and the Needs reduction has literally no effect.
You need to build a lot of Public Works to get any effect, but once you do you can quickly eliminate all Unhappiness from Needs.
Conversely, if you build Public Works in a City that is already pretty happy you get immediate benefits without the need for a large up-front investment.
This has led me to develop a barbell-like strategy for dealing with Unhappiness: instead of trying to make all of my Cities kind of happy I only try to keep some percentage of my Cities very happy while completely neglecting Happiness in all other Cities; as long as I have more total Happiness than I have total Unhappiness I do not suffer any penalties.
In practice this means delegating some Cities to build Buildings and Public Works while delegating other Cities to build Buildings and Units.
(In case it isn't obvious: you also need to build as many Factories as possible to get enough Production.)
With the above strategy I was able to control ~40 non-Puppet Cities while staying at ~60% Happiness.
Keep in mind that the above strategy needs a lot of long-term planning and experience to pull off well; when in doubt designate too many Cities to building Public Works rather than too few.
Alternatively just found TwoKay Foods to completely eliminate Unhappiness (but I don't know if that is intended).

4. Changes That I Think Would Improve Ultra-Wide Gameplay

I think one or more of the following changes would lead to improved gameplay for games where you control 20+ Cities:
  1. Reduce Building maintenance of Puppets: if the Building Maintenance of Puppets were reduced by the same amount that their yields are reduced they would no longer drain your Gold. The Unhappiness from Puppets doesn't seem like that much of a problem to me.
  2. Change the local Happiness from Public Works to empire-wide Happiness: currently a lot of the Happiness that you get from Public Works simply gets swallowed up by the deficits. If the Happiness was instead empire-wide the benefits you get from Public Works would be much smoother and it would be a better option when you're already in a bad situation in terms of Happiness.
  3. Change the local Needs reduction of Public Works to a global Needs reduction: with the current system you would need to build some amount of Public Works in every City for each new City that you annex/found. If Public Works were to instead provide a global needs reduction you would only need to build a roughly constant amount of public works for each new City that you annex/found. The cost increase per Public Works built could also be made global.
  4. To reduce snowballing if any of the above measures are taken: remove the synergy between Factories to reduce the amount of production available for wide strategies. If you have a lot of Cities you already have an advantage in terms of Production because you need to build fewer Units per City.
 

Attachments

  • annexation_vs_puppeting_2.png
    annexation_vs_puppeting_2.png
    78.8 KB · Views: 41
Last edited:
A long while ago I recommended that the % increase of science/culture per new city should not change with map size, and your post makes me feel more sure of that opinion. It's already overly complex, but there is no reason we should have such despairity on puppeting choices on map sizes. It makes no sense. As far as I'm concerned map size should not affect the benefits of a new city, especially since larger maps should have more AI and lead to similar amounts of cities. (And visa-versa.)
 
Who is looking at the WC logic? I had an AI with like a crap ton of World Wonders vote Nay for Cultural Heritage sites (the one that gives +2 to World Wonders) which was proposed by some other AI. That just seems weird
 

Attachments

  • 20200831165246_1.jpg
    20200831165246_1.jpg
    182.9 KB · Views: 39
That's debatable. Part of the point of playing on larger maps for me is that on average you have more space.
We had such discussions already.
Player density is balanced for standard. If you want to play huge balanced maps, you have to increase the number of players, otherwise you are playing with too low player density. It is like playing standard maps with only 6 or 7 players.
 
We had such discussions already.
Player density is balanced for standard. If you want to play huge balanced maps, you have to increase the number of players, otherwise you are playing with too low player density. It is like playing standard maps with only 6 or 7 players.

Adding "more players" sounds easy enough but exacerbates a slew of other concerns already present in huge maps.
-There's too much competition for wonders
-Too few religions
-Great works run out
-Lag

Me personally I play Huge with 15 players and accept that the randomness of the map will sometimes place me in too sparse or too cramped situations. There usually is space for 8 alright cities per player. Which I think is in accordance with the huge map mechanics that are currently in place. Of course some things are different but that's how the game is, I don't think I saw anything really gamebreaking besides Order Nationalisation with a ton of cities back when it counted for two Franchises.
 
That's debatable. Part of the point of playing on larger maps for me is that on average you have more space.
What's the % increase to social policy and technology costs on large? I think ElliotS might have the right idea for the wrong reason. Going wide with each city increasing by 1 more % would be a huge deal.
 
I'm playing with these new resource distributions. My initial reaction is I don't like them, but I want to be fair.

Could anyone point me towards the discussion that lead to this? I can't find it and I'd like to read the reasons for the change. Thanks.
 
We had such discussions already.
Player density is balanced for standard. If you want to play huge balanced maps, you have to increase the number of players, otherwise you are playing with too low player density. It is like playing standard maps with only 6 or 7 players.

Why? Shouldn't I be able to play the kind of game I enjoy? I never claimed that it was balanced the same as the standard settings. If I wanted that I wouldn't have chosen to play on a Huge map.

If you choose settings that are non-standard, it's reasonable to expect things are going to be different. There are more partners to trade with, more city-states to recieve quests from, and as Deljade pointed out much more competition for wonders and religion. More to the point, even with the same civ density, larger empires are naturally going to exist because there's more territory to conquer. That's without getting into specifics like the costs and benefits to Authority, and Polynesia's UA.
What's the % increase to social policy and technology costs on large?

I honestly don't know, sorry.
 
Last edited:
For puppets with specialist: think about it like the governor selecting tiles. The governor in puppets selects specialists. So would any reasonable governor work a 1 science, -2 food, -1 happiness tile? It just doesn't make sense as a governor selection.

Though now considering @Voremonger 's points, perhaps other changes should be made.

Because it's supposed to imperfect. It's a puppet. If it made perfect choices then the whole "lack of control" aspect is pointless.

Edit: honestly we need to be careful at messing with the whole raze/puppet/anex balance at this point. They all are fairly ok options depending on your situation. Do we really want puppeting to be the go to choice? Everytime? I already use it a lot when doing massive warmongering. There has to be a downside to taking a bunch of cities. Seems like some people want to just remove it.
 
Last edited:
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top Bottom