New Beta Version - August 6th (8/6)

[Stalker0]

Do that thang.

G

My only note on observatories. I would say either the base science bump or the extra specialist is fine, but not both. Rationalism doesn't really need even more science, and that can actually be quite a bit of extra science.

My vote would be just the base bump. We don't really need more GSs

 

[Gazebo]

My only note on observatories. I would say either the base science bump or the extra specialist is fine, but not both. Rationalism doesn't really need even more science, and that can actually be quite a bit of extra science.

My vote would be just the base bump. We don't really need more GSs

It's losing 1/2 of its mountain yields. I think +5 from +3 is fine.

G

 

[ElliotS]

Like, I know you say we're overreacting, but... if I've noticed something, it's that all the people here almost never agree. We love arguing. I'm almost upset we agree, there's nothing to debate! But here, we have the relatively rare situation of everyone coming together to say "Veneration is fine, Inspiration is the problem". I dunno, it just seems unlikely absolutely all of us are so wrong on this. If the AI is overperforming with Veneration, maybe that has something to do with how the AI plays the religious game compared to humans? At the end of the day, we're not AI and human feedback does have to play a role.

I'll trust Gazebo if he says we're over-reacting. Everyone got mad when he suggested ranged boats change, and many others, but those were for the best. If he makes the change and it turns out to be horrible, he'll correct it.

Unnecessary sass aside

You know it's all in good fun.

You can't rebuild/destroy buildings with instant effects, WLTKD included. I honestly think there's quite a bit of overreaction here. Churches are strong passive spreaders, potentially boost missionaries quite a bit (if you find yourself in a situation where that matters), have the highest faith yield of any follower building, give 15 turns of WLTKD (which is a nice companion to a few buildings, UAs, policies, and wonders), and a music slot. How much more do you want a single building to do? Seriously, not every building needs to be a yield monster, some can have a slightly more niche focus and still be okay.

I mean the new code thing is fair, but my suggestion wasn't to add more yields to the building. The goal was to better fill that niche. I think the building is still too scattershot to take. Here's my proposal:
Remove missionary bonus, lower spread a bit, add +3 / while in WLTKD and a 15 turn WLTKD. Keep 4 .

That makes it combo well with Theocratic rule and gives a reason to build it soon rather than waiting until you're on a bad resource for WLTKD. (which would also be very AI unfriendly.)

 

[Gazebo]

I'll trust Gazebo if he says we're over-reacting. Everyone got mad when he suggested ranged boats change, and many others, but those were for the best. If he makes the change and it turns out to be horrible, he'll correct it.


You know it's all in good fun.


I mean the new code thing is fair, but my suggestion wasn't to add more yields to the building. The goal was to better fill that niche. I think the building is still too scattershot to take. Here's my proposal:
Remove missionary bonus, lower spread a bit, add +3 / while in WLTKD and a 15 turn WLTKD. Keep 4 .

That makes it combo well with Theocratic rule and gives a reason to build it soon rather than waiting until you're on a bad resource for WLTKD. (which would also be very AI unfriendly.)

Still new code tho - right now the only table for WLTKD bonuses is a yield modifier, not flat yields. Adding new yield tables goes further, as you'd have to integrate them into the CBO/EUI/No-EUI/43 Civ EUI/No-EUI...etc. etc.

I think the v3 WIP list Church is pretty solid.

G

 

[ElliotS]

Still new code tho - right now the only table for WLTKD bonuses is a yield modifier, not flat yields. Adding new yield tables goes further, as you'd have to integrate them into the CBO/EUI/No-EUI/43 Civ EUI/No-EUI...etc. etc.

I think the v3 WIP list Church is pretty solid.

G

Are there any yield types that you can't get a bonus to during WLTKD from religious beliefs? I think another building gives science? It really needs to make WLTKD better for the city. Maybe add % production or something?

 

[HorseshoeHermit]

But historically, Imperialism did 'overperform', so...

:3

 

[Revolutionist_8]

Does Arsenal's "blocks science theft " bonus go obsolete or the building retains that ability until the end of the game (if no Military Base is built) ? If the latter, it can be a good choice to keep it if no need for the extra defense and manpower.

But historically, Imperialism did 'overperform', so...

Come on man it's a game, all choices should be equally desirable that's what makes the game interesting.

 

[Owlbebach]

Taj - +50 Culture and Golden Age Points when an owned unit is killed in battle, scaling with Era

Hahaha i love that. It should also unlock building Warriors for the rest of the game
Maybe you can make so that units have a small chance to explode and deal splash damage to surrounding units when killed?

EDIT: Funny, but absolutely useless though. A wonder that rewards loosing units? Really? Will benefit AI fo sure, but for a human - i do not loose more than 10 units for the whole game

 

[LukaSlovenia29]

Could we perhaps rather take the GA stuff we removed from Rationalism and give it to Taj Mahal instead of the proposed change?

EDIT: Cross posted with Owlbebach. I like that Taj Mahal has been buffed, but the main point of human play is to lose as few units as possible, so it'll be a big buff for the AI, but a very small one for humans.

 

[LukaSlovenia29]

Mostly I like the changelog very much, great work, thanks! Some more additional thoughts, though:

Orders are still too weak/undefined. If I'm thinking about picking Orders, I don't need extra faith, I need a stronger army. Not sure what the role of Orders is supposed to be... They give you extra XP (great for warmongers), increase city CS (not really needed for warmongers, more for tall civs that play defensively), and now gives a small amount of faith... I don't know, I'd suggest we either make it a strong defensive religious building (defensive both in terms of city strength and in terms of religious resilience) or make it mainly offensive/warmongering oriented, for example like giving all units created there a promotion (but not morale, since as a warmonger many units will be built in your Heroic Epic city), like someone suggested before, and perhaps giving a higher amount of free XP than 15.

Expanse: I'd prefer if only other stuff from this pantheon scaled with era, but not faith, because others have pointed out it can really offer tremendous amounts of faith in later parts of the game.

Is the +2 production from Villages an intended change from +2 science or a typo? I think it'll make Villages very strong, perhaps too strong, we'll see if it'll give too much production compared to Industry production bonuses (which are supposed to be one of the biggest advantages of Industry). Rationalism will have been buffed considerably by all the changes in this version (including the lowering of upgrading costs), let's see how Industry will perform now compared to Rationalism&Imperialism. I would have preferred a bigger nerf to Imperialism instead of making Rationalism so much stronger.

Red Fort: I like that it's being buffed, but I'm usually building it in my capital that doesn't need extra CS. Would it be instead possible for the wonder to grant a different building (not an Arsenal) that's farther ahead in the tech tree? Maybe a free Military Academy?

Thanks again for all the hard work and willingness to listen to us, and for your patience!

 

[Gazebo]

Hahaha i love that. It should also unlock building Warriors for the rest of the game
Maybe you can make so that units have a small chance to explode and deal splash damage to surrounding units when killed?

EDIT: Funny, but absolutely useless though. A wonder that rewards loosing units? Really? Will benefit AI fo sure, but for a human - i do not loose more than 10 units for the whole game

Not every wonder is for every player. It's the same code that's used by the Ossuary.

G

 

[stormfallen]

Red Fort - gains +1 range for city attack, +50% power (so the city can top out at 4 range for attacks)

New strategy: capturing/founding a city the minimum distance from the enemy's capital, rushing Red Fort, and shelling a city from another city.

 

[ElliotS]

Mostly I like the changelog very much, great work, thanks! Some more additional thoughts, though:

Orders are still too weak/undefined. If I'm thinking about picking Orders, I don't need extra faith, I need a stronger army. Not sure what the role of Orders is supposed to be... They give you extra XP (great for warmongers), increase city CS (not really needed for warmongers, more for tall civs that play defensively), and now gives a small amount of faith... I don't know, I'd suggest we either make it a strong defensive religious building (defensive both in terms of city strength and in terms of religious resilience) or make it mainly offensive/warmongering oriented, for example like giving all units created there a promotion (but not morale, since as a warmonger many units will be built in your Heroic Epic city), like someone suggested before, and perhaps giving a higher amount of free XP than 15.

Expanse: I'd prefer if only other stuff from this pantheon scaled with era, but not faith, because others have pointed out it can really offer tremendous amounts of faith in later parts of the game.

Is the +2 production from Villages an intended change from +2 science or a typo? I think it'll make Villages very strong, perhaps too strong, we'll see if it'll give too much production compared to Industry production bonuses (which are supposed to be one of the biggest advantages of Industry). Rationalism will have been buffed considerably by all the changes in this version (including the lowering of upgrading costs), let's see how Industry will perform now compared to Rationalism&Imperialism. I would have preferred a bigger nerf to Imperialism instead of making Rationalism so much stronger.

Red Fort: I like that it's being buffed, but I'm usually building it in my capital that doesn't need extra CS. Would it be instead possible for the wonder to grant a different building (not an Arsenal) that's farther ahead in the tech tree? Maybe a free Military Academy?

Thanks again for all the hard work and willingness to listen to us, and for your patience!

I think the faith from orders will be very powerful. Zealotry combos really well with them if those changes are passed.

Red fort seems good. I think a wonder can be a defensive wonder and still be fine. This is a strong bonus that will make the city scary. If it's bad in your capital just don't build it. I think OCC will LOVE it too.

 

[Legen]

I think Orders is fine with the extra faith kill. Makes it a neat building to have if you're in frequent wars, which happen even when playing peacefully. Brokered wars all the time...

I like the new churches, the extra faith on GWs gives it a proper use, distiguishable from other beliefs. Also, seems tailor-made for Brazil and China, plus Grand Ossuary.

My only note on observatories. I would say either the base science bump or the extra specialist is fine, but not both. Rationalism doesn't really need even more science, and that can actually be quite a bit of extra science.

My vote would be just the base bump. We don't really need more GSs

Rationalist is losing the extra science for GWs, replacing it for gold. I think the observatories need both the base science bump and the extra specialist.

 

[CrazyG]

Hahaha i love that. It should also unlock building Warriors for the rest of the game
Maybe you can make so that units have a small chance to explode and deal splash damage to surrounding units when killed?

Useless? No sir, this is the beginning of a brand new, innovative, meta-breaking strategy.

First of all, we will play Aztec. For years, people foolishly played the Aztec backwards. Killing units? How silly. You were supposed to be killed. Don't you see?

Spoiler Best Strategy Guaranteed :

The jaguar does not obsolete until steel. You can build the Taj Mahal without inventing steel.

After you build the Taj Mahal (without inventing steel), you just do the following.
Step 1: build jaguars everywhere. Buy them. Use zealotry. Ignore your supply cap. These guys cost 40 hammers, but when they die will give you 150 culture and 150 gold.
Step 2: is to declare war on everyone and feed them your jaguars. Watch as your culture soars. That 150 gold? Enough for a new jaguar! You can go infinite***
Step 3: ?????????????????????
Step 4: Profit

***Some might think you cannot go infinite, because you will eventually invent steel. They forget another unforseen strategy, selling all your buildings. Councils, libraries, universities, all of it. Science is the enemy. Those scholars want to stop our glorious jaguars from achieving salvation. If you went authority-->fealty and sell all buildings, you can get your science as low as 2 per city, your capital still has some, sadly. But only a fool stops there. You sell your gold buildings, for if your gold goes negative enough you will have no science. Disconnect your cities too. But build other roads, they will not only help our jaguars march to glorious salvation more quickly but also destroy that burdensome gold.

There are a few different ways to try doing it. Incan slingers cost a bit more but they obsolete later than jaguars, you can actually reach industrial era and archeology without discovering machinery.

 

[CrabHelmet]

...so all in all we like the changes to the Taj Mahal?

 

[Rafs]

Religion changes are ok for me, it's nice to see the church and cathedrals getting some boost, although I think it will be hard to make a good use of the cathedral free WTLK, but it's still a freebie so . I also find odd that we would nerf the max faith you could get but not max culture, which seemed to be (imho) the best belief you can get for wide civs.
Some people complain about the scaler on expanse, but it's the same as god of commerce or other pantheons that end up giving very high faith yields in the late game, and I think only culture heavy/russian players seem to be taking it so far, so it can't be that great.
Regarding Rationalism changes, they look nice, will have to test to see how they perform before anything I guess.
Onto the wonders:
Personally I think the change to the Taj Mahal is boring for players, still won't bother building it as it adds more hammer cost for the next wonders, making it a burden. I'd prefer if it gave some golden age points for each great person we are working and remove the golden age trigger if we want to stay with the previous golden age theme, or golden age points for culture GP and diplomats, and leave the golden age trigger on.
Rest of the changes I find interesting (CN tower nerf sucks but it's understandable, it was extremely powerful, even though its a very late game wonder).

 

[civplayer33]

Hahaha i love that. It should also unlock building Warriors for the rest of the game
Maybe you can make so that units have a small chance to explode and deal splash damage to surrounding units when killed?

That would actually make more sense than some might think, in the "postmodern" world: just rename the warrior-clones to "ISIS-terrorist" .
Since Taj Mahal IRL includes a mosque, it fits .

Feels like a very weird wonder...one will want to get it to prevent AI from getting the bonuses but I think the situations where it would really be worth it to lose units on purpose like that are fairly rare. Now...with the addition of the ISIS-terrorist unit...that would be another matter

 

[CppMaster]

That would actually make more sense than some might think, in the "postmodern" world: just rename the warrior-clones to "ISIS-terrorist" .
Since Taj Mahal IRL includes a mosque, it fits .

Feels like a very weird wonder...one will want to get it to prevent AI from getting the bonuses but I think the situations where it would really be worth it to lose units on purpose like that are fairly rare. Now...with the addition of the ISIS-terrorist unit...that would be another matter

Except that ISIS don't usually use just clubs

 

[Owlbebach]

Not every wonder is for every player.

I very much agree with that, for example i almost never build Himeji Castle, just don't get, i always feel that there more important thing to focus on. However the problem is that Taj belongs to Fealty so it is not equal. That makes Fealty relatively weaker for human than for AI. Otherwise it is fine and funny