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New Beta Version - Feb. 9th (2-9)

Discussion in 'Community Patch Project' started by Gazebo, Feb 10, 2020.

  1. tu_79

    tu_79 Deity

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    You have detailed every single issue tradition style must face. Fine. But for me, it's just that happiness limits how many cities you can keep happy from your city. The rest of the tradition problems derive from this fact.

    You may not want to continue the game until the end, and that's fine, but be aware that Authority is especially good at the early game, even without fighting, but if you fail to capitalize on the advantage, your late game will not succeed. Also remember that you are playing epic pace, while policies are balanced around standard pace.

    It's like complaining about the fact that the Aztecs completely dominate the early game, while Austria is crap. If you keep playing Austria until industrial age and manage to survive, you will win more often with Austria than the Aztecs. That's the thing with late bloomers, they are better suited to win if left alone, so playing an early bloomer you must be sure that you hindered those as much as possible. It comes to no surprise that many games are lost because a runaway civ out of reach. You dominate your early game, your continent, make everyone nearby a vassal, and then some civ in another continent suddenly skyrockets its techs, you try to stop it but can't send enough units in time since they are well protected in the other side of the world.

    I agree with you that it should be fun, and it looks like you stop having fun mid game. You think you have won, and it might not be truth (you win when the victory message appears, not before then). But it doesn't matter if you still can lose, what matters is that there's a period where you are feeling overconfident and you get bored. What this says to me is that you need to raise handicap B value.
     
  2. youngsteve

    youngsteve Chieftain

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    Unfortunately, this is not just related to Vox Populi or even Civ 5 or any Civilization game, but an issue with nearly every game. Elitist players take control & demand this & that so they can play on the hardest level with no real concern for the balance of a game. So the game usually gets easier & more unbalanced as these people shout loudest. Developers try to stop exploits & balance a game but are then attacked for making it harder The Paradox forums are very similar. You cannot win. Instead of playing a lower level these people demand a game is made easier so they can play the hardest level. There are many excellent players who don't do this, & want a challenge, but are having to put in their own restrictions to keep the challenge up.

    My personal opinion is Deity should be for the really top elite players, not every Tom, Dick & Harry who plays the mod. I have viewed so many average players on letsplays winning on Deity with this mod or BNW, making mistake after mistake, but having no problem at all. This mod or any game should be balanced for the default level & built up from there, which I believe it was originally.
     
  3. Zuizgond

    Zuizgond Prince

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    I confirm something has changed regarding pathing. Units don't seem to consider roads when choosing the fastest route to go to destination.
     
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  4. JamesNinelives

    JamesNinelives Emperor

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    I have no issue whatsover with the AI numerical bonuses increasing. Especially if that makes people happy! Let's try it and see how it goes? :)
    I think you might be exaggerating just a little there. It's credible that you have witnessed certain patterns in the games that you follow. Implying that must neccesarily be true here is questionable.
    Sure. But the average player does not play on Deity. That includes a lot of people here who have been playing this mod for years.
    Not really sure who the elitist here is. You might want to look up the definition of that word.
    Let's be totally clear: those are not the same thing.
     
    Last edited: Feb 14, 2020
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  5. JamesNinelives

    JamesNinelives Emperor

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    Honestly, being forward settled was the #1 most annoying thing about this mod when I started using it. I'm much much happier with how things are now. (I support increasing the numerical handicap.)
    Anyone can, but not everyone does. I like to think there should be more than one best opening. If that is the case, then maybe something more than just the modifiers does need to be changed. I'd prefer making settler rushes less of a go-to than encouraging the AI to expand faster. Although I would be happy to agree with some kind of compromise.
    I am very biased in this regard, but I wholeheartedly support this idea :).
     
    Last edited: Feb 14, 2020
  6. Zuizgond

    Zuizgond Prince

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    I encountered the same issue, but in the other way. First CS put a holy site on horses (it was the first time I saw a CS building a holy site, not sure if it's a bug) and then swapped it for a citadel (?) that did not claim the surrounding tiles.
     
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  7. arievillo

    arievillo Chieftain

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    Is anyone else having problems with the diplomacy button? For me, it is blocked, i can't access diplomacy options. Already created a github ticket.
     
  8. Bryan317

    Bryan317 Warlord

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    Ok... If you are a player that has truly annexed or puppeted half of the World by the time you have fusilier... then yes you are a pro begging for more challenge. And I'm willing to make the argument for you that Diety should be made insane for you. I'm willing to see all difficulties raised. New people to this mod should start at settler! However I'm also Going to make this point. This is not a pure War simulation. And while you may have taken over half the world. Can you actually maintain the happiness the rest of the game? Maybe the World Congress make some changes that threw some wrenches in your streamlined approach?

    That should actually be a role playing theme of an Authority game is to quickly take over a large area then deal with the trouble of actually maintaining it. Now, I don't know whether or not this theme/challenge is being presented to you... Maybe it's not hard enough. But this should be the theme of it in my opinion. Not just pure conquest and no chance of an unruly populace. It's also amazing how the little guy can catch up to you technologically and put up a fight in the information era. And, okay you took over half the world? Maybe you should try some different settings. If you can do that on huge/22civ then I truly bow to you sir.
     
    Last edited: Feb 14, 2020
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  9. tu_79

    tu_79 Deity

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    It's a valid point that he has not won until proven, but it is also a fact that he was getting bored. Several anti warmonger mechanics were introduced to try to prevent the player from being in such situations too early, but if the rein is too tight people complain about the artificial limitations.

    Also, the main reason for equaling handicaps is that feedback from lower difficulties is still meaningful. Otherwise the game gets tuned up for deity and the experience becomes unbalanced for the lower difficulties.
    If you want customized challenges, there's a mod called Really Advanced Setup that works precisely for this. There you can experience what it is to gift all AI several bonuses at start.
     
  10. Bryan317

    Bryan317 Warlord

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    I have also used IGE mod for the sole purpose of helping the AI with something. You could do ANYTHING with IGE to alter the AI. Give them tech,social policies,...anything. Be warned... while you might think you're helping the AI you can start to throw off the mechanics a lot if you make changes you dont realize. For instance you think I might want to help them boost their population so you give them 10 pop points. Well they also got all the "A citizen is born" bonuses too. Which could be quite extensive depending on how many bonuses they have attached to this. And maybe population isn't what they wanted because now they have more unhappiness. Something could inadvertently help you also. You might think I'm going to help this enemy fight me off a little longer and give them some units. But you're going to get the experience for killing all those units. I also suggest making the changes you feel necessary then taking IGE back off to remove any temptation of you cheating. LOL
     
    Last edited: Feb 14, 2020
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  11. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

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    I will also say if Diety players want a greater challenge, the easiest way to do that....remove the range and logistics promotions as options in your games. Those are the main force multipliers in the game, take those out and your going to have a much harder time just steamrolling the world.
     
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  12. crdvis16

    crdvis16 Emperor

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    Also, don't play epic/marathon where warfare is more of a crutch. Can also play peaceful games that are sometimes harder and break up the grindiness of heavy warmongering.

    I'm not opposed to G making things innately harder either, though. I don't care if I'm playing at deity or immortal or whatever- I'll play at whatever level gives me a consistent challenge.
     
  13. Recursive

    Recursive Emperor

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    AIs are more or less likely to adopt specific diplomacy approaches based on their individual leader bias. A list of these biases can be found here (randomized by +/- 2 from game to game): https://civ-5-cbp.fandom.com/wiki/Detailed_Guide_to_Diplomacy

    There are certain other values as well that are dependent on leader personality, although their impact is smaller.

    Random Personalities just has the AI choose a random other AI leader's personality values (which may be less suited to them).

    I'm glad you had a positive experience with diplomacy.

    The vassal AI clears a large number of penalties upon capitulation, and applies a large modifier based on how you treat them...I'll look at this.

    I plan on making major improvements to diplomacy, deals, etc. AI throughout this year.

    Can't take credit for the spy changes, I didn't touch that code.
     
    Last edited: Feb 14, 2020
  14. civplayer33

    civplayer33 King

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    I also want to give a shoutout to the WC-behavior by the AI...I've seen some very good and surprisingly competent moves there where I was successfully antagonized multiple times despite holding a vast majority of the "seats".
     
  15. CrazyG

    CrazyG Deity

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    I still see weird world congress behavior. There are resolutions that everyone constantly supports, like historical landmarks or the natural wonder buff. No Alexander, you don't have a natural wonder, you don't want this. Neutral would be okay, but he outright supports it and thank me for suggesting it.

    You regularly see AI that support both Casus Belli and Standing Army Tax, even though they are total opposites. Usually if one of these passes, all AI will support repealing it as well. Like Mongolia proposed Casus Belli and thanked me for suggesting repealing it, WTF?

    My last game I went to propose passport system. Before I got my suggestion, the iroquious already proposed passport system, I had a diplomat in their capital and thought about buying some votes. The turn after suggesting it, I check his views towards the resolutions, and he opposes passport system. He uses 10 of 12 votes against his own proposal.

    Usually all civs support all projects all the time. I recall India with no coastal cities proposing treasure fleet, and civs intending to win by tourism all supporting stuff like UN or international spacestation.
    That's how I feel. I actually want to lose occasionally, the game should have the option to be hard. For years I switched between immortal and deity, usually losing one and winning the other. More than once AI improvement would knock me down, sometimes to emperor, and I would a few games of experience on a patch before moving back up to immortal, then deity. It hasn't been like that for at least a year.
     
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  16. SuperNoobCamper

    SuperNoobCamper Prince

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    A holy site is constructed in CS if you pay them to improve a resource now!
     
  17. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

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    Yet in recent discussions you said the Anti-warmonger bonus was so painful (before the recent update) that the only time you could make progress against the AI was by using citadels. I feel there's a disconnect here.
     
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  18. CrazyG

    CrazyG Deity

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    You can dominate peacefully on deity, the AI just sucks at science you can take a tech/culture lead if you used your specialists or religion to get those yields. I think basically any wonder can be built pretty consistently, and a decent start with an early religion can build a whole lot of them. This is very recent though, the last 6 or so months only.

    An example is that I can pretty regularly build the Great Library, for years it was just about impossible on deity or even immortal. I'm not doing anything notable either; just click pottery then shift click writing at the start of the game. If your capital has enough production for like a 7 turn build time you will usually get it, you don't even need pantheon science. The archer nerf sort of slowed this down, but really the AI on Deity very, very rarely declares war within the first 80 turns (Aztec is the exception). I think it is also why authority AI keep falling behind tradition and progress in my games.
    At some point the warmonger bonus did get way out of line. If you check the 3-pop challenge, I think I mention that when fighting Russia and controlling two capitals I faced a 40+% warmonger fervor. I recall games in late 2019 I would take a single city and the AI got an 81% bonus from that alone, which sometimes I really couldn't overcome. I might win that game peacefully, but militarily it was brutal unless I had a big tech lead. I'm not backing down on those comments, Persia getting an 81% bonus because I took some junk city he forward settled was pure absolute BS, an example of seriously bad game design (I'm aware it wasn't the design goal and I don't mind G experimenting, but holy god that patch was so painful to play).

    The new one is probably too generous to warmongers, you can get someone's capital and confront a tiny, like 3% fervor penatly. Honestly I'd be fine reverting to some of the older systems, I don't know exactly which patch it was but I think whenever the distance modifier got added it frankly became an abomination. Sure the older systems weren't perfect (I was someone who criticized them), but I've really realized that they generally did work. Even if you did work around the penalties by capturing only the non-capital cities, that did present a pretty decent downside to deal with. I'm willing to acknowledge I was wrong in some of those assessments.
     
  19. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch Supporter

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    AI resolution support if 'neutral' is largely driven by a desire to make other civs like them more if they think they'll like the proposal.

    G
     
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  20. SuperNoobCamper

    SuperNoobCamper Prince

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    A city with 60 :c5rangedstrength: in medieval era .... No, it's not India with the old Qila, 4th UC is updated and i have no idea what is this ?
    Spoiler What am i missing ? :
     

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