New Beta Version - January 3rd (1/3)

[Deadstarre]

With the lowered gold inflation do we really need that cost increase? It makes no sense realistically that investing in a monument in your 5th city costs more than your 4th, and I'm not sure it's needed gameplay wise.

and of course, my just having planted a 7th city instantly increasing the needed investment in a workshop for my capital. It feels weird to play, and they really add up on every single purchase. I'd be interested to hear G's thoughts about the per-city building inflation and why it is or isn't needed

 

[tu_79]

2 food per specialist is not a true elegant solution, because they eat more food every passing era. It was like 2-2-3-4-5-..., now it's 3-3-4-5-6...

Increased unhappiness could be a solution. If specialists are so good at provinding yields, they are better at fighting unhappiness, so a logical mechanic is to increase unhappiness from specialists. Except that AI sometimes ignores unhappiness.

True problems with that many specialists are:
- Really good tiles, like GPTI stop being worked. One can understand not working a mine or a sea tile, but something with a resource in it? Even GPTI stop being worked in favor of specialists.
- Too many great people late game. This is not tall vs wide. Even wide civs are working a lot of specialists. It's simply too many great people, all stacking +25% GP bonuses, plus those many specialists, too many historical events, rushing through eras with GS, sf sf.

 

[Gazebo]

and of course, my just having planted a 7th city instantly increasing the needed investment in a workshop for my capital. It feels weird to play, and they really add up on every single purchase. I'd be interested to hear G's thoughts about the per-city building inflation and why it is or isn't needed

Gold tends to scale well wide, and - since there's no 'global gold modifier' per city (like science or culture), this is a check on wide power for purchases.

G

 

[Gazebo]

I would have found this to be a simple, intuitive solution to the abundance of gold in the lategame. 2 Food and rising gold cost by era.
But if this would create a big amount of extra work to teach the AI the correct use, iam ok with your decision.



Why do we want this?

Again, though, you're making assumptions about the late-game without testing what has already been changed in this regard. Shame!

G

 

[DarkZero]

Is there even a reason to not go freedom every single game?
I don't think there is any policy more powerful than the specialists consume half the food one, I find myself going freedom every single game, any civ, just because of that one policy alone...and now the specialists consume even more food, making it even stronger.

 

[CrazyG]

Really good tiles, like GPTI stop being worked.

I think the key word is stopped. Its only a problem late in the game, and its caused by two things
-really high specialist yields (factories and tech buffs)
-plentiful food available. Usually I don't even know how I still have food. I would move some of the % bonuses to food to growth. Also progress and authority get a lot of food as a bonus yield, so they will grow even if the city thinks its stagnating.

A big plus for lowering specialist yields overall would be that the existing flavors have more impact (fealty, statecraft, and artistry all give all specialists a different yield. Currenlty its just a detail in the blur of yields)

 

[Deadstarre]

Gold tends to scale well wide, and - since there's no 'global gold modifier' per city (like science or culture), this is a check on wide power for purchases.

G

But it never applied to units. So... in effect gold has been allowed to scale wide maybe too nicely, but only in regards to military? Would it make sense to halve the building inflation cost and now also apply it to unit purchases?

edit: im not sure about wonder rushing and how it works there either, dont think I paid enough attention.

 

[CrazyG]

Is there even a reason to not go freedom every single game?
I don't think there is any policy more powerful than the specialists consume half the food one, I find myself going freedom every single game, any civ, just because of that one policy alone...and now the specialists consume even more food, making it even stronger.

Two free techs and military academies in every city is pretty darn powerful

I find the half food thing really underwhelming to be honest.

But it never applied to units. So... in effect gold has been allowed to scale wide maybe too nicely, but only in regards to military? Would it make sense to halve the building inflation cost and now also apply it to unit purchases?

edit: im not sure about wonder rushing and how it works there either, dont think I paid enough attention.

Are you sure it doesn't apply to units? The cost to buy a worker increases over time (which could be cities, but also could be the inflation from technology)

 

[infidel88]

Is there even a reason to not go freedom every single game?

Aside from 30 military academies and research labs way before their time. Or tanks without ZOC. Yup, no reason to go anything but freedom.

 

[Txurce]

Aside from 30 military academies and research labs way before their time. Or tanks without ZOC. Yup, no reason to go anything but freedom.

I have research labs up in most or all of my cities before I reach ideologies -- which (along with the Spaceships policy) is the main reason I don't pick Industry. But if circumstances steer me toward picking it, the MA's and (especially) the two free techs make it very workable in pursuit of a SV.

 

[CrazyG]

Or tanks without ZOC.

I thought that got nerfed (I hope it did)

I have research labs up in most or all of my cities before I reach ideologies -- which (along with the Spaceships policy) is the main reason I don't pick Industry.

You mean order? If you have to fight alot, skipping research labs in the tech tree can be really nice

 

[Txurce]

I thought that got nerfed (I hope it did)


You mean order? If you have to fight alot, skipping research labs in the tech tree can be really nice

Order? Of course I meant Order -- wasn't that perfectly clear?

Seriously, I've never had to fight that much... but good to keep in mind.

 

[Deadstarre]

Are you sure it doesn't apply to units? The cost to buy a worker increases over time (which could be cities, but also could be the inflation from technology)

yes. i just started a quick game to double check and be sure i wasn't ready for the senility home; when I planted the 2nd city the cost of a granary went up by 10, the price of a warrior stayed the same. Its another reason people have had to be choosing spending their gold on units. Wide should already have the military edge over tall through supply cap, I dont think it makes sense to have inflation continue working this way exactly.

 

[CrazyG]

yes. i just started a quick game to double check and be sure i wasn't ready for the senility home; when I planted the 2nd city the cost of a granary went up by 10, the price of a warrior stayed the same. Its another reason people have had to be choosing spending their gold on units. Wide should already have the military edge over tall through supply cap, I dont think it makes sense to have inflation continue working this way exactly.

Well then, the solution to the military purchase thing might have been easier than we thought.

 

[notque]

That was weird. I was playing a super casual king game to mess around with tradition and specialists now, and I just got roflstomped by the ai. Like, an attack i've never seen before. I wasn't playing like, ridiculously either. What just happened.

 

[Deadstarre]

Also progress and authority get a lot of food as a bonus yield, so they will grow even if the city thinks its stagnating.

this is something thats really annoying actually; because if I dont micro the citizens the city governor thinks he needs to be making substantial yield sacrifices in order to work food tiles to keep the city on a reasonable pace for growth, and he is completely unaware of all those instants.

 

[Kierkegaard]

• Naval Ranged units are now all a base 1 range

• Much like the artillery conundrum on land, the shift to 2 range dramatically changes the naval landscape, too much so.

This means you have to be basically in a tile directly to a city to attack it? For early naval ranged units that seems logical. But if I interpret this correctly an archer can shoot further than a hyper-modern destroyer or battleship, which might be a point of discussion for game reasons only. Realism wise it feels funky, in my humble opinion.

You mentioned the artillery conundrum, but that hasn't changed right?

I understand it dramatically changes the naval (and artillery) landscape. But in history this was very much the case.

For example one of the reasons Germany overrun Belgium in the great war, even despite Belgium having a hyper-modern fort belt as protection was because of long range artillery.
Long-range destroyers/battleship that can shoot missiles were pretty much a dramatics change to than ships that attacked with cannons.

Is the game reasons mainly because the AI has difficulty managing this change?

 

[Gazebo]

Well then, the solution to the military purchase thing might have been easier than we thought.

Buildings scale off of tech and empire size, units off of tech. I did this because many units also have building requirements for purchases in the later-game.

G

 

[Gazebo]

This means you have to be basically in a tile directly to a city to attack it? For early naval ranged units that seems logical. But if I interpret this correctly an archer can shoot further than a hyper-modern destroyer or battleship, which might be a point of discussion for game reasons only. Realism wise it feels funky, in my humble opinion.

You mentioned the artillery conundrum, but that hasn't changed right?

I understand it dramatically changes the naval (and artillery) landscape. But in history this was very much the case.

For example one of the reasons Germany overrun Belgium in the great war, even despite Belgium having a hyper-modern fort belt as protection was because of long range artillery.
Long-range destroyers/battleship that can shoot missiles were pretty much a dramatics change to than ships that attacked with cannons.

Is the game reasons mainly because the AI has difficulty managing this change?

Balance > realism. Within reason, of course, but I think this applies.

G

 

[CrazyG]

Buildings scale off of tech and empire size, units off of tech. I did this because many units also have building requirements for purchases in the later-game.

G

I think we should consider the empire size also affecting the military, after such a long discussion about buying units being superior to investing (but early on it isn't) it just seems like this itself could be the problem.