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New Beta Version - Feb. 9th (2-9)

Discussion in 'Community Patch Project' started by Gazebo, Feb 10, 2020.

  1. James Ryle

    James Ryle Chieftain

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    I play on epic and I’m just wondering what aspects in your opinion make it that much easier? I understand about the greater time to maneuver military but are there other aspects of the game I should be aware off? (I’m also not someone that goes for domination victory). Thanks :)
     
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  2. JamesNinelives

    JamesNinelives Emperor

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    Yeah so... it turns out that actually different people enjoy different aspects of the game. That's part of why we spend so much time talking about it. What is normal for you is not normal for everyone.
     
  3. crdvis16

    crdvis16 Emperor

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    I think the biggest is military unit actions having greater impact (assuming the human is better than the AI tactically). There might also just be general balance issues. I think VP is primarily balanced around standard settings and then tries to accommodate epic/marathon by scaling things with speed but it's probably not easy to get it just right for every setting.

    You'd be surprised how easily a setting might change balance. I play without ruins on and one consequence of that is that early wonders like Stonehenge/Pyramids are very easy to get at deity whereas they are more competitive with ruins on(higher chance that an AI gets a tech ruin or something since there are multiple AI and just one human player).
     
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  4. Sekisetsu

    Sekisetsu Chieftain

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    Is it intended that Pictish Warrior doesn't get the Formation I promotion?
     
  5. Moi Magnus

    Moi Magnus Emperor

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  6. Zuizgond

    Zuizgond Prince

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    You can also tweak parameters in the DifficultyMod.xml file if you want more challenge.
     
  7. Voremonger

    Voremonger Warlord

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    Sorry, I should have been more specific: the military aspect of the game is much easier on epic/marathon but non-military aspects are largely unaffected I think.
     
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  8. Gidoza

    Gidoza Emperor

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    Another possibility for Archers would be to leave their Range at 2, but suffer a 50% (or some other statistical) penalty when using 2 Range: this they would do normal damage at 1 Range.
     
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  9. civplayer33

    civplayer33 King

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    Yes; they didn't get the regular Anti-Mounted before, either.
    That's just a simpler way of editing the DifficultyMod file, but by all means, mod away.
    Humans are better than the AI at general trend analysis and coordination, so larger maps can be better for humans because they have more complexity, though that isn't necessarily the case when warmongering as capturing and vassalizing your neighbor, for example, gives you relatively more power on smaller maps and humans are better at waging war; plus, it takes longer for the human to exert significant control over a larger map, such that he can steer developments in the "right" direction. Slowing time (Epic, Marathon) amplifies the human's warmongering advantage (literally more tactical decisions) and gives the human more opportunities to make better decisions than the AI in general and particularly hurts the AI's ability to react to potential threats effectively, because things take longer to build and research, so the fact that it's worse at anticipating a problematic development, which has to lead to even earlier countermeasures, again gives the human the advantage.

    I think the problem with the case presented by @Cokolwiek lies less with Deity difficulty in general as with the playstyle: relatively small map (can be better for warmongerers, as they'll control more of the world faster), Epic speed (better for humans, especially when warmongering) and, of course, the warmongering itself, which humans are better at. So rather than boost the Deity bonuses in general there should be more focus on countering that playstyle; I've given some examples in this thread already, as well as an idea for a tiered "anti-runaway" system in another thread that should focus the AI more on useful aggression; once such a system were implemented, one could introduce a mechanism that increases coordination among AI in other ways...like once at least 3 fairly closeby AI (also counting Open Borders to the warzone, so they don't have to be neighbors to the runaway) have "bonded" against the imminent runaway they put extreme focus on building military for 10-20 turns and then jointly declare war. For this to be maximally effective, however, it needs to allow for exceptions in the strategic considerations as well, such that they actually throw everything they have at the runaway and attempt to wipe him out. No doubt this would generate more complaints about "killHuman.exe" but this is exactly what a bunch of humans would do against an AI-runaway. Perhaps this rather extreme mechanism could only trigger if the (prospective) runaway has a significant warmonger score or vassals, to give peaceful players a chance at only having to deal with "normal" victory competition.
     
  10. SuperNoobCamper

    SuperNoobCamper Prince

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    I actually like the discussion going on here, a couple of points i'd like to add/clarify.
    • the anti warmonger fervor is strictly an early warmonger hindrance, it does not really make a big difference on the long run, once the cap is hit it's just another stat modifier on troops.
    • despite how much i bring up the ELIMINATE_HUMAN.EXE post renaissance era discussion, i don't think it contributes to the difficulty at all .... it's like a suicide rush against a death wall , again it only hurts very early warmongers or very late close to the victory players who have not created a good safe zone around their boarders.
    • I'm not talking about runaways like COE spam missionaries get oracle and win the game from renaissance era while everyone else is in classical like previous patches, i'm talking about a general deterioration of the AI performance and the challenge they are supposed to impose against human despite the improvement in their code and behavior.
    • HCW's efforts to tackle the AI diplomacy modifier and making them reasonable are making a real difference in how the AI interacts with the human but this was never really the core problem with the difficulty *point two*, the real issue i'm bringing up is how the AI interacts with the game and develops it's national economy, army and growth and uses this to advance it's game plan to eventually pose a real threat of winning the game .... the other side of this issue is how the AI interacts with other AIs and human player which is HCW's territory and i think he is doing a good job of making the AI more sane.
    • The difficulty/the challenge or whatever you would like to call it IMO is to what extent can a human player leverage his ability to make better use of the game system to advance his game plan and win against a variable amount of unfair bonuses granted to the AI to compensate for the inherent handicap in intelligence of playing against a human, the AI starting & ongoing bonuses to production & growth were subjectively reduced as reported by some of us here finding difficulties like immortal very easy and objectively by the constant reduction of these bonuses over the period of VP development.
    • I don't want to sound like a jerk but the BNW argument is just funny, anyone who touched the original game knows how big of an upgrade VP was to civ 5, we are not comparing VP balance to the original ridiculous balance but to what we think a better VP could be :)
     
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  11. Recursive

    Recursive Emperor

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    Regarding diplomacy:

    It's challenging to program the diplomacy AI such that it is:
    - Not too aggressive
    - Not too passive
    - Not too predictable (else it would be exploitable)
    - Not erratic, i.e. does not switch approaches rapidly
    - Varying based on leader personality
    - Strong at evaluating the situation
    - Strong at deciding how to approach it
    - Rewarding of good behavior and punishing of bad behavior (towards them)
    - Realistic, at least to an extent

    All at the same time, especially when it's unclear what combination of factors is in play in individual games. It already struggles to juggle all of these goals, which is why addressing the problems is challenging. Add in the fact that Firaxis was not particularly invested in meaningful, intelligent diplomacy, and the complications of the UI, and it takes work.

    Not to say that I'm giving up on improvements, but significant changes to improve the AI's intelligence are hard to accomplish, come with tradeoffs, and no matter what, someone's going to be unhappy with the result.
     
  12. Tarzan737

    Tarzan737 Warlord

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    I must say that i liked diplomacy in last version, i could have long lasting friends, and enemies and neutrals, it felt better. Have just tried one game
     
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  13. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

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    I'm just going to repeat this, as this is literally your solution to a harder game. Pump up the A,B, C values and I guarantee you a more difficult experience.
     
  14. crdvis16

    crdvis16 Emperor

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    It probably doesn't get said enough, but regardless of how much people criticize things we are all very impressed with the amount of work that's been put into VP and we are all impressed with the result so far. We tend to skip saying so when making suggestions for improvements, maybe for the sake of brevity. Everyone has also been too harsh with criticism at times (myself included) and have forgotten that the VP devs aren't being paid for their work.

    In particular, I nonchalantly will toss around suggestions with very little appreciation for the effort that would be required to implement them. So I apologize for doing so and apologize in advance for when I will inevitably do it in the future :)
     
  15. SuperNoobCamper

    SuperNoobCamper Prince

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    Just something i want to be clear about, i really appreciate the effort you put towards making the AI behavior more or less justifiable by the diplo mods for friend and foe.
    AI diplo behavior was brought up as a part of the difficulty/challenge discussion which i think it does not and should not be contributing to it at all; i think difficulty is strictly about how the AI advance it's game plan through making it's nation better militarily, economically, culturally, technologically, production and growth wise .... the diplomacy is just how does the AI uses the aforementioned stuff to deal with threats posed to it or in a logical way iwth consideration of friend/foe modifiers and weight of previous and ongoing deals, treaties, general behavior etc...
     
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  16. tu_79

    tu_79 Deity

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    Reiterate you must!
    When we talked about removing starting worker and other steep bonuses, we asked for an increase in handicap values to compensate, and I think it was done but it might not have been enough. So people, keep in mind that these values are not set in stone. If you think the early game has became too easy, we can tune it up.
     
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  17. tothePAIN

    tothePAIN King

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    Is this possible?
     
  18. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch Supporter

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    People have been demanding nerf after nerf to ‘unfair’ AI handicaps so that everyone can play Deity. This is the result. I’m going to...resolve this.

    G
     
    Last edited: Feb 13, 2020
  19. stormfallen

    stormfallen Chieftain

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  20. Voremonger

    Voremonger Warlord

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    I played another game as Persia (Immortal, standard speed) where I used the Really Advanced Setup mod to give every player an extra settler at the beginning of the game.
    Since the instant yields the AI are getting are tied (among other things) to them founding Cities this gave the AI a much stronger start than what they usually have.
    I rushed Statue of Zeus and built up a few Immortals but by the time I started the attack against Pachacuti he had considerably more defenses up than would be normal (he also already had 5 Cities).
    I still managed to conquer one of his Cities in the initial war and 2 more of his Cities in consecutive wars.
    I was still fighting Pachacuti in the Medieval Era (he and I were dead last in score, I might have been able to finish off someone like Bismarck at that point).
    I would judge the overall difficulty of the game I played to be comparable to Deity.
     
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