New Beta Version - January 28th (1/28)

[Enrico Swagolo]

The expansion really needs to be toned down. It's not even the middle of classical and Harun has 6 cities, Hiawatha has 5, Washington (or somebody else) has 5...

Before they didn't expand enough but I feel the value should be something between pre-28 and 28.

Also SoPol acquisition rate definitely is increased, the costs feel reduced. Was it intended? I've never gotten an entire policy branch that early even when I had more incense laying around. AI is also affected, everyone is by now 4-5 policies when usually they should be 2-3 by this point, me included (even with the incense seen in the save that wouldn't be enough to get a whole policy branch before turn 150).

In my previous 28b game SoPols were also getting a much faster acquisition despite no real cultural tiles around and no cultural pantheon.

Is it intended? Seems a bit too fast. Never got policy branch before Oracle before, but did that on the first game today with no cultural tiles/pantheon.

It was precisely 1000BC when I got the Tradition branch on the game from the saves

 

[Kolaris]

I've increased late game tech costs by a lot and I still can't quite hit ~200 turns per Era on Marathon. I too am puzzled by why they got cheaper again.

 

[Gazebo]

I've increased late game tech costs by a lot and I still can't quite hit ~200 turns per Era on Marathon. I too am puzzled by why they got cheaper again.

Standard games saw AI sitting at early Information ~2000AD. Just a hair too slow.

Epic/Marathon are strange beasts. I just need to adjust the tech cost inflation for those gamespeeds a bit (all 'core' changes are assumed for standard speed).

G

 

[Gazebo]

The expansion really needs to be toned down. It's not even the middle of classical and Harun has 6 cities, Hiawatha has 5, Washington (or somebody else) has 5...

Before they didn't expand enough but I feel the value should be something between pre-28 and 28.

Also SoPol acquisition rate definitely is increased, the costs feel reduced. Was it intended? I've never gotten an entire policy branch that early even when I had more incense laying around. AI is also affected, everyone is by now 4-5 policies when usually they should be 2-3 by this point, me included (even with the incense seen in the save that wouldn't be enough to get a whole policy branch before turn 150).

In my previous 28b game SoPols were also getting a much faster acquisition despite no real cultural tiles around and no cultural pantheon.

Is it intended? Seems a bit too fast. Never got policy branch before Oracle before, but did that on the first game today with no cultural tiles/pantheon.

It was precisely 1000BC when I got the Tradition branch on the game from the saves

I added a check for JFD for dummy policies counting towards total, wonder if it is breaking somehow. This is why we beta!

 

[Enrico Swagolo]

I added a check for JFD for dummy policies counting towards total, wonder if it is breaking somehow. This is why we beta!

...Also it may sound strange but a value of one tile suddenly increased. Sugar tile on forest was 3f1p1g IIRC but suddenly one turn in early classical it became 4F1P1G. It is now 4F1G after cutting the forest, still no plantation on it.

It happened after I got Bronze Working I think, but I finished Tradition pretty much the same turn. Either Bronze Working for some reason adds +1F to Sugar or Tradition finisher considers Sugar a Great Person improvement.

That or there's some building I got that affects it but I don't know which could it be.

Nevermind it was market

 

[Funak]

Steam mill nerf was only 1 citizen of production (went from 1 per 2 to 1 per 3). This was a 'doing a little too well in human hands' issue tied to Slater Mill, the Order factory tenet, and Imperialism. Combo's power was a little too much (esp. the Imperialism 'free factory' policy). Same for SotL - the AI is smarter now with ranged naval units, but humans still OP.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the steam-mill actually gets way less than a normal factory in those situations, so I really don't see your complaint about combos.
I mean unless I don't have any coal at all(for seaports) England is the one civ where I completely ignore slater mill. Because the steam mill is cheaper, already available from the same tech and you doesn't cost coal (so the 'free' status is slightly worse). Order Factory tenet halves the build-time of factories and England pretty much always have factories in all cities by the time they get to it (so no real synergy there).
The Imperialism free factory I'm not exactly sure about, is it also coal-free? In that case it clearly does not favor England, but even if it isn't coal-free, English Steammills are cheaper to build and have cheaper maintenance, meaning the 'free' part of the policy still doesn't benefit England more.

All in all, I can totally see the need for the SoTL change, I really don't like seeing unique units with lower strength than non-uniques so I kinda wish there wish there was a better solution, but this works.
However I really don't see why both it and the steam-mill would require nerfs, the steam mill was totally fine especially considering England have like zero early-game presence.

Elizabeth and Hiawatha are expansionists, though, so that's not surprising. Ramesses expansion is interesting. Overall, though, the AI is a bit more aggressive (not necessarily militarily) in the 1/28 version.

You're surprised by Ramesses? He has been spamming cities since like forever, he tend to do a lot worse now however.

That's the exact opposite complaint/concern of everyone else, so either we now live in wacky-upside-down land, or someone is exaggerating (not saying you are, but that there's a pretty stark discrepancy here).

He is right about some of the plot-decisions being rather off. I can share a situation I ran into earlier:

I had a city with 3 pop, on default it was working two plain wheat-tiles (2f 1p) and 1 flat-land plain marble(1f 3p). Switching that city to production-focus from default resulted in the city still working both the plain wheat-tiles but replacing the marble with a hill plain gold-tile (2p 1c 1g). I'm completely fine with production-focus putting some extra value on culture/gold compared to food (I don't necessarily think it leads to more food eventually, but whatever), however switching to production focus should probably never lower my production compared to default.

 

[Gazebo]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the steam-mill actually gets way less than a normal factory in those situations, so I really don't see your complaint about combos.
I mean unless I don't have any coal at all(for seaports) England is the one civ where I completely ignore slater mill. Because the steam mill is cheaper, already available from the same tech and you doesn't cost coal (so the 'free' status is slightly worse). Order Factory tenet halves the build-time of factories and England pretty much always have factories in all cities by the time they get to it (so no real synergy there).
The Imperialism free factory I'm not exactly sure about, is it also coal-free? In that case it clearly does not favor England, but even if it isn't coal-free, English Steammills are cheaper to build and have cheaper maintenance, meaning the 'free' part of the policy still doesn't benefit England more.

Factory is 1 production per 4 citizens, so Steam Mill is more efficient (doesn't need coal, gains gold bonus for city, is cheaper/earlier). Slater Mill gives you a free Steam Mill in addition to the Slater Mill effect, so the Steam Mill becomes a pure positive (no maintenance, no resource use). Order boosts Factory science (boosting Mill by proxy), and Imperialism grants a free Building class of factory, so thus the Steam Mill. Not to mention the Crystal Palace. Factories have quite a few policy/tenet/building add-on benefits, thus their UB has the potential to be substantially stronger than the building it replaces.

England's early presence is strong on coasts, and once you hit Patronage for the extra spies. England can, with correct techs/policies, have almost double the spy total of other civs. That's potentially huge.

England's bonuses aren't straightforward - it takes some synergy with policies/beliefs/tenets/buildings to really get it going. But the synergy was just a hair too strong with the Mill and the SotL (esp. latter), so here we are.

G

 

[Funak]

Factory is 1 production per 4 citizens, so Steam Mill is more efficient (doesn't need coal, gains gold bonus for city, is cheaper/earlier). Slater Mill gives you a free Steam Mill in addition to the Slater Mill effect, so the Steam Mill becomes a pure positive (no maintenance, no resource use). Order boosts Factory science (boosting Mill by proxy), and Imperialism grants a free Building class of factory, so thus the Steam Mill. Not to mention the Crystal Palace. Factories have quite a few policy/tenet/building add-on benefits, thus their UB has the potential to be substantially stronger than the building it replaces.

The only valid point about synergy that I actually see here is that if you're low on coal you're still going to have Steam Mills in all cities, meaning you're going to have the bonus science from Workers' Faculties (or Worker Faculties, civpedia uses both ).

What I meant about the Slater mill thing is that with a other civs, the slater mill free factory saves you 1 coal and 5 gpt maintenance, for England it only saves you 4gpt and no coal (so a lot less powerful). The Steam mill is also available from the same tech as the slater mill, where the factory comes a lot later (so building the mill for an early factory is a lot more viable).
I'm not saying the Slater mill is necessarily bad for England or anything, but it is not a positive synergy, and you're usually better off just 'hardbuilding' the Steam mill instead.

 

[Gazebo]

The only valid point about synergy that I actually see here is that if you're low on coal you're still going to have Steam Mills in all cities, meaning you're going to have the bonus science from Workers' Faculties (or Worker Faculties, civpedia uses both ).

What I meant about the Slater mill thing is that with a other civs, the slater mill free factory saves you 1 coal and 5 gpt maintenance, for England it only saves you 4gpt and no coal (so a lot less powerful). The Steam mill is also available from the same tech as the slater mill, where the factory comes a lot later (so building the mill for an early factory is a lot more viable).
I'm not saying the Slater mill is necessarily bad for England or anything, but it is not a positive synergy, and you're usually better off just 'hardbuilding' the Steam mill instead.

Perhaps, but still stands to reason that the England player gains a Wonder that grants their UB (not entirely unique, mind you), and then has a handful of policies and tenets that directly buff it.

1 production per 3 citizen v. 1 per 4 was not a huge nerf. Keeps it from getting out of control.

G

 

[Funak]

1 production per 3 citizen v. 1 per 4 was not a huge nerf. Keeps it from getting out of control.

A normal factory gives 1p/4 pop or 3p/12 pop.
New Steam mill gives 1p/3 pop or 4p/12 pop.
Old Steam Mill gave 1p/2 pop or 6p/12 pop.

You're welcome to change things however you want but you're definitely not allowed to say that was not a huge nerf. It was massive.

 

[Gazebo]

A normal factory gives 1p/4 pop or 3p/12 pop.
New Steam mill gives 1p/3 pop or 4p/12 pop.
Old Steam Mill gave 1p/2 pop or 6p/12 pop.

You're welcome to change things however you want but you're definitely not allowed to say that was not a huge nerf. It was massive.

It's a difference of 5 production in a pop-30 city. Massive?

G

 

[Funak]

It's a difference of 5 production in a pop-30 city. Massive?

The old Steam mill had double the production per pop of the factory, the current one provides an extra 33% production per pop, that's a 67% nerf, aka massive.

 

[Gazebo]

The old Steam mill had double the production per pop of the factory, the current one provides an extra 33% production per pop, that's a 67% nerf, aka massive.

Funak...by that logic, a shift from 0 to 1 is, by %, infinite and utterly, incomprehensibly massive. Game-breakingly massive. Universe-endingly massive.

5 production in a 30 pop city. +15 v. +10. Not massive.

G

 

[Funak]

5 production in a 30 pop city. +15 v. +10. Not massive.

By that logic nothing is massive. If you can't complain about a 50/33% change, what can you complain about?

Honestly, I really did not see the steam mill over-performing at all. The AI were doing terribly as them and the games I did as them the SoTL stood out as really powerful but not the mill. The steam mill was strong enough to be interesting, and strong enough to motivate you to get through the awful early-game as England, but it did not necessarily stand out as stronger than the other Industrial era UBs, like the Ostrog and the MoMA. Now it honestly looks pretty boring.

 

[Gazebo]

By that logic nothing is massive. If you can't complain about a 50/33% change, what can you complain about?

Honestly, I really did not see the steam mill over-performing at all. The AI were doing terribly as them and the games I did as them the SoTL stood out as really powerful but not the mill. The steam mill was strong enough to be interesting, and strong enough to motivate you to get through the awful early-game as England, but it did not necessarily stand out as stronger than the other Industrial era UBs, like the Ostrog and the MoMA. Now it honestly looks pretty boring.

This was a human fix, not an AI fix. I've seen a few cases of humans really maxing out the mill's potential, to the game's balance detriment.

You can totally complain about the change! Nothing is permanent in a beta. But don't depict it irrationally.

G

 

[Funak]

This was a human fix, not an AI fix. I've seen a few cases of humans really maxing out the mill's potential, to the game's balance detriment.

So a human can maximize those 5 hammers per 30 pop better than the AI somehow?

You can totally complain about the change! Nothing is permanent in a beta. But don't depict it irrationally.

The Steam-mill change wasn't beta however. Also, how could I possibly depict it irrationally when I'm being completely rational about it.



Also, gotta say, that ZoC thing is hilarious . Had a horseman move through rough terrain for maybe 20 tiles in one turn during an early war . It completely destroys all form of strategy, but it is pretty fun.

 

[Enrico Swagolo]

By the way what was changed in Deal AI?

Seems about the same as it was, they still offer 2-3 gold per luxury but you can haggle to 4 most of the time (it's okay and makes sense - when people trade, the first offer is rarely the best one).

They still offer weird stuff with embassies like Embassy for Embassy and my Luxury/4GPT from time to time, didn't notice any changes.

 

[Tubbilicious]

England's bonuses aren't straightforward - it takes some synergy with policies/beliefs/tenets/buildings to really get it going. But the synergy was just a hair too strong with the Mill and the SotL (esp. latter), so here we are.

G

The interesting question now is how England fares with these changes but without this particular synergy. If England is only strong with this synergy, we have an issue.

(The Synergy in question, should anyone wonder, is in combining policies and wonders that specifically add bonuses to England's factory replacement.)


On a slightly separate note, I'm not convinced about the SoTL nerf. England is supposed to be powerful in the sea at that period. On top of that the SoTL already requires iron. Perhaps, should it be needed, we could consider some alternative strengths for the SoTL aside from raw ranged combat strength.

 

[Gazebo]

By the way what was changed in Deal AI?

Seems about the same as it was, they still offer 2-3 gold per luxury but you can haggle to 4 most of the time (it's okay and makes sense - when people trade, the first offer is rarely the best one).

They still offer weird stuff with embassies like Embassy for Embassy and my Luxury/4GPT from time to time, didn't notice any changes.

Balanced strategic value a bit, optimized vote commitment, vassalage, de-vassalage, third party war/peace. Luxuries pretty much untouched. Also fixed some issues where deals wouldn't go through properly (resulting in the 'phantom deals' some users were seeing).

The interesting question now is how England fares with these changes but without this particular synergy. If England is only strong with this synergy, we have an issue.

Yep, agree. As I said, balance changes not set in stone, so we'll have to keep an eye on ol' Lizzy.

On a slightly separate note, I'm not convinced about the SoTL nerf. England is supposed to be powerful in the sea at that period. On top of that the SoTL already requires iron. Perhaps, should it be needed, we could consider some alternative strengths for the SoTL aside from raw ranged combat strength.

Re: SoTL – It is lower damage, but double attack means it 'acts' like 48 RCS. Also extra vision.

G

 

[ExpiredReign]

Yeah, there definitely is something a little odd with the Social Policy acquisition. I had 6 policies by turn 60. They cam at turns 5,12,18,20,33 & 60.