New Beta Version - January 3rd (1/3)

[BiteInTheMark]

i'm not sold on the freedom food thing.

My thing is, how much does growth actually help you at that point in the game? So I got 4 more pop in my capital over a large amount of turns compared to someone who didn't take the tenant. That growth doesn't translate into THAT many yields...especially compared to a tenant that can get you an immediately boost to yields and continues generating through all of those turns I'm having to grow.

Honestly I think the much stronger freedom tenant is the one that turns the unhappiness of 6 specialists per city into happiness. That is a big boost in happiness in many of my games.

But even so, I don't think freedom is necessary OP. Every ideology has some really strong tenants. Orders 2 free techs is a HUGE amount of science!

Imagine, you need 60-90 less food, to operate your city. Do you have tiles with only farms, like farm cluster to get that food? Imagine you could replace all that farms with villages or mines, great people improvements.
After pressing that button, your free to move lot of your worker to specialist slots, tiles with no food but other good stuff. And still grow like you have done before. I would call that an immidiatly result.

 

[Workerspam]

Isnt simply picking the worst ratio in your calculation to argue a bit subjective? If my city is working automaticly, they all reach a point, having 30 food surplus. If i had picked civil service, I would safe 57 food, effectivly tripling the growth of the city.
In such a city, if I work all specialists (23, 2 guilds), I have a lack of 14 food. 69 safed food from civil service would give me a growth of 55. Instead of a starvation. Did you reconsider such things?

Considering I frequently hit 300 growth and have hit over 600 growth in my capital in the past, stopping at 250 struck me as a reasonable upper limit.

Each of our experiences with Civil Service are subjective. You appear to take it when you have low or negative growth, where it dramatically improves your ability to make use of your specialists, to the point where you question if it's overpowered. I tend to take it when my growth is already high; I can now stop micromanaging my specialists in most cities and still grow at a fast rate.

Same tenet, two subjective experiences.

 

[Stalker0]

Imagine, you need 60-90 less food, to operate your city. Do you have tiles with only farms, like farm cluster to get that food? Imagine you could replace all that farms with villages or mines, great people improvements.
After pressing that button, your free to move lot of your worker to specialist slots, tiles with no food but other good stuff. And still grow like you have done before. I would call that an immidiatly result.

Thing is by this point in the game I usually can work all of my specialist slots in my good cities. So I can convert some farms sure...but into what? A few villages are nice, but I can only get so many due to their placement restrictions.

Now don't get me wrong, the growth is nice...I just don't think its the end all be all of bonuses.

 

[ashendashin]

Imagine, you need 60-90 less food, to operate your city. Do you have tiles with only farms, like farm cluster to get that food? Imagine you could replace all that farms with villages or mines, great people improvements.
After pressing that button, your free to move lot of your worker to specialist slots, tiles with no food but other good stuff. And still grow like you have done before. I would call that an immidiatly result.

Please tell me you haven't considered going Freedom as Germany just for some food. There's nothing faster than lategame Germany getting tens of thousands of gold in a few turns from Imperialisms Civilizing Mission* combined with the Autocracy buffs.

 

[tu_79]

Please tell me you haven't considered going Freedom as Germany just for some food. There's nothing faster than lategame/Industrial Germany getting tens of thousands of gold in a few turns from Imperialisms Civilizing Mission* combined with the Autocracy buffs.

No, he doesn't want more food or growth. He is complaining that with this tenet, most your city workers are going to be specialists. Since specialists produce significantly more yields, plus some extra great people, this is actually a big difference. That you get to grow a bit faster and maybe have 2 or 3 more population before the end game is not that relevant for him. It adds, of course.

 

[ashendashin]

No, he doesn't want more food or growth. He is complaining that with this tenet, most your city workers are going to be specialists. Since specialists produce significantly more yields, plus some extra great people, this is actually a big difference. That you get to grow a bit faster and maybe have 2 or 3 more population before the end game is not that relevant for him. It adds, of course.

Still comes down to food/growth. It doesn't matter for Germany by that point. All you need is production and gold to outpace everyone.

 

[Ziad]

I'm playing a new Marathon Celts game on Greatest Earth (Large map part of YAEMP) with 20 civs. None have taken Progress. A lot have taken Tradition though, even the traditionally Progress-leaning civs (Even Carthage!!!). The ones that took Authority are the normal martial civs.

I only mention this because just a few hours before I abandoned a game where all 12 civs went Tradition/Authority.

Maybe a random quirk in 2 consecutive games, but I think the buff to the baseline Tradition yields may have messed something up with Progress selection for non-martial civs.

 

[BiteInTheMark]

Please tell me you haven't considered going Freedom as Germany just for some food. There's nothing faster than lategame Germany getting tens of thousands of gold in a few turns from Imperialisms Civilizing Mission* combined with the Autocracy buffs.

Iam annoyed by picking every time freedom and want something else. I started isolated on a hilly and forested island, perfect for an industry game, completly ignoring any farm.
I went autocracy to get that +50% yields by CS and extra science, but yields from CS lategame suck hard. Iam allied with all CS, and this tenet give me 56 culture, 36 faith, 10 gold, and 4.5 food in every city. While i generate over 2.5k culture and gold per turn, and around 40-200 food surplus in every city. Effectivly gives mean increase of: culture = 2%, Gold = 0,4%, Faith = 8%, Food = 3%.

Either city states should generally give more yields, or this tenet should be doubled or tripled, so you can tell. But gazebo already said, CS shouldnt give good yields lategame, cause their votes are their strenght. But asking me, why this tenet or the UA of siam exists, if it has that low impact.

 

[IcyAngel]

No, he doesn't want more food or growth. He is complaining that with this tenet, most your city workers are going to be specialists. Since specialists produce significantly more yields, plus some extra great people, this is actually a big difference. That you get to grow a bit faster and maybe have 2 or 3 more population before the end game is not that relevant for him. It adds, of course.

The population growth is all there is to it; in my main cities, I can generally work most specialists and the high yields (production, gold, GPTI, etc.) tiles with or without Freedom. How do I do it? Without Freedom I basically grow very slowly or not at all, whereas with Freedom I keep growing at a reasonable pace. Meaning, the only benefit of that tenet is a bit of population growth, at a time when I least need it.

 

[Deadstarre]

But even so, I don't think freedom is necessary OP. Every ideology has some really strong tenants. Orders 2 free techs is a HUGE amount of science!

I pick Order almost every single game, and in the same vein as I and half the playerbase is split over scientist bulbing being a fun mechanic, I sort of wish this wasn't even a thing. Also, i'm probably a lot better at gaming the moment to choose it than AI

Without Freedom I basically grow very slowly or not at all, whereas with Freedom I keep growing at a reasonable pace.

This is mostly true, the exception probably being guild cities. If i ever picked a city to specialize for guilds, it simply cant work all the specialists I want to without going into starving

 

[Infixo]

It would be fun and refreshing if there was a 4th ideology to choose from.
Assuming that there are no hard codes in the code or at least they are limited to few specific places, all it would take would be some Lua and Art changes and ofc DB, a bunch of new policies.

 

[Gazebo]

It would be fun and refreshing if there was a 4th ideology to choose from.
Assuming that there are no hard codes in the code or at least they are limited to few specific places, all it would take would be some Lua and Art changes and ofc DB, a bunch of new policies.

Hahaha.

It’s so hardcoded that it’s actually not even funny.

G

 

[Infixo]

Hahaha.
It’s so hardcoded that it’s actually not even funny.
G

Damn you, Firaxis!

 

[Gazebo]

Damn you, Firaxis!

Sadly it’s not even hard coded for good reason. Just lazy devs.

 

[Deadstarre]

Forest tiles are more problematic than Freedom, IMO, if we're complaining about not working enough triangular farms. Farms outright suck compared to Forest tiles.

This is almost exclusively because of the Herbalist no? with herbalist they become 4 yield tiles you never even needed a worker for , triangular farms on grassland will be 3 yields until civil service IF theyre on the river (and thats a long way between techs from when herbalist came online). and its hard to justify forgoing lots of trade posts to boost farms beyond a triangle, especially if gold is becoming more valuable.

edit: It was pretty cool when herbalists starting boost plantations, maybe that could be more of it's new niche, although if so I would suggest giving lumbermills a food bonus via tech somewhere down the line, as forests currently don't end up being completely OP tiles, its just early on.

 

[Enginseer]

It would be fun and refreshing if there was a 4th ideology to choose from.
Assuming that there are no hard codes in the code or at least they are limited to few specific places, all it would take would be some Lua and Art changes and ofc DB, a bunch of new policies.

If only it was that easy...

I know for sure Anno Domini added the 4th ideology. I have no idea if it works for the AI however.

I've also remember that someone added a Theocracy ideology, but it was in Korean in the Workshop... I didn't bother to save the link however.

 

[BiteInTheMark]

This is almost exclusively because of the Herbalist no? with herbalist they become 4 yield tiles you never even needed a worker for, triangular farms on grassland will be 3 yields until civil service IF theyre on the river (and thats a long way between techs from when herbalist came online). and its hard to justify forgoing lots of trade posts to boost farms beyond a triangle, especially if gold is becoming more valuable.

edit: It was pretty cool when herbalists starting boost plantations, maybe that could be more of it's new niche, although if so I would suggest giving lumbermills a food bonus via tech somewhere down the line, as forests currently don't end up being completely OP tiles, its just early on.

Triangular farms on grasland are 4 yields. Also farms dont need any upkeep or block movement. But woods are good. Very good. Asking me why this buff to workshops was necessary

 

[Deadstarre]

Triangular farms on grassland are 4 yields.

yeah, i must still be asleep to thought they were 3 sorry. Im not sure my conclusion wasn't wrong still though.

so if herbs dropped food from forest, youd have a 3 yield tile that requires no worker investment. first farm needs worker obviously to reach the same 3 yields (just going to ignore flood plains for now, theyre their own thing that balances with desert tiles sucking). Forest has the option to be chopped for a great prod boost, which is a huge plus over farms, and of course once its chopped can just become farm, so it was still worthwhile to have it there.

And now we get to triangle farm (if the terrain allows it)- so they have 4 yields versus the forest which still has 3, which would actually be fine given 3 farms is a lot of worker turns, and I really needed my workers to be connecting my resources and cities not building farms. and once forest can have lumber mill, they will even at 4 yields a piece- but then university and workshop come to save the day and make their existence worthwhile again, versus the civil servant farm upgrade which is still coming... so yeah i dunno, i still think herbalist can lose food to forest *shrug*

would only need to consider moving lumber mills slightly sooner in tech tree (don't think its even needed but maybe) and again replacing the lost food from herbalist via a 1food update on tech to lumbermills somewhere down the distant future.

edit: right now, you build the herbalist (a worthwhile building on its own since it buff plantations and give flat food)- then all forests instantly become 4 yield tiles, versus you needing a bunch of workers to make triangle farms just to match the same 4 yields, only with less hammers cause farms are always tilted toward food. this is why farms suck vs forest

 

[Jarula]

There is a project on steam from this Russian dude I tried to get on here.

 

[BiteInTheMark]

yeah, i must still be asleep to thought they were 3 sorry. Im not sure my conclusion wasn't wrong still though.

so if herbs dropped food from forest, youd have a 3 yield tile that requires no worker investment. first farm needs worker obviously to reach the same 3 yields (just going to ignore flood plains for now, theyre their own thing that balances with desert tiles sucking). Forest has the option to be chopped for a great prod boost, which is a huge plus over farms, and of course ones its chopped can just become farm, so it was still worthwhile to have it there. And now we get to triangle farm - so they have 4 yields versus the forest which still has 3, which would actually be fine given 3 farms is a lot of worker turns, and I really needed my workers to be connecting my resources and cities not building farms. and once forest can have lumber mill, they will even at 4 yields a piece- but then university and workshop come to save the day and make their existence worthwhile, versus the civil servant farm upgrade which is still coming... so yeah i dunno, i still think herbalist can lose food to forest *shrug*

But this would make forests kinda weak, till you have reached lumbermill technology. It needs some time, but you already can get 4 yields or even 5 yield tiles by stacking farms, without the need for any technology.
I think herbalist is fine, instead remove the extra food and maintenance, and make it as prerequisite for the workshop instead the forge.