New Beta Version - August 6th (8/6)

[Grabbl]

I don't think that the proposition is bad. It gives probably 40-50 tourism (comparable with Cristo Redentor), that's no joke, and the equivalent of thousands of food in every city, and the happiness. The new citizen in every city is easily good for 10 yields.

Edit: And comparing with CERN, I'm much happier with even the current CN Tower in any situation. Two free techs sound good, but you really have to play around it so you even have two techs left at that point.

 

[Guynemer]

Hmmm... hopefully a quirk only. Now that we are at it, I have another one: I noticed that sometimes the game will count a lux as double, without any justification from game rules, flavors, etc... right now, I have that same game as America, the conquered Thebes has 1 Incense, yet the game credits me for 2, I can even trade 1 and still get the hap bonus from the "second" one... I will see if I can get the savegame up for you. It may be CP only (the time I noticed it before I was also playing CP only). Should I post it as a bug in git, or do you want to say something first? (not sure if bug, or CP, or both).

Are you certain you aren't getting an extra incense from a city-state? Or maybe Thebes was founded on top of an incense?

 

[Aristos]

I think its okay to leave a broadcast tower on the CN Tower for flavor purposes. I think you can sell your existing tower and have it replaced with one that takes no maintenance if you want.

However, it needs to have a strong effect when you ignore the free tower. I don't think that tourism bonus is enough (this thing costs a lot of hammers)

Is the city settled on top of an incense?

Nope, of course I checked that also... there is really only 1 incense in my territory. Not coming from a CS either, as I am not ally of any. In fact, EUI is showing "Local resources 2 incense" for Thebes when there is clearly only 1...

 

[Tzar Sasha]

So I started a Celts game to test it out since I hadn't actually played them since I came back after a year+ break, and most foreign cities aren't receiving pressure from mine. I converted a foreign city and that one seems to now both exert and accept pressure of my religion. EDIT: the pressure it's getting is from a trade route they sent me.
It's weird though, because I could have sworn I had received Celtic pressure from the Celts themselves while unconverted in other games like you say it should work.

The Celt game I was playing just the other day had 0 pressure going to the nearby city states and foreign civs. When I did manage to convert the nearby city states by spamming missionaries, they did not exert any pressure either. It wasn't until getting the fealty policy which increases pressure by 50% that I started seeing the city states apply a minuscule amount of pressure (like +6) compared to my empire's internal pressure of much higher.

Also, I think that there is still pressure from other religions that gets applied even tho there is no + amount displayed provided that that other religion is majority in one of the cities. I noticed this when I puppet'd two cities of two different religions. My closest owned city started having citizens convert even tho I was applying an internal pressure well over 150 (possibly close to 200) to the puppet cities.

 

[CrazyG]

Nope, of course I checked that also... there is really only 1 incense in my territory. Not coming from a CS either, as I am not ally of any. In fact, EUI is showing "Local resources 2 incense" for Thebes when there is clearly only 1...

Then it is a bug.

It's weird though, because I could have sworn I had received Celtic pressure from the Celts themselves while unconverted in other games like you say it should work.

The celts will receive and give pressure if they aren't a leader of a religion.

 

[Gazebo]

Then it is a bug.

The celts will receive and give pressure if they aren't a leader of a religion.

I stand corrected - looked at the code commit and I'd changed it so that the Celts spread naturally, and then I reverted it later on.

G

 

[Gazebo]

Alright, what about this?

Changelog
    Fix for CTD some users are seeing after loading a save
    Assorted smaller bugfixes and typo fixes
   
Balance
    Religion
        Follower
            Reduced caps on follower beliefs
                Science (now +10)
                Faith (now +8)
                Culture (now +10)
                Production (now +10)
            Buildings
                Order: now gives XP to all unit types, not just land
                Cathedral: gains +10 Gold when borders expand, scaling with Era
                Church: city gains 15 turns of WLTKD
        Pantheon
            Dropped Expanse to 18 faith (was 20), fixed missing era scaler text
    Civs
        Korea
            Seowon - unlocks at Philosophy (was education)
                GWs in city (local) produce +1 science and production
        Portugal
            Dropped UA value to +4 (was +5)
    Policies
        Imperialism
            Dropped yields on Fort/Citadel/Barracks/Armory/Military Academy to +2 (was +3)
        Rationalism
            New scaler:
                Now a flat 5% science for opener, +2% science per policy
                -5% yield need modifiers on opener, -2% on each policy
            Enlightenment: Receive one free Technology. +10% Science, Growth, and Gold in Cities during ''We Love the King Day.'' +1 Happiness from Universities.
                Removed GA stuff, as the tree is no longer benefitting or building off of GAs. WLTKD bonuses are better for rationalism as they directly effect city yield outputs
                    Also gives civs like China and Brazil more 3rd-branch options
            Academics: +1 Gold from every Specialist. +2 Production and Culture from Villages.
                Moved village stuff up here
            Empiricism: Foreign Spies are 34% less effective in all owned cities. Specialists consume 1 less Food than normal (minimum 1).
                Bumped spy bonus to 34% (was 25%)
            Free Thought: +25% Yields when you expend Great Scientists or Great Engineers for an instant yield boost. Halves Religious Unrest in all cities.  
                Moved GE/GS stuff here
    Wonders
        CN Tower - loses free broadcast tower all cities bonus. Now grants a free one in city where it is built, boosts tourism from wonders/improvements/ etc. by 50% for city, and all GWs gain +2g/+3 tourism
        Bletchley - added: all Scientist specialists gain +2 science
    Units
        Upgrades
            Removed era scaler for upgrade cost- should flatten out costs a bit
        Promotions
            Charge I/II - now 20% v. wounded (was 15%)

 

[Enrico Swagolo]

Alright, what about this?

Changelog
    Fix for CTD some users are seeing after loading a save
    Assorted smaller bugfixes and typo fixes
  
Balance
    Religion
        Follower
            Reduced caps on follower beliefs
                Science (now +10)
                Faith (now +8)
                Culture (now +10)
                Production (now +10)
            Buildings
                Order: now gives XP to all unit types, not just land
                Cathedral: gains +10 Gold when borders expand, scaling with Era
                Church: city gains 15 turns of WLTKD
        Pantheon
            Dropped Expanse to 18 faith (was 20), fixed missing era scaler text
    Civs
        Korea
            Seowon - unlocks at Philosophy (was education)
                GWs in city (local) produce +1 science and production
        Portugal
            Dropped UA value to +4 (was +5)
    Policies
        Imperialism
            Dropped yields on Fort/Citadel/Barracks/Armory/Military Academy to +2 (was +3)
        Rationalism
            New scaler:
                Now a flat 5% science for opener, +2% science per policy
                -5% yield need modifiers on opener, -2% on each policy
            Enlightenment: Receive one free Technology. +10% Science, Growth, and Gold in Cities during ''We Love the King Day.'' +1 Happiness from Universities.
                Removed GA stuff, as the tree is no longer benefitting or building off of GAs. WLTKD bonuses are better for rationalism as they directly effect city yield outputs
                    Also gives civs like China and Brazil more 3rd-branch options
            Academics: +1 Gold from every Specialist. +2 Production and Culture from Villages.
                Moved village stuff up here
            Empiricism: Foreign Spies are 34% less effective in all owned cities. Specialists consume 1 less Food than normal (minimum 1).
                Bumped spy bonus to 34% (was 25%)
            Free Thought: +25% Yields when you expend Great Scientists or Great Engineers for an instant yield boost. Halves Religious Unrest in all cities. 
                Moved GE/GS stuff here
    Wonders
        CN Tower - loses free broadcast tower all cities bonus. Now grants a free one in city where it is built, boosts tourism from wonders/improvements/ etc. by 50% for city, and all GWs gain +2g/+3 tourism
        Bletchley - added: all Scientist specialists gain +2 science
    Units
        Upgrades
            Removed era scaler for upgrade cost- should flatten out costs a bit
        Promotions
            Charge I/II - now 20% v. wounded (was 15%)

I see use for Cathedral and Church, I like them. Cathedral + God of Expanse + Inspiration Russia seems like it'll be fun. I won't be taking Orders even as a warmongerer anyway, but the other two seem nice.

Spoiler :

Parthian tactics nerf when

 

[CrabHelmet]

I don't like Veneration being +8. I probably won't use it now.

I like the new Cathedral. Church seems a bit more circumstantial, will have to test it a bit.

The Imperialism and Rationalism changes are both very nice, I like them.

Surprised you didn't look at the Red Fort or Taj Mahal?

 

[intelli]

What causes the Corruption event? Is it to do with new/underdeveloped cities or something?

Basically I got bored with a runaway Carthage game, massively overexpanded when I got Pioneers, next thing I know I have -22 happiness from events and set myself on a giant downward spiral.

With the new Distress system it's impossible to get away from a happiness hit, previously I'd just take the -Growth and forget about it.

 

[Stalker0]

Most of the new changes look good. My big thing for veneration is why hit it harder than inspiration or diligence? Personally those 2 are the stronger per follower beliefs right now.

I’m not saying they need to be nerfed to that point, but if any nerfs were required I’d see them hit before veneration

 

[pza]

What causes the Corruption event? Is it to do with new/underdeveloped cities or something?

Basically I got bored with a runaway Carthage game, massively overexpanded when I got Pioneers, next thing I know I have -22 happiness from events and set myself on a giant downward spiral.

With the new Distress system it's impossible to get away from a happiness hit, previously I'd just take the -Growth and forget about it.

disabling the event system might be worth a try for you. i did it a while agoago never went back.

 

[Owlbebach]

i do not understand Churches... 15 turns of WLTKD is kinda nice, but how is that supposed to work in real game? I should wait for my city to ask for resource that i do not have and them purchase Church? This is weird. Maybe just give them something like +25-50% of WLTKD length?

 

[Stalker0]

i do not understand Churches... 15 turns of WLTKD is kinda nice, but how is that supposed to work in real game? I should wait for my city to ask for resource that i do not have and them purchase Church? This is weird. Maybe just give them something like +25-50% of WLTKD length?

That’s an interesting idea

 

[Mad Madigan]

@Gazebo You didn't mention anything about Scientific Revolution in those proposed patch notes, but since the GS/GE % increase was moved to Free Thought, does that mean that Scientific Revolution now only adds the ability to built Observatories? Because if so that makes that policy seem really, really weak. Even in Thick Progress games where I'm building just about every building in every city, I still only ever build Observatories in cities with 2+ mountains nearby, so this policy would be extremely situational. Or was something else added to Scientific Revolution to make up for the loss of the GS/GE buff?

EDIT:

I should add that I'm all in favor of the rest of the changes, but I agree that building Churches giving X days of WLTKD is very strange. I agree it should boost WLTKD length for the city it is in, or give some other yield % boost for WLTKD (maybe & ?).

 

[Gazebo]

i do not understand Churches... 15 turns of WLTKD is kinda nice, but how is that supposed to work in real game? I should wait for my city to ask for resource that i do not have and them purchase Church? This is weird. Maybe just give them something like +25-50% of WLTKD length?

New code.

G

 

[Tzar Sasha]

Is it intentional that when a recon unit gets an ancient ruin that provides map information that said unit gets an xp boost for all the terrain shown?

 

[Grabbl]

Yes.

 

[crdvis16]

Nope, of course I checked that also... there is really only 1 incense in my territory. Not coming from a CS either, as I am not ally of any. In fact, EUI is showing "Local resources 2 incense" for Thebes when there is clearly only 1...

East India company giving an extra copy?

 

[ElliotS]

Alright, what about this?

Changelog
    Fix for CTD some users are seeing after loading a save
    Assorted smaller bugfixes and typo fixes
  
Balance
    Religion
        Follower
            Reduced caps on follower beliefs
                Science (now +10)
                Faith (now +8)
                Culture (now +10)
                Production (now +10)
            Buildings
                Order: now gives XP to all unit types, not just land
                Cathedral: gains +10 Gold when borders expand, scaling with Era
                Church: city gains 15 turns of WLTKD
        Pantheon
            Dropped Expanse to 18 faith (was 20), fixed missing era scaler text
    Civs
        Korea
            Seowon - unlocks at Philosophy (was education)
                GWs in city (local) produce +1 science and production
        Portugal
            Dropped UA value to +4 (was +5)
    Policies
        Imperialism
            Dropped yields on Fort/Citadel/Barracks/Armory/Military Academy to +2 (was +3)
        Rationalism
            New scaler:
                Now a flat 5% science for opener, +2% science per policy
                -5% yield need modifiers on opener, -2% on each policy
            Enlightenment: Receive one free Technology. +10% Science, Growth, and Gold in Cities during ''We Love the King Day.'' +1 Happiness from Universities.
                Removed GA stuff, as the tree is no longer benefitting or building off of GAs. WLTKD bonuses are better for rationalism as they directly effect city yield outputs
                    Also gives civs like China and Brazil more 3rd-branch options
            Academics: +1 Gold from every Specialist. +2 Production and Culture from Villages.
                Moved village stuff up here
            Empiricism: Foreign Spies are 34% less effective in all owned cities. Specialists consume 1 less Food than normal (minimum 1).
                Bumped spy bonus to 34% (was 25%)
            Free Thought: +25% Yields when you expend Great Scientists or Great Engineers for an instant yield boost. Halves Religious Unrest in all cities. 
                Moved GE/GS stuff here
    Wonders
        CN Tower - loses free broadcast tower all cities bonus. Now grants a free one in city where it is built, boosts tourism from wonders/improvements/ etc. by 50% for city, and all GWs gain +2g/+3 tourism
        Bletchley - added: all Scientist specialists gain +2 science
    Units
        Upgrades
            Removed era scaler for upgrade cost- should flatten out costs a bit
        Promotions
            Charge I/II - now 20% v. wounded (was 15%)

Imperialism is still hit way too hard. I would absolutely go
"Dropped plot yield value on Ocean to +1 for science (was +2)" and maybe remove another yield from oceans. I'm not even convinced that the science from Imperialism is that OP at all. It's less than Rationalism in the first era, and then rationalism massively out-scales it.

Making it very dependent oceans isn't a move I agree with at all.

Churches still seem terrible. It's like you heard "They're too hard to build at a good time! Either you build them before you spread and are worse off for it, or they do nothing!" and decided to make them only slightly less awkward to build. Is increasing WLTKD length really that hard? Seems like a perfect effect that would make it a good building with a solid niche and good combo-beliefs.

Then again can you destroy and rebuild them for another WLTKD? That might make it workable, that seems even harder for AI and newer players.

Orders are still god-awful. As someone who plays warmonger basically every game I just can't see the point of choosing these. They should give a free promotion of some sort to units instead of morale. Maybe "Fanatical Defender: +15% CS when defending."?

Observatories are still really, really bad. Can we move some of the power from mountains to base yields? Maybe reduce production costs for the building or give it some hammers? I just know that when I play rationalism I rarely build observatories, which is hilarious and frustrating as hell.

Also I think the per follower beliefs are getting hit too hard. I'd avoid nerfing faith, and increase cap for science and production to 15 if not revert the nerfs to them all the way. Culture nerf seems fine. It's the one I thought deserved a nerf.