New Beta Version - January 3rd (1/3)

[Tekamthi]

Sry, but this can be abused by human. I would simply go a bit behind the unit and shot it with the first shot and push it even more into my armada.

its true, but you're gonna use more movement to get behind it, and almost for sure will be within range next turn.. personally i enjoy having this consideration; angle of attack has never been an issue in the VP naval game, and as you pointed out it becomes a valid tactical consideration with this effect.

I suppose, to be fair to AI, it would have to consider this move on offense too, and right now it doesn't think this way... and maybe could not reasonably be trained to do so.. but then again you could just turn up the spam and let it work things out that way

 

[Ziad]

I've reached Classical on Marathon/Huge/Deity and all civs are on relatively equal footing +/- 1 policy and +/-2 techs.

I went India with Tradition and I can feel the capital being so much more powerful. I love the changes.

I have to say though that Oracle looks to be underwhelming with the changes. I'm already getting 80 CPT with Tradition, and I'm still two techs away.Just giving 300 culture and GAP (before gamespeed scaling) feels just way too weak. I'm not going to even bother with it.

 

[pineappledan]

i posted this a few pages ago already amongst a longer list, but it truly is the favorite of the 4-5 solutions I suggested.. forgive the double post, but I'm curious as to the community's reaction:

instead of 1 range for all naval to solve the naval battles issues, consider adding the "force retreat" effect to naval ranged attacks (i think it exists only as "withering fire" promo right now, some UU horse gets it). With a reasonably high % applied, naval target will pull back one tile from almost each attack... every subsequent ranged unit wishing to land a strike on same turn, assuming they're all starting from roughly the same fleet position, will have to expend more and more movement to get to it.. this effect also works nicely on coasts imo.. you can land a strike or two on land units before they pull away out of range & land your own units.. turns a 1-turn beach battle into at least 2 w/o any other change

I preferred your idea of every shot taking 2 moves instead of 1. This proposal doesn't fix the problem of naval units just being cavalry; now it's just every boat is just a winged hussar/cossack. And if it was on literally every ship then naval battles would be an absurd game of billiards

 

[LukaSlovenia29]

I'd prefer if the Oracle instead of giving a relatively small amount of culture/GAP would instead decrease the costs of future policies, just like one of Progress' policies does, and the Eiffel Tower.

 

[CrabHelmet]

That makes Oracle and Eiffel Tower feel a little similar for me.

 

[BiteInTheMark]

its true, but you're gonna use more movement to get behind it, and almost for sure will be within range next turn.. personally i enjoy having this consideration; angle of attack has never been an issue in the VP naval game, and as you pointed out it becomes a valid tactical consideration with this effect.

I suppose, to be fair to AI, it would have to consider this move on offense too, and right now it doesn't think this way... and maybe could not reasonably be trained to do so.. but then again you could just turn up the spam and let it work things out that way

Dont understand me wrong, I like the idea. But as you already said, the AI will be never be able to consider such tactics, increasing again the tactical gap between human and AI.
For this, I think, 1 range for all ships is an design desicion i can life with.

 

[Gazebo]

its true, but you're gonna use more movement to get behind it, and almost for sure will be within range next turn.. personally i enjoy having this consideration; angle of attack has never been an issue in the VP naval game, and as you pointed out it becomes a valid tactical consideration with this effect.

I suppose, to be fair to AI, it would have to consider this move on offense too, and right now it doesn't think this way... and maybe could not reasonably be trained to do so.. but then again you could just turn up the spam and let it work things out that way

Again, the problem with the changes you and others have suggested for naval units is that they greatly complicate it. I'd rather just stick with 1 Range and allow Range to increase it to 2 if you want to go in that direction.

G

 

[Tekamthi]

I preferred your idea of every shot taking 2 moves instead of 1. This proposal doesn't fix the problem of naval units just being cavalry; now it's just every boat is just a winged hussar/cossack. And if it was on literally every ship then naval battles would be an absurd game of billiards

lol hey i enjoy billiards, absurd or not... definitely more fun than flaccid battleships. Valid points nonetheless... I started an industrial era game this morning and I'm not loving the range, yet. I'll give it a few runs though.

Again, the problem with the changes you and others have suggested for naval units is that they greatly complicate it. I'd rather just stick with 1 Range and allow Range to increase it to 2 if you want to go in that direction.

G

I understand this perspective -- regardless I do feel like we're losing a lot of human vs human "fun" in favor of AI vs human "balance"; but there's always mod mods. I'll focus my efforts there. Thanks for the update, G!

 

[janat08]

Again, the problem with the changes you and others have suggested for naval units is that they greatly complicate it. I'd rather just stick with 1 Range and allow Range to increase it to 2 if you want to go in that direction.

G

Why have ranged ships, so that you could stick one into your barbarian civ and kite at ships passing by? Buffing vision on ai is beyond impossible, maybe delete move after shoot?

 

[Txurce]

Again, the problem with the changes you and others have suggested for naval units is that they greatly complicate it. I'd rather just stick with 1 Range and allow Range to increase it to 2 if you want to go in that direction.

I forgot about that promotion, mainly because my playstyle didn't need it, so I almost never picked it. But it does restore what is currently lost, especially if you focus on it early enough, so that it's there by the time artillery shows up. It makes me feel better about the change.

 

[tu_79]

None of the other proposals for naval range solve the issue, being that suddenly combat is too easy. I understand people that want to retaliate against artillery but, with proper movement promotions ships should be able to stay always out of range. Stalker proposed strategy seems a good approach, and very realistic too. Anyone remember D-day in Nombardy?

With a few ships with range promotion, even second coast line can be cleared.

 

[Gazebo]

Small hotfix, savegame compatible. Fixed Range Promotion not available for Naval Ranged units quirk, and did a thing I intended to do to replace Indirect Fire - added Splash I/II off of Targeting 3. So now you have to choose between +1 Range and AOE damage for your first Level 4 Promotion. Fun!

Also fixed LUA issue for no-EUI versions.

Link: https://mega.nz/#!vINRHZYZ!vVTIvV-17qTBOAIqZlBlwzxzZQVDPrbvedk-aZVNoIA

G

 

[Deadstarre]

Current issue is Carthage/ gold ruins being really powerful.

When investing a barracks only costs 60 gold, 3 gold per pasture sure appeals to me. Just saying

Probly a lot of the gold generators will need review now if the design is aiming toward better ratios for buildings early on (which I think it should); likely will need its own thread. This will translate into another buff for tall I think as well; +10 gold per additional city to building costs (inflation) when monuments were 70 gold vs same increase starting from 40 gold hurts expanding more

edit: could have summed that up as "increased gold costs from expanding hurts a lot more when gold is more valuable"

 

[ElliotS]

Probly a lot of the gold generators will need review now if the design is aiming toward better ratios for buildings early on (which I think it should); likely will need its own thread. This will translate into another buff for tall I think as well; +10 gold per additional city to building costs (inflation) when monuments were 70 gold vs same increase starting from 40 gold hurts expanding more

edit: could have summed that up as "increased gold costs from expanding hurts a lot more when gold is more valuable"

With the lowered gold inflation do we really need that cost increase? It makes no sense realistically that investing in a monument in your 5th city costs more than your 4th, and I'm not sure it's needed gameplay wise.

 

[BiteInTheMark]

With the lowered gold inflation do we really need that cost increase? It makes no sense realistically that investing in a monument in your 5th city costs more than your 4th, and I'm not sure it's needed gameplay wise.

I agree, I hated that mechanic already in Civ 6, and its a strong nerf to wide empires This shouldnt happen.
But I liked the idea from an other post, specialists not using more food, but instead using gold, more and more by era.

 

[LukaSlovenia29]

That makes Oracle and Eiffel Tower feel a little similar for me.

True, but they'd come many ages apart, plus Oracle would still decrease illiteracy whereas Eiffel Tower would decrease boredom.

 

[Stalker0]

But I liked the idea from an other post, specialists not using more food, but instead using gold, more and more by era.

Agreed its an interesting idea.

 

[Moi Magnus]

Can "Time" be turned off with random victories enabled? I hate the game ending abruptly and going to the score-leader.

It should. I was talking of the situation where everything is enabled. Victory types manually disabled stay disabled.

 

[ElliotS]

But I liked the idea from an other post, specialists not using more food, but instead using gold, more and more by era.

I don't. I think the food requirement is better.

 

[notque]

I agree, I hated that mechanic already in Civ 6, and its a strong nerf to wide empires This shouldnt happen.
But I liked the idea from an other post, specialists not using more food, but instead using gold, more and more by era.

Me too! (Casually hoping no one notices he made the original post)