New Beta Version - January 3rd (1/3)

[IcyAngel]

@Gazebo

This discussion reminds me of the tourism influence bonuses; notably, there is a large population growth bonus to the originator of a trade route to a civ over which one is highly influential. But that population growth doesn't show in the trade route overlay, so one tends to forget about it when deciding where to send trade routes.

Could that be added in somehow?

 

[BiteInTheMark]

90 food compared to what is needed for growth, though? One number is irrelevant.

G

A hypotetic case with a city, that is working 20 specialits, which consume everyone 9 food (due to the actual change). = 180 food consumption for all specialits. Reduced by 50%, you save 90 food. Food you have to compensate by working tiles with normal citizen, if you didnt have picked freedom ideology.

I personally love the 1/2 food specialist tenet and some games get good mileage out of it. But in this case using a comparison of an 8 food farm doesn't seem appropriate. It's at least 8 base food + whatever your modifiers are, which by the time you are comparing yields to a 2nd tier ideology are significant.

Ok, ive made a mistake. If you dont have chosen freedom, you have to get the 90 food by working tiles, instead of saving this by the freedom tenet. Also, you dont have the freedom tenet to improve farms by +2.
Leading to the result, you have maybe grassland tiles with farms and 4 adjacent tiles, giving you only 6 (SIX) food. (Maybe 7, if you have the imperial social policy.)
Any growth multiplier cant be counted, cause you have to close the gap of 90 food, before your in food surplus (the moment, growth ist starting to count). How many modifers are in the game that give +FOOD?
Even if you get, lets say +20% food, and have imperialismn, that leads to 8.4 food per tile.
In this case, you need 11 more citizen, only working on plain food tiles to close the gap. If you count the nutritional needs of these extra citizens, you'll even need 14 citizens. (90 + 14*2 = 118 / 8,4 = 14)

In the end, you need 14 more population in your city, to get the same amount of food, as with the freedom tenet.
First problem: You need 14 more population in your city, and getting population is getting more and more difficult, where does all those people come from?
Second problem: Even if you have 14 more population, those produce only food, while in other case (freedom), those 14 could work mines / villages. Multiply 14 times the final hammer production of a mine, this is a hughe difference.
Third problem: More population leads to more unhappines, cause the unhappines is always bound to number of population.

Even if the +food multiplier is much higher, lets say +50%, this didnt change that much.
I accept, saying "gold generation in lategame is too much" is a generic statement. But I show you this numbers, and if you give me some values, how big late game cities and specialists use are in the new version, i can reconsider the numbers (with a big chance, they didnt change that much.)

 

[pineappledan]

I forgot to ask earlier, @Gazebo, but does this update include @Infixo’s .dll change to allow silencing historical events in lua?

 

[Gazebo]

A hypotetic case with a city, that is working 20 specialits, which consume everyone 9 food (due to the actual change). = 180 food consumption for all specialits. Reduced by 50%, you save 90 food. Food you have to compensate by working tiles with normal citizen, if you didnt have picked freedom ideology.



Ok, ive made a mistake. If you dont have chosen freedom, you have to get the 90 food by working tiles, instead of saving this by the freedom tenet. Also, you dont have the freedom tenet to improve farms by +2.
Leading to the result, you have maybe grassland tiles with farms and 4 adjacent tiles, giving you only 6 (SIX) food. (Maybe 7, if you have the imperial social policy.)
Any growth multiplier cant be counted, cause you have to close the gap of 90 food, before your in food surplus (the moment, growth ist starting to count). How many modifers are in the game that give +FOOD?
Even if you get, lets say +20% food, and have imperialismn, that leads to 8.4 food per tile.
In this case, you need 11 more citizen, only working on plain food tiles to close the gap. If you count the nutritional needs of these extra citizens, you'll even need 14 citizens. (90 + 14*2 = 118 / 8,4 = 14)

In the end, you need 14 more population in your city, to get the same amount of food, as with the freedom tenet.
First problem: You need 14 more population in your city, and getting population is getting more and more difficult, where does all those people come from?
Second problem: Even if you have 14 more population, those produce only food, while in other case (freedom), those 14 could work mines / villages. Multiply 14 times the final hammer production of a mine, this is a hughe difference.
Third problem: More population leads to more unhappines, cause the unhappines is always bound to number of population.

Even if the +food multiplier is much higher, lets say +50%, this didnt change that much.
I accept, saying "gold generation in lategame is too much" is a generic statement. But I show you this numbers, and if you give me some values, how big late game cities and specialists use are in the new version, i can reconsider the numbers (with a big chance, they didnt change that much.)

You’re avoiding my question: how much food does it cost to grow the city? 90 is a lot if the city needs 100 to grow. It’s a lot less if it needs 10000.

G

 

[DarkZero]

You’re avoiding my question: how much food does it cost to grow the city? 90 is a lot if the city needs 100 to grow. It’s a lot less if it needs 10000.

G

The point is not the food you save to the next growth, but the food tiles you don't have to work to sustain all those specialists, allowing you to work extra mines,great people tiles, quarries, horses, etc for example.
Having to work 90 food in tiles to sustain 20 specialists is much better than working 180 food in tiles...
I woyld argue its impossible to have a city so big it can work enough food tiles to support that many specialists...

 

[BiteInTheMark]

The 90 (118) food is necessary to get parity with the freedom following city. Who cares about the food you need to grow, if you need 10 or more pop anyway to feed all that specialists? You are the master of numbers in this game, tell ke how much food you need to get from a 30 pop city (my 28 pop city can work 20 specialists without going into dept with food) to a 44 pop city.
And then tell me if you think, giving that much food benefit to every freedom city is balanced.

 

[Gidoza]

The point is not the food you save to the next growth, but the food tiles you don't have to work to sustain all those specialists, allowing you to work extra mines,great people tiles, quarries, horses, etc for example.
Having to work 90 food in tiles to sustain 20 specialists is much better than working 180 food in tiles...
I woyld argue its impossible to have a city so big it can work enough food tiles to support that many specialists...

Agreed. And can you imagine if Resettlement in Order granted +14 population to all cities instead of +2? And even then, it would still be weaker than this Freedom tenet if it wasn't for specific buildings like Public Schools that give yields based on population.


But just to put things into perspective, here's a list of food yields coming as standards - I'm pulling this from the wiki, so please forgive me if some of the information is incorrect, as I don't remember it from memory.

3 Food - City Base Yield
1 Food - Granary
2 Food - Herbalist
3 Food - Aqueduct
6 Food - Water Wheel (based on 20 population, which is a low estimate by this point)
3 Food - Grocer
4 Food - Windmill (+2 from Grocers and Granaries)
5 Food - Agribusiness
5 Food - Hospital
3 Food - Monastery (let's just say that this or a Hydro Plant or something else is providing just ONE of said bonuses)

So, if we add these all together, we're sitting at a level of 35 Food; with Agribusiness, we put ourselves up to 40 Food, and here we're only talking about the base yields of buildings. This doesn't include Pantheons, Religion, Policies, bonuses to tiles, WLTKD, Happiness, and so on. I can't even mathematically take a guess at what those bonuses could be adding up to - but merely with the buildings themselves and enough percentage bonuses, a city can hold itself together pretty well.

I don't know about anyone else, but while it's fair for specialists to be a major thing of the later game - I wouldn't mind seeing more boring Plains triangular farms tiles being worked at all stages of the game. Resources are fun, but there's something about the boring tiles that's appealing in a very realistic way and that one would expect to be getting something from, which is more of a bonus than not...

 

[pineappledan]

One thing that I think would be cool is if agribusiness, instead of giving a flat 15% food, gave +2 food in city for every farm in 3 tile range, regardless of if they were worked or not. This would reflect the automation and collectivization of farms into... agribusinesses, so you have fewer people ‘working the land’. The number of farms hasn’t gone down with the rise of urbanization; the number of FARMERS, however, has plummeted

You would still need farms on the landscape then, you just wouldn’t necessarily have to work them

 

[Gazebo]

The 90 (118) food is necessary to get parity with the freedom following city. Who cares about the food you need to grow, if you need 10 or more pop anyway to feed all that specialists? You are the master of numbers in this game, tell ke how much food you need to get from a 30 pop city (my 28 pop city can work 20 specialists without going into dept with food) to a 44 pop city.
And then tell me if you think, giving that much food benefit to every freedom city is balanced.

Burden of proof, bud. You raise the problem, you provide the proof. Don’t put that on me.

 

[Workerspam]

I'd like to see some screen shots/numbers of a civ before and after adopting Civil Society (1/2 food for specialists). Because some of the numbers being thrown around (you'd need an extra 14 citizens working nothing but optimized farm to equal the food output of a 30 pop city that adopts Civil Society) seem out of whack.

My current game seems like it'll reach that stage and I'm a growth junkie (Mandirs every time!) so I should have something to share soon.

 

[Infixo]

I forgot to ask earlier, @Gazebo, but does this update include @Infixo’s .dll change to allow silencing historical events in lua?

It does.

 

[Funak]

How about just letting the player select what the puppet should focus on? I mean yeah that's less puppeting and more direct control, but it makes sense that you could give overall instructions to a puppet.
Feels like it would solve a few of these puppet-problems.

 

[CrabHelmet]

Forest tiles are more problematic than Freedom, IMO, if we're complaining about not working enough triangular farms. Farms outright suck compared to Forest tiles.

 

[BiteInTheMark]

Burden of proof, bud. You raise the problem, you provide the proof. Don’t put that on me.

Cant tell the exact value, cause I didnt know the exact formula, I may track this while playing, but it looks like its raising every time by a value around 6%-7%.
(checking the values from my various cities)
Its around 39229 food necessary to get from 30 pop to 44 pop.
If the game lasts 150 turns, you need to produce 261 food in EVERY city, to reach this. Meanwhile, the guy that picked freedom can still grow to and use its citizen for something useful.
My now 30 pop city in current game is able to feed 26 specialits, only working 4 tiles. 0.87 food surplus. Atomic age. Ok, i need to mention, Ive picked asceticismn and get 14 food by it (even description says, maximum is 10), but I didnt have one farm in my whole empire.

Forest tiles are more problematic than Freedom, IMO, if we're complaining about not working enough triangular farms. Farms outright suck compared to Forest tiles.

My lumbermills are improved by the industry policy, have workshop, university, zoo. 3 Food, 6 production, 1 science, 2 gold, 1 tourismn. Still sometimes specialists and (for some curious reason) some coastal tiles with 4 food, 2 production, 2 gold are prefered.

 

[MorphBer]

Playing 1st game on the new Version as Germany, only in classical Era but I have yet to buy a unit and I invested in every Monument/Shrine in my 5 City empire. Before Markets I was getting into negative gppt (like -7) but now I am kind of swiming in money.

 

[Grabbl]

How about shifting some flat yields on buildings to bonus yields for improvements and/or resources? Like that, you would still get the food increase, but you would need to work those tiles at least.

 

[Gazebo]

How about shifting some flat yields on buildings to bonus yields for improvements and/or resources? Like that, you would still get the food increase, but you would need to work those tiles at least.

Massive overhead to recalc every turn.

G

 

[Gidoza]

How about shifting some flat yields on buildings to bonus yields for improvements and/or resources? Like that, you would still get the food increase, but you would need to work those tiles at least.

I like. The Hospital is a good example - more food produced because less farmers are being run over by automated farm equipment.

Massive overhead to recalc every turn.

I don't understand what this statement means?

 

[Gazebo]

I like. The Hospital is a good example - more food produced because less farmers are being run over by automated farm equipment.



I don't understand what this statement means?

Flat yields are set and static - yields that change based on whether or not you are working a tile require recalculation throughout the yield stack - the more of these there are, the longer turn times become.

G

 

[Gidoza]

Flat yields are set and static - yields that change based on whether or not you are working a tile require recalculation throughout the yield stack - the more of these there are, the longer turn times become.

G

Ah, I understand. Or I think I do. Do you mean that the recalculation occurs only if the tile being worked is being modified by some other sources (whether a building or a technology), or is there a "recalculation" occurring for working a tile at all?