New Beta Version - August 21st (8-21b)

[Legen]

If it's hard to agree on a promotion for Alhambra, we could consider some other benefit that Authority would enjoy. For instance, it could give yields on kills and/or city capture, much like Sankore gives Tradition yields on great person birth.

 

[Guynemer]

or it could halve the XP penalty for purchasing units (ie. 3/4 xp for purchased units on empire). Neither idea got much excitement.

I think the problem there is that it would be made obsolete by the Freedom policy that grants purchased units their full XP.

I do agree that the +15XP is somewhat underwhelming in the context of the Barracks-Armory-Military Academy line.

 

[Stalker0]

I think orders is often underestimated, also doesn’t it drop distress? That’s pretty huge

 

[Legen]

I think orders is often underestimated, also doesn’t it drop distress? That’s pretty huge

It does. The thing about orders is that it has no other yield besides faith, so it reduces unhappiness less than other faith buildings.

 

[Rekk]

I think orders is often underestimated, also doesn’t it drop distress? That’s pretty huge

Yeah, Orders do a lot. A single Order in your capital city is good (eg from St. Basil), but it doesn't come close to having Orders in many cities.

 

[Takagi Hiro]

Orders are great simply on the merit that you don't have to worry about training a decent military from a single heroic epic city. The morale promotion has always been an annoyance to me, since it feels like the unit isn't at its highest potential unless it has it. Orders really shine if you're not spreading your religion, since this also means the AI won't be able to take advantage of them. I generally only pass them up if I'm playing a tradition game, since in that case, I usually AM building a military from a single city, and the other three or four just work on everything else.

 

[Rafs]

Orders are pretty good if you have war in the horizon, it will help you maintain very good amount of faith generation to spread/maintain your religion, to buy GPs and if you go zealotry you can buy powerful full xp units every turn, without needing the requried building (good for conquest). I think the "problem" is there are other religious buildings offering very good bonuses (mandirs, cathedrals, mosques are all very powerful too imho), so people look at orders and you can replace it's most unique component (morale everywhere) by building/buying units in the city with heroic epic. Only downside for me when it comes to orders is it's not very attractive for small civs, but the scalability is probably the best any religious building can offer imho.

Regarding Alhambra, maybe a pillage bonus for all units could be attractive (bit of science/culture on pillage for all units on the empire? I know vikings promotion already covers the pillaged tiles so it would feel like less unique), it's something used for warmongering and not for deffensive purposes, so I think it could be fitting for an honor wonder.

 

[Kim Dong Un]

Orders are pretty good if you have war in the horizon, it will help you maintain very good amount of faith generation to spread/maintain your religion, to buy GPs and if you go zealotry you can buy powerful full xp units every turn, without needing the requried building (good for conquest). I think the "problem" is there are other religious buildings offering very good bonuses (mandirs, cathedrals, mosques are all very powerful too imho), so people look at orders and you can replace it's most unique component (morale everywhere) by building/buying units in the city with heroic epic. Only downside for me when it comes to orders is it's not very attractive for small civs, but the scalability is probably the best any religious building can offer imho.

Yup, I was just having fun using Zulu to combo Orders, Ikanda, Hero Worship, and Zealotry. It's devastating synergy. Let's just say the AI wasn't having a great time...

Regarding Alhambra, maybe a pillage bonus for all units could be attractive (bit of science/culture on pillage for all units on the empire? I know vikings promotion already covers the pillaged tiles so it would feel like less unique), it's something used for warmongering and not for deffensive purposes, so I think it could be fitting for an honor wonder.

Prora also does this already for Autocracy.

 

[pineappledan]

I think the problem there is that it would be made obsolete by the Freedom policy that grants purchased units their full XP.

yes, and drop the freedom policy to 3/4 XP on purchased units too. So you have to have both Brandenburg and the freedom policy to get full XP on purchased units.

That freedom policy is OP anyways; it more than deserves the nerf

Right now, Brandenburg is simply a horrid wonder, especially after the H Epic change. Basils’ free order gives comparable bonuses on top of St Basils’ actual wonder bonuses. The wonder’s only real value is its large supply boost

 

[Rafs]

Prora also does this already for Autocracy.

I know, but I think Prora comes in way too late (specially compared to the other 2 ideology wonders). Imho it has the weakest bonus of all 3 wonders as autocracy civs will have to go wider than most, and the happiness is tied to policies, and the culture is less noticeable if you go wide. The free policy is very strong though, but any ideological wonder provides this.
Anyway, I just though culture/science was a nice yield since it doesn't need to be tied to a city to work (and you already get gold). Maybe people prefer something related to combat. Personally I though the drill bonus was very nice, but it could be made more useful for the AI.

yes, and drop the freedom policy to 3/4 XP on purchased units too. So you have to have both Brandenburg and the freedom policy to get full XP on purchased units.

That freedom policy is OP anyways; it more than deserves the nerf

I think the policy is only OP because it's merged with the supply increase in a same policy (and that supply increase is very nice). I think it would be fairer if the full xp on purchase would be on the tier 2 policy that gives 15% unit production, and the unit production was on the supply policy. When I play freedom I usually try to buy most of my units as most of the time cities are busy building what I'm unlocking. It would make Arsenal of democracy a bit more attractive as a tier 2 policy, but maybe people usually pick it and I'm the one that is missing on it.

Right now, Brandenburg is simply a horrid wonder, especially after the H Epic change. Basils’ free order gives comparable bonuses on top of St Basils’ actual wonder bonuses. The wonder’s only real value is its large supply boost

I personally like Brandenburg, the GG is almost always very nice and I appreciate the extra XP when it comes to training ranged units/airplanes. Only exception would be if I am either Rome (tons of ggs) or playing heavy faith generating civs with zealotry and orders, or a civ with good GPT and honor + autocracy (as you get much more xp on training, and more combat xp too), then I usually buy the mercenary unit available at the specific era and produce the others.
Rest of the time I'm quite happy if I can get Brandenburg. I personally believe there are other wonders that aren't as attractive as Brandenburg in any era (Taj Mahal, Chichen Itza, Notre Dame, Oracle, Cristo Redentor, CN Tower), to me those wonders feel even more "niche" than Brandenburg.

 

[Denn]

Hey, G. I am very much enjoying your latest patches. However, when I produce units, the city becomes stagnated and loses 1 pop when done.

Since when did this change made?

 

[LifeOfBrian]

Denn, this should only happen when you're building settler units. Stagnating was always here, but losing 1 pop when done was implemented only a few patches ago.

 

[tu_79]

Now that you are discussing Alhambra, I guess I'll do some advertising.

Alhambra, the "red castle", is a fortified complex on top of a hill, like many other muslim Casbahs. It includes the castle for the garrison, a small village for the noble courtiers, and the emir (king)'s palace. What makes it stand among other casbahs is its architecture and the water engineering. An aqueduct was built to connect water from the Darro river that flows in a nearby hill. This water is then managed for the fountains and the many sidewalk chanels, where it sings every day. Those guys loved the sight and sound of running water. The promenades here are a fresh experience even in the hottest summer.
The palace itself is profusely ornamented with the written moto of the Umeya family in plasterwork. Most courts have a wide patio surrounded by rooms, except the throne hall which is roofed. These patios and their fountains are what you know about Alhambra when you look at pics.
Near the palace, the Generalife can be found, the summer residence surrounded by gardens. It's architecture is less nasrid and more andalousi. The water is also present here in the Water Stairway and the Court of the main Canal, with its crossing water jets. (Remember, this dates 1300 AC).
Everything in the Alhambra speaks of beauty, an organic growth of buildings that followed the landscape as any modern architect would dream to do, wiggling with streams of water. Everything but Charles V palace. This king ordered a palace to be built inside the conquered fortification, in a romanic renaissance style, a dry and blocky building that looks alien to the place, as a testimony of the triumph of christianity.

With its difficult hills, its water supply and the castle, the place feels pretty safe, but it is not what makes Alhambra stand apart. The major attraction, the palace, is built along the XIV century, when muslim kingdoms were losing to the catholic ones. So it talks of decadence, of a last effort to make it look great. The last standing and proud realm. There all the noble muslims that lost their lands gathered, seeking shelter and joining forces.

If we want to respect its historical value, then Alhambra should give some culture, faith and units from cities following the same religion. Or keep looking for any bonus that might fit authority.

 

[Denn]

Denn, this should only happen when you're building settler units. Stagnating was always here, but losing 1 pop when done was implemented only a few patches ago.

it also happens when i produce units, not just a settler.

 

[LifeOfBrian]

Denn, are you using just the VP mod or any other mods? If only VP, then try to reinstall it. If it still persists, report it on GitHub. I haven't encountered such a problem in my games on this patch.

 

[Cat-du-fromage]

Try to delete your cache, it solves a lot a issues from my experience^^

 

[ridjack]

So Hiawatha just gave me the "Move or Declare" dialogue from this situation:

Spoiler :

He had a Warrior escorting a Settler on the tile immediately NE of the bottom Hoplite on the turn I moved that army where they are now.

Am I missing something? I know with 100% certainty I would not have the option to ask that if I found an army 4-5 tiles away from my nearest tile, and I've never seen the AI do it from so far out either. Feels like I got cheesed.

 

[Kim Dong Un]

So Hiawatha just gave me the "Move or Declare" dialogue from this situation:

Spoiler :

He had a Warrior escorting a Settler on the tile immediately NE of the bottom Hoplite on the turn I moved that army where they are now.

Am I missing something? I know with 100% certainty I would not have the option to ask that if I found an army 4-5 tiles away from my nearest tile, and I've never seen the AI do it from so far out either. Feels like I got cheesed.

I remember @HeathcliffWarriors explaining this recently. Pretty sure the AI actually does take military threat into account starting 5-tiles from their border. You have those Hoplites and an archer precisely within that range, and he's worried.

 

[ridjack]

I remember @HeathcliffWarriors explaining this recently. Pretty sure the AI actually does take military threat into account starting 5-tiles from their border. You have those Hoplites and an archer precisely within that range, and he's worried.

If so, that's quite irritating; I get to watch the AI march a carpet of doom two tiles away from my borders, I know exactly what they're doing, but the option to ask them to move simply never appears.

 

[JamesNinelives]

I personally like Brandenburg, the GG is almost always very nice and I appreciate the extra XP when it comes to training ranged units/airplanes. Only exception would be if I am either Rome (tons of ggs) or playing heavy faith generating civs with zealotry and orders, or a civ with good GPT and honor + autocracy (as you get much more xp on training, and more combat xp too), then I usually buy the mercenary unit available at the specific era and produce the others.
Rest of the time I'm quite happy if I can get Brandenburg. I personally believe there are other wonders that aren't as attractive as Brandenburg in any era (Taj Mahal, Chichen Itza, Notre Dame, Oracle, Cristo Redentor, CN Tower), to me those wonders feel even more "niche" than Brandenburg.

Not really the core discussion here, but I think it's worth pointing out some of the benefits of those wonders. First up being the Oracle, which is one of my all-time favourites. It basically gives you a free tech and then some, which is pretty powerful (compare to the Great Library in the same era). I've seen AIs piggy-back from Great Library to Oracle to get a lead of 4 or 5 techs over the rest of the AIs, which is a big deal. Personally I find Great Library is heavily contested so I don't worry about it so much, but always try to pick up the Oracle.

Something else that is worth noting is that both the Oracle and Chichen Itza are among the few wonders that grant unhappiness reduction in all cities. The usefulness of this does vary depending on which patch you are playing, but there have been many games where I singled out these wonders to help me keep a large, wide empire happy. The utility of that benefit should not be underestimated.

Chichen Itza does something even more special - it extends golden ages by 50%. That's a big deal! It makes golden age point and golden ages much more worthwhile, and synergises well with Artistry, other wonders that give golden ages, and *especially* Persia's UB.

Moving on, CN gives you a pop boost and free broadcast towers in all your cities. That is absolutely incredible! It's equivalent to probably thousands to tens of thousands food and production, plus the gold saved from not having any maintenance on all those towers. Maybe it's because I play on a Huge map size and therefore have more cities to get the benifits from, but I've always thought of the CN towers as one of the more powerful wonders.

Last up, Taj Mahal and Notre Dame both give you a golden age, which people tend to underestimate. Consider that it's equivalent to a significant boost in gold, production, culture, and science. *And* lots of happiness in your cities. It's even better if you have bonuses related to golden ages, particularly if you stack them. Consider having +25% golden age duration from a resource monopoly, +50% from Chichen Itza, +50% from the Freedom policy, and Persia's UU. Tons of yields, and your army is basically unstoppable.

I know that doesn't apply to everyone. I just wanted to illustrate how those things can be useful. You don't need to stack all the bonuses to make use of Golden Ages, but even just one of two really gives you a lot of bang for your buck.