New Beta Version - January 3rd (1/3)

[janat08]

Could the carrier be a line of ship, perhaps? It obviously wouldn't get aircraft until late game, but it could potentially be the "deep inland bombard" line of ships.

As in ship that is useless in the waters? Like guided missile?

 

[CrabHelmet]

I think I like almost all of these changes on paper. Time to test!

@Gazebo; how easy is it to learn how to mod Civ V with no prior experience? I'd love to be able to test my own personal tweaks to be able to give you better feedback.

 

[Tekamthi]

3+ range at sea is easy mode and completely negates melee ships.

I agree completely -- re: my immediately previous post(s): a flat naval movement debuff was not really what I had intended to highlight as a solution, though in the actual turn that combat is being performed there is truly little distinction between -1 range and -2 movement. Your point about "travel" turns though is right on.

I wonder, G, if the range change here is moreso intended to balance things at the coast between naval vs land, or in battles in ocean between naval vs naval, or both equally? I've assumed that it is primarily focused on the former, though I recognize that both scenarios have their own issues.

If its a coast-primary thing, slower movement in coast, leaving the ocean open to everyone's speedboats, might be more fun than 1 range battleships.

If range is indeed the more important issue overall from the community's perspective, would removing the +range promo not be preferable as far as bringing parity to AI/human? I think the 3+ range problem you've cited is maybe more precisely characterized as a problem of 2+ range disparity between opposing units. changing all to 1 range, OR removing the +range promo from all, effectively addresses either description of the issue, no? I guess leaving the promo in allows for more variety on some level in this new paradigm, but really i think its disparity in unit ability, and human's advantage in picking the "right" promos, that leaves the AI far behind.

I swallowed the summer movement change just fine in the end, and maybe i'm just experiencing the same misgivings here, but I just find it too jarring that a dromon would have same range potential as battleship. And yes I realize that I risk the fury of realism-argument naysayers on this point

 

[Gidoza]

I was just curious - would it be good for the Morale bonus on Heroic Epic to only apply to produced units in the city (rather than purchased)? I think this follows the half-experience idea pretty well and would cut down on some of the lameness of having one's entire army always being built wherever the Heroic Epic happens to be. It should be a bonus, not the source of all the troops in the empire. If it isn't apply on gold-purchased units, then the effect would be pretty normative and nice without inspiring scrupulosity.

If its a coast-primary thing, slower movement in coast, leaving the ocean open to everyone's speedboats, might be more fun than 1 range battleships.

That's a really interesting thought that I think would serve the naval-land battle really well. However, range VS melee at sea is still a problem and would require another solution.

 

[Tekamthi]

@Gazebo; how easy is it to learn how to mod Civ V with no prior experience? I'd love to be able to test my own personal tweaks to be able to give you better feedback.

its not hard to get started with DB changes (I'm guessing most of what you have in mind can be accomplished there)... if you have any background with any programming languages at all, you can probably read most .lua fairly easily, too. Forget the .dll though lol, unless you're already very comfortable with C# or w/e it is

There might be better ways to get started, but speaking from experience, you might have some success if you start by making a modpack, and implementing your edits to the files that result. Trying to track DB entries across the mod xml and sql directly is very confusing. You'll probably want to grab a copy of notepad++, some kind of sql DB viewer, your copy of firetuner (through civ sdk on steam), a beer or six, and several hours to poke around and experiment (use firetuner to spawn things in, don't just 'play' your changes, it takes too long this way). Its really not hard, at least to get started -- my formal technical background is non-existant, and I like to think I at least understand what's going on under the hood now, after a few months of tinkering.

 

[Stalker0]

I was a big opponent of the naval range change last time...and I can admit when I was wrong. It was a change for the better.

So this time I’m on board. I do have concerns about artillery, but realistically a smart player won’t let his ships get killed by artillery...it will just wound them.

And if a player goes a lot of arty then you land some cavalry and go crush them. They won’t have problems landing since the cleansed the coast line.

So I’m ready to test this one out

 

[notque]

I feel like I prefer the elegance of citizens always requiring 2 food. For specialists to add a negative to them, which I think is smart, I'd go with costing 1 gold. so 2 food 1 gold. That doesn't work for Gold based specialists, so perhaps a happiness negative of .5 happiness.

Populations have anger at bankers, and that could be reflected there. Also the 1 gold makes sense because governments give money to art/science/etc to support them. You could even go 2 gold for specialists if you wanted because 2 gold = 1 food.

I think that's far more elegant, and makes more sense to me. But It's just an idea.

 

[notque]

The gold purchase curve is a WIP, but ultimately my hope is that pushing it closer to 1:1 means that gold and merchants are more appealing early game.

G

Personally I prefer the standard 2 gold = 1 production system, so it should end up being 2:1

 

[lunker]

Yay! Just finished a game!

Here's my knee jerk reaction.......

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO ORACLE RIP

MY 20% PRODUCTION IS THE ONLY REASON I PICKED PROGRES NOOOOOOO

100% agree with terracotta changes.

 

[notque]

What is the point of indirect fire on naval units when they have 1 range?

 

[bigcat88]

Will test how changes in navy and missles will help in my late infinite information era games.
In my last game(December version - on screen) it was impossible to capture city with defence 200 with navy units. Mine fields just always make my ships to stay in fire zone. And then missiles just destroys my navy, so best solution was send meat first(paratroopers,infantry) - and come close to city as possible with just crazy amount of troops. But it was very interesting, first time I was fighting AI with all techs researched like me(science victory was disabled).
It's a pity I didn't see how Japan AI in that game conquer all they see, maybe they can calculate better will be soldier alive after attack.

And I don't know, but I was pretty sure that in previous version defender of faith was not working for AI(not a founder) - don't see bonus +30% when attacking it's units in their land. With that bonus my meat will die much quickly, and no chance on zerg attack

 

[BiteInTheMark]

Will test how changes in navy and missles will help in my late infinite information era games.
In my last game(December version - on screen) it was impossible to capture city with defence 200 with navy units. Mine fields just always make my ships to stay in fire zone. And then missiles just destroys my navy, so best solution was send meat first(paratroopers,infantry) - and come close to city as possible with just crazy amount of troops. But it was very interesting, first time I was fighting AI with all techs researched like me(science victory was disabled).
It's a pity I didn't see how Japan AI in that game conquer all they see, maybe they can calculate better will be soldier alive after attack.

And I don't know, but I was pretty sure that in previous version defender of faith was not working for AI(not a founder) - don't see bonus +30% when attacking it's units in their land. With that bonus my meat will die much quickly, and no chance on zerg attack

I think this is the version with the defence bug. The defence production you can establish in cities was calculated with 100% production to defence, instead of 10%

 

[pineappledan]

Is it possible to make range vs naval targets 1 less than range vs land targets? Like, they could have different rangefinders for each, or every ocean tile is essentially coded as an obstruction like forest or hill?

That way you could still do inland bombardments, but not have the problem of massive range issues outstripping unit vision in sea battles

 

[Txurce]

What is the point of indirect fire on naval units when they have 1 range?

Sounds like a bit of tidying up is called for here.

 

[Gidoza]

Perhaps indirect fire could change to the shot's taking no movement? (I'm not sure how that helps, but...)

 

[BiteInTheMark]

Maybe give post rennaisance ships the ability to shot at range of 2, if they havent moved, and lose this ability this turn, if they move.
Ships would be still vulnerable to land arty fire, but once established, they can hold a beachhead.

 

[IcyAngel]

• Removed Civil Servants from CSD NWs (3 total)

Do I misunderstand this? For me, all the Civil Servant slots are still on the CSD National Wonders (Scrivener's Office, Printing Press, Wire Service).

 

[Tekamthi]

i posted this a few pages ago already amongst a longer list, but it truly is the favorite of the 4-5 solutions I suggested.. forgive the double post, but I'm curious as to the community's reaction:

instead of 1 range for all naval to solve the naval battles issues, consider adding the "force retreat" effect to naval ranged attacks (i think it exists only as "withering fire" promo right now, some UU horse gets it). With a reasonably high % applied, naval target will pull back one tile from almost each attack... every subsequent ranged unit wishing to land a strike on same turn, assuming they're all starting from roughly the same fleet position, will have to expend more and more movement to get to it.. this effect also works nicely on coasts imo.. you can land a strike or two on land units before they pull away out of range & land your own units.. turns a 1-turn beach battle into at least 2 w/o any other change

 

[BiteInTheMark]

i posted this a few pages ago already amongst a longer list, but it truly is the favorite of the 4-5 solutions I suggested.. forgive the double post, but I'm curious as to the community's reaction:

instead of 1 range for all naval to solve the naval battles issues, consider adding the "force retreat" effect to naval ranged attacks (i think it exists only as "withering fire" promo right now, some UU horse gets it). With a reasonably high % applied, naval target will pull back one tile from almost each attack... every subsequent ranged unit wishing to land a strike on same turn, assuming they're all starting from roughly the same fleet position, will have to expend more and more movement to get to it.. this effect also works nicely on coasts imo.. you can land a strike or two on land units before they pull away out of range & land your own units.. turns a 1-turn beach battle into at least 2 w/o any other change

Sry, but this can be abused by human. I would simply go a bit behind the unit and shot it with the first shot and push it even more into my armada.

 

[Txurce]

i posted this a few pages ago already amongst a longer list, but it truly is the favorite of the 4-5 solutions I suggested.. forgive the double post, but I'm curious as to the community's reaction:

instead of 1 range for all naval to solve the naval battles issues, consider adding the "force retreat" effect to naval ranged attacks (i think it exists only as "withering fire" promo right now, some UU horse gets it). With a reasonably high % applied, naval target will pull back one tile from almost each attack... every subsequent ranged unit wishing to land a strike on same turn, assuming they're all starting from roughly the same fleet position, will have to expend more and more movement to get to it.. this effect also works nicely on coasts imo.. you can land a strike or two on land units before they pull away out of range & land your own units.. turns a 1-turn beach battle into at least 2 w/o any other change

I think it would be a very interesting addition -- and could replace indirect fire.