New Beta Version - August 6th (8/6)

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The increase to CN tower’s GW bonus should probably be enough now.

Thanks G!
 
ElliotS said:
Imperialism is still hit way too hard. I would absolutely go
"Dropped plot yield value on Ocean to +1 for science (was +2)" and maybe remove another yield from oceans. I'm not even convinced that the science from Imperialism is that OP at all. It's less than Rationalism in the first era, and then rationalism massively out-scales it.

Making it very dependent oceans isn't a move I agree with at all.

Churches still seem terrible. It's like you heard "They're too hard to build at a good time! Either you build them before you spread and are worse off for it, or they do nothing!" and decided to make them only slightly less awkward to build. Is increasing WLTKD length really that hard? Seems like a perfect effect that would make it a good building with a solid niche and good combo-beliefs.

Then again can you destroy and rebuild them for another WLTKD? That might make it workable, that seems even harder for AI and newer players.

Orders are still god-awful. As someone who plays warmonger basically every game I just can't see the point of choosing these. They should give a free promotion of some sort to units instead of morale. Maybe "Fanatical Defender: +15% CS when defending."?

Observatories are still really, really bad. Can we move some of the power from mountains to base yields? Maybe reduce production costs for the building or give it some hammers? I just know that when I play rationalism I rarely build observatories, which is hilarious and frustrating as hell.

Also I think the per follower beliefs are getting hit too hard. I'd avoid nerfing faith, and increase cap for science and production to 15 if not revert the nerfs to them all the way. Culture nerf seems fine. It's the one I thought deserved a nerf.
Click to expand...

I would also prefer a nerf to Science from Ocean and to keep the +3 a +3, and while new Churches might not seem that bad to me, they sure are awkward. Should I wait until I get the middle of fealty for a production bonus, or get little from them as they aren't active for a long time, not accumulating me their yields and pressure?

Absolutely agreed on Orders and follower beliefs. I would nerf Culture because it is a no-brainer that the AI doesn't like all that much (except for the games it first picks it), but the rest of the nerfs are pretty questionable.
 
Building a city next to ice does not enable light houses / harbors / etc.

Intended?
 
ElliotS said:
Imperialism is still hit way too hard. I would absolutely go
"Dropped plot yield value on Ocean to +1 for science (was +2)" and maybe remove another yield from oceans. I'm not even convinced that the science from Imperialism is that OP at all. It's less than Rationalism in the first era, and then rationalism massively out-scales it.

Making it very dependent oceans isn't a move I agree with at all.

Churches still seem terrible. It's like you heard "They're too hard to build at a good time! Either you build them before you spread and are worse off for it, or they do nothing!" and decided to make them only slightly less awkward to build. Is increasing WLTKD length really that hard? Seems like a perfect effect that would make it a good building with a solid niche and good combo-beliefs.

Then again can you destroy and rebuild them for another WLTKD? That might make it workable, that seems even harder for AI and newer players.

Orders are still god-awful. As someone who plays warmonger basically every game I just can't see the point of choosing these. They should give a free promotion of some sort to units instead of morale. Maybe "Fanatical Defender: +15% CS when defending."?

Observatories are still really, really bad. Can we move some of the power from mountains to base yields? Maybe reduce production costs for the building or give it some hammers? I just know that when I play rationalism I rarely build observatories, which is hilarious and frustrating as hell.

Also I think the per follower beliefs are getting hit too hard. I'd avoid nerfing faith, and increase cap for science and production to 15 if not revert the nerfs to them all the way. Culture nerf seems fine. It's the one I thought deserved a nerf.
Click to expand...

1.) i do agree imperialism is hit hard
2.) that 15 wltkd should be added to the current effect of church and not entirely change. whats the point of build-rebuild church? it doesnt sound real to me
3.) i too a warmonger while it gives exp....... i kinda agree with him on this
4.) as obersvatories a science related building, how about giving a one-time-build science boost instead like of those circus on top of the current effect.
5.) somehow i do agree giving it a nerf (per follower)
 
Tzar Sasha said:
I would think so. If you cannot get a boat out because of the ice, lighthouses and such seem rather pointless then.
Click to expand...

Don't civilian ships get to pass through ice?
 
ElliotS said:
Imperialism is still hit way too hard. I would absolutely go
"Dropped plot yield value on Ocean to +1 for science (was +2)" and maybe remove another yield from oceans. I'm not even convinced that the science from Imperialism is that OP at all. It's less than Rationalism in the first era, and then rationalism massively out-scales it.

Making it very dependent oceans isn't a move I agree with at all.

Churches still seem terrible. It's like you heard "They're too hard to build at a good time! Either you build them before you spread and are worse off for it, or they do nothing!" and decided to make them only slightly less awkward to build. Is increasing WLTKD length really that hard? Seems like a perfect effect that would make it a good building with a solid niche and good combo-beliefs.

Then again can you destroy and rebuild them for another WLTKD? That might make it workable, that seems even harder for AI and newer players.

Orders are still god-awful. As someone who plays warmonger basically every game I just can't see the point of choosing these. They should give a free promotion of some sort to units instead of morale. Maybe "Fanatical Defender: +15% CS when defending."?

Observatories are still really, really bad. Can we move some of the power from mountains to base yields? Maybe reduce production costs for the building or give it some hammers? I just know that when I play rationalism I rarely build observatories, which is hilarious and frustrating as hell.

Also I think the per follower beliefs are getting hit too hard. I'd avoid nerfing faith, and increase cap for science and production to 15 if not revert the nerfs to them all the way. Culture nerf seems fine. It's the one I thought deserved a nerf.
Click to expand...

Unnecessary sass aside, it takes quite a bit of time to add entirely new code, as it has so many layers (UI, database, AI, implementation). Not to mention that we're well beyond where I'd say a 'comfortable' line should have been drawn, memory-footprint wise. So no, not going to happen.

You can't rebuild/destroy buildings with instant effects, WLTKD included. I honestly think there's quite a bit of overreaction here. Churches are strong passive spreaders, potentially boost missionaries quite a bit (if you find yourself in a situation where that matters), have the highest faith yield of any follower building, give 15 turns of WLTKD (which is a nice companion to a few buildings, UAs, policies, and wonders), and a music slot. How much more do you want a single building to do? Seriously, not every building needs to be a yield monster, some can have a slightly more niche focus and still be okay.

(Edit: as of posting this changelog last night) I hadn't touched Observatories yet. And Veneration needed a slight nerf, it's over-performing in the midgame in testing. +10 -> +8 pretty minor. The others needed a nerf as well, there was a bit of yield bloat here.

Taking one culture and one science from Imperialism's building/improvement bonus is an acceptable nerf, given how hard it has been over-performing as of late. Fun fact: every AI game that has had a massive runaway in it (conqueror or not) on the past few patches has been running imperialism. It's too strong right now.

G
 
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CrabHelmet said:
I agree with everything @ElliotS said.

Re: Observatories - why are they even locked to Rationalism? Whether I take Rationalism or not has almost no relation to whether I am near mountains. They seem completely orthogonal to one another. Couldn't Observatories be taken out of Rationalism and something else put in?
Click to expand...

You're talking about creating an entirely new building, with new art, new text, everything. So no. Be reasonable, seriously.

G
 
I wasn't talking a new building, @Gazebo. Just a different thing - doesn't have to be a building. Could be +2 Science on Luxes, I don't know (that's a completely random thing, not a real suggestion, just giving a hypothetical). The main point was that it's really... odd, for Observatories to be locked behind Rationalism. They feel very out of place. I feel like the mountain thing makes them niche enough as it is that then locking them behind a policy as well means they never really end up being built.

Also, don't you think maybe the changes to Veneration are too much? Like, I know you say we're overreacting, but... if I've noticed something, it's that all the people here almost never agree. We love arguing. I'm almost upset we agree, there's nothing to debate! :p But here, we have the relatively rare situation of everyone coming together to say "Veneration is fine, Inspiration is the problem". I dunno, it just seems unlikely absolutely all of us are so wrong on this. If the AI is overperforming with Veneration, maybe that has something to do with how the AI plays the religious game compared to humans? At the end of the day, we're not AI and human feedback does have to play a role.

Anyway, that's my 2c and I respect your decision either way.
 
CrabHelmet said:
I wasn't talking a new building, @Gazebo. Just a different thing - doesn't have to be a building. Could be +2 Science on Luxes, I don't know (that's a completely random thing, not a real suggestion, just giving a hypothetical). The main point was that it's really... odd, for Observatories to be locked behind Rationalism. They feel very out of place.

Also, don't you think maybe the changes to Veneration are too much? Like, I know you say we're overreacting, but... if I've noticed something, it's that all the people here almost never agree. We love arguing. I'm almost upset we agree, there's nothing to debate! :p But here, we have the relatively rare situation of everyone coming together to say "Veneration is fine, Inspiration is the problem". I dunno, it just seems unlikely absolutely all of us are so wrong on this. If the AI is overperforming with Veneration, maybe that has something to do with how the AI plays the religious game compared to humans? At the end of the day, we're not AI and human feedback does have to play a role.

Anyway, that's my 2c and I respect your decision either way.
Click to expand...

99% of the time I defer to the mob community on things. Other times, I look at AI performance and make a choice. This is the latter.

I personally like the flavor of Observatories being locked to Rationalism. It's a nice fit, theme-wise, and they were always an ugly stepchild building in vanilla.

Anyways, I'm back at my desk, so here's the changelog I worked on this morning:

Code: 
Changelog
    Fix for CTD some users are seeing after loading a save
    Assorted smaller bugfixes and typo fixes
 
Balance
    Religion
        Follower
            Reduced caps on follower beliefs
                Science (now +10)
                Faith (now +8)
                Culture (now +10)
                Production (now +10)
            Buildings
                Order: now gives XP to all unit types, not just land
                    +2 Faith when you kill an enemy Unit, scaling with Era.
                Cathedral: gains +10 Gold when borders expand, scaling with Era
                Church: city gains 15 turns of WLTKD, GWs in the city generate +1 faith; removed missionary bonus
        Pantheon
            Dropped Expanse to 18 faith (was 20), fixed missing era scaler text
    Civs
        Korea
            Seowon - unlocks at Philosophy (was education)
                GWs in city (local) produce +1 science and production
        Portugal
            Dropped UA value to +4 (was +5)
    Policies
        Imperialism
            Dropped yields on Fort/Citadel/Barracks/Armory/Military Academy to +2 (was +3)
        Rationalism
            New scaler:
                Now a flat 5% science for opener, +2% science per policy
                -5% yield need modifiers on opener, -2% on each policy
            Enlightenment: Receive one free Technology. +10% Science, Growth, and Gold in Cities during ''We Love the King Day.'' +1 Happiness from Universities.
                Removed GA stuff, as the tree is no longer benefitting or building off of GAs. WLTKD bonuses are better for rationalism as they directly effect city yield outputs
                    Also gives civs like China and Brazil more 3rd-branch options
            Academics: +1 Gold from every Specialist. +2 Production and Culture from Villages.
                Moved village stuff up here
            Scientific Revolution: Allows for the construction of Observatories in all Cities. +3% Gold in a City for every Great Work present (up to 20%).
                Observatory: now +1s per mountain (was +2), but increased base science to +5 and added a scientist specialist
            Empiricism: Foreign Spies are 34% less effective in all owned cities. Specialists consume 1 less Food than normal (minimum 1).
                Bumped spy bonus to 34% (was 25%)
            Free Thought: +25% Yields when you expend Great Scientists or Great Engineers for an instant yield boost. Halves Religious Unrest in all cities. 
                Moved GE/GS stuff here
    Wonders
        CN Tower - loses free broadcast tower all cities bonus. Now grants a free one in city where it is built, boosts tourism from wonders/improvements/ etc. by 50% for city, and all GWs gain +2g/+3 tourism
        Bletchley - added: all Scientist specialists gain +2 science
        Hagia Sophia - gained Church missionary booster - missionaries now 25% stronger globally (also removed 50 hard cap from DLL for modders)
        Taj - +50 Culture and Golden Age Points when an owned unit is killed in battle, scaling with Era
        Red Fort - gains +1 range for city attack, +50% power (so the city can top out at 4 range for attacks)
    Units
        Upgrades
            Removed era scaler for upgrade cost- should flatten out costs a bit
        Promotions
            Charge I/II - now 20% v. wounded (was 15%)

Do that thang.

G
 
Last edited:
Gazebo said:
99% of the time I defer to the mob community on things. Other times, I look at AI performance and make a choice. This is the latter.

I personally like the flavor of Observatories being locked to Rationalism. It's a nice fit, theme-wise, and they were always an ugly stepchild building in vanilla.

Anyways, I'm back at my desk, so here's the changelog I worked on this morning:

Code: 
Changelog
    Fix for CTD some users are seeing after loading a save
    Assorted smaller bugfixes and typo fixes
  
Balance
    Religion
        Follower
            Reduced caps on follower beliefs
                Science (now +10)
                Faith (now +8)
                Culture (now +10)
                Production (now +10)
            Buildings
                Order: now gives XP to all unit types, not just land
                    +2 Faith when you kill an enemy Unit, scaling with Era.
                Cathedral: gains +10 Gold when borders expand, scaling with Era
                Church: city gains 15 turns of WLTKD, GWs in the city generate +1 faith; removed missionary bonus
        Pantheon
            Dropped Expanse to 18 faith (was 20), fixed missing era scaler text
    Civs
        Korea
            Seowon - unlocks at Philosophy (was education)
                GWs in city (local) produce +1 science and production
        Portugal
            Dropped UA value to +4 (was +5)
    Policies
        Imperialism
            Dropped yields on Fort/Citadel/Barracks/Armory/Military Academy to +2 (was +3)
            Dropped plot yield value on Ocean to +1 for science (was +2)
        Rationalism
            New scaler:
                Now a flat 5% science for opener, +2% science per policy
                -5% yield need modifiers on opener, -2% on each policy
            Enlightenment: Receive one free Technology. +10% Science, Growth, and Gold in Cities during ''We Love the King Day.'' +1 Happiness from Universities.
                Removed GA stuff, as the tree is no longer benefitting or building off of GAs. WLTKD bonuses are better for rationalism as they directly effect city yield outputs
                    Also gives civs like China and Brazil more 3rd-branch options
            Academics: +1 Gold from every Specialist. +2 Production and Culture from Villages.
                Moved village stuff up here
            Scientific Revolution: Allows for the construction of Observatories in all Cities. +3% Gold in a City for every Great Work present (up to 20%).
                Observatory: now +1s per mountain (was +2), but increased base science to +6 and added a scientist specialist
            Empiricism: Foreign Spies are 34% less effective in all owned cities. Specialists consume 1 less Food than normal (minimum 1).
                Bumped spy bonus to 34% (was 25%)
            Free Thought: +25% Yields when you expend Great Scientists or Great Engineers for an instant yield boost. Halves Religious Unrest in all cities.  
                Moved GE/GS stuff here
    Wonders
        CN Tower - loses free broadcast tower all cities bonus. Now grants a free one in city where it is built, boosts tourism from wonders/improvements/ etc. by 50% for city, and all GWs gain +2g/+3 tourism
        Bletchley - added: all Scientist specialists gain +2 science
        Hagia Sophia - gained Church missionary booster - missionaries now 25% stronger globally (also removed 50 hard cap from DLL for modders)
        Taj - +50 Culture and Golden Age Points when an owned unit is killed in battle, scaling with Era
        Red Fort - gains +1 range for city attack, +50% power (so the city can top out at 4 range for attacks)
    Units
        Upgrades
            Removed era scaler for upgrade cost- should flatten out costs a bit
        Promotions
            Charge I/II - now 20% v. wounded (was 15%)

Do that thang.

G
Click to expand...
Did you readd the harsh Imperialism nerf, or did you forget to remove the Fort/etc yield drop? I assume so, otherwise it makes no sense. All seems fine to me, Orders will be sweat. All's good
Spoiler :
except for Parthian Tactics
 
Enrico Swagolo said:
Did you readd the harsh Imperialism nerf, or did you forget to remove the Fort/etc yield drop? I assume so, otherwise it makes no sense. All seems fine to me, Orders will be sweat. All's good
Spoiler :
except for Parthian Tactics
Click to expand...

? I removed one yield from forts/etc. It needed it. It makes sense. Imperialism is way overperforming. I know it's your favorite branch, but it's just straight-up overperforming in all instances right now.

G
 
Gazebo said:
? I removed one yield from forts/etc. It needed it. It makes sense. Imperialism is way overperforming. I know it's your favorite branch, but it's just straight-up overperforming in all instances right now.

G
Click to expand...

Yeah but it turned from

Imperialism (first draft)
Dropped yields on Fort/Citadel/Barracks/Armory/Military Academy to +2 (was +3)
Dropped plot yield value on Ocean to +1 for science (was +2)

to
Imperialism (second)
Dropped yields on Fort/Citadel/Barracks/Armory/Military Academy to +2 (was +3)

to
Imperialism (third, this one)
Dropped yields on Fort/Citadel/Barracks/Armory/Military Academy to +2 (was +3)
Dropped plot yield value on Ocean to +1 for science (was +2)

That's what I'm commenting about, the ocean was readded. It might still be okay, but I'm confused.
 
Enrico Swagolo said:
Yeah but it turned from

Imperialism (first draft)
Dropped yields on Fort/Citadel/Barracks/Armory/Military Academy to +2 (was +3)
Dropped plot yield value on Ocean to +1 for science (was +2)

to
Imperialism (second)
Dropped yields on Fort/Citadel/Barracks/Armory/Military Academy to +2 (was +3)

to
Imperialism (third, this one)
Dropped yields on Fort/Citadel/Barracks/Armory/Military Academy to +2 (was +3)
Dropped plot yield value on Ocean to +1 for science (was +2)

That's what I'm commenting about, the ocean was readded. It might still be okay, but I'm confused.
Click to expand...

Ahh, no, I don't know why that's there, it isn't even on my word doc on my computer. Odd. Fixed it.

G
 
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