New Beta Version - June 9th (6/9)

[randomnub]

I don't notice any difference in Culture - first policy is still 45, I've got quite an OP start with 6 tundra resources on my capital and upgraded them swiftly with god of all stars (some of those were ambers so they turned into 2C tiles), it's now 1000AD, I'm not in medieval and I didn't even start Piety yet. It's still bad in this regard, way too slow. I think a very severe policy/tech cost increase for each city and for base costs was way too much, especially when nobody wanted any of that. As it is, everyone has 5 policies, I have 6 despite an insane start + pantheon + Colosseum's bonus culture + Inspiration.

I think first policy was 50 pre-hotfix?

I am stopping a Japan game right now (due to being a bit tired of randomizing warmongering civs tbh, next 'random' will be a little less random) at 158 standard, 960 AD, so similar to your situation: beelined dojos and a level 4-5army; cotton provided some culture, but no city states to bully (only started ask tribute few turns ago during a peace treat break); 6 cities+2 puppets (and 2 razed, I think they raise policy cost forever?), 0 libraries, no own religion, growth is terrible and production godlike: I'm in Renaissance with 7 policies, the other guys (and my polinesian vassal) on my continent are at 5-6. Tbh I can't complain on standard speed, maybe epic is a bit off. I wouldn't use the cosmetic dates as a balancing factor anyway.

The Japan UA is providing some meaningful yields btw, and samurais haven't been the bulk of my forces yet.

 

[Enrico Swagolo]

Not going to undo it all, especially since - in spite of your protests - I'm seeing much more balanced games now than I have seen in a long time. I'm still tweaking the numbers, and they may come back down a bit before release, but a reversion is not on the table. Case in point: last three winning games for AI were science victories in small 5-city empires. That's unheard of until these changes. Small civs should have a chance.

G

Well yeah, with Culture now being a much worse yield I can see why science UAs would flourish and ensure some scientific victories, but it's suspicious that small empires won three times in a row at Science. Your case in point is actually a proof of something bad going on. Doesn't that mean the small empires are superior? If that trend continues in your tests, then you've just flipped the situation around, making it so bigger empires are outright worse, which means nobody will want to make them as they require more actions per turn and micromanagement. With warmongering crippling you at science, culture and also requiring to beat even stronger enemies as of now, it'll not be good. At least small tradition empires don't require to govern many more cities, meaning they require less time, skill and effort. If they also bear better fruit, then who will want to take the more arduous path to get nothing in return but making it harder? Less clicks, more gain, no point in going wide. Even if small civs gave equal gain, then they'd actually be better due to taking less time to micromanage. As it is, no matter how you build your cities, they ultimately hurt your culture and science. I know the AI in the last three games I've had have been doing way worse than pre-patch.

I think first policy was 50 pre-hotfix?

I am stopping a Japan game right now (due to being a bit tired of randomizing warmongering civs tbh, next 'random' will be a little less random) at 158 standard, 960 AD, so similar to your situation: beelined dojos and a level 4-5army; cotton provided some culture, but no city states to bully (only started ask tribute few turns ago during a peace treat break); 6 cities+2 puppets (and 2 razed, I think they raise policy cost forever?), 0 libraries, no own religion, growth is terrible and production godlike: I'm in Renaissance with 7 policies, the other guys (and my polinesian vassal) on my continent are at 5-6. Tbh I can't complain on standard speed, maybe epic is a bit off. I wouldn't use the cosmetic dates as a balancing factor anyway.

The Japan UA is providing some meaningful yields btw, and samurais haven't been the bulk of my forces yet.

Nope, it was 45 on Epic. And dates aren't purely cosmetic, the closer to 2050 you get the higher maintenance cost becomes, and as everyone has worse time getting technologies on Epic, they get to +Gold techs like Currency later, meaning they get deep into -GPT, so they are permanently crippled with -Science, so they advance even slower.
Still, razed cities raise culture and technology cost forever? That should be reported on github I think. It makes no sense for something you're not benefitting from to permanently cripple you by increasing your culture/science costs by a crazy14% each. 7 policies definitely is terrible for a civ that gets so much culture/science from everything and has a Dojo.

 

[randomnub]

I meant, say what turn you are at, not the date

Did this mod change the maintenance formula?

 

[Enrico Swagolo]

I meant, say what turn you are at, not the date

Did this mod change the maintenance formula?

Aye, it's based on current turns/max possible turns and amount of units from what I've seen. I think it's around 200 turns in my game, I forgot how many (dates are easier to remember).

 

[Wodhann]

And no, not doing model work. All units are 'themed' anyways (even generic ones), don't see the issue.

Honestly all you have to do is alpha out the feathers from the skin texture and remove them from the icon (this I can easily do). This simple touch would immediately make it more generic imo.

(If that part of the model is configured for tranparency alpha, that is)

 

[randomnub]

Eh, to each his own, 4500 hours in this game and I have no clue what turn is when 0, 1000, 2000 AD trigger for example. Also hate mayan calendar with all my heart.

http://civilization.wikia.com/wiki/Mathematics_of_Civilization_V

I was using those tables for quick maintenance reference btw, they're different here?

 

[randomnub]

Btw, if anything those first policies come too quick for the wonder requirement in Ancient/Classical to matter. 3 games in a row, one culture ruin OR a lucky cultural city state is enough to get first policy at level 15, second one at 25 even without culture yields. I cannot research stuff like Military Theory that fast. Deity AI can.

 

[randomnub]

Funny, scouts have just about become my favorite unit. I am addicted to getting their many promotions, and use them extrememly effectively in wars. You should try training them for this purpose.

I was biased due to playing on standard size continents a lot, now randomized a pangea and I can see how they really level up quick.

 

[Aldebaran1997]

Btw, if anything those first policies come too quick for the wonder requirement in Ancient/Classical to matter. 3 games in a row, one culture ruin OR a lucky cultural city state is enough to get first policy at level 15, second one at 25 even without culture yields. I cannot research stuff like Military Theory that fast. Deity AI can.

Welp, is building Wonder possible in Deity anyway? XD I always simply ignore all WW when I play Deity difficulty.

 

[CrazyG]

I wanted to post a few thoughts from my first half game in the beta. This was the 6/9 version, I didn't apply that update

-Every civ I knew had very high GPT balances. China was briefly at around -3 per turn, but never had a 0 balance that I saw (she had Authority, thus bonus yield gold)
-Early culture didn't seem that slow, granted I was on furs. However the 7th social policy took me forever to unlock, it was a 43 turn gap on standard speed
-Tradition can build the Parthenon and instantly theme it for a big boost of culture. Not saying its too strong, I can't say that after just 1 game, just wanted to point it out for others to try
-India's great prophet discount isn't as strong as it seems on paper. Don't get me wrong its an amazing boost, but your early game is still tough
-Several wonders are now blocked by science much more than culture. Specifically Petra, Mausoleum, Artemis, and Hanging Gardens. The first three seem extremely difficult to build on higher difficulties

 

[CrazyG]

Welp, is building Wonder possible in Deity anyway? XD I always simply ignore all WW when I play Deity difficulty.

Ignoring wonders is probably the better strategy generally speaking, buts its very possible. If you start is really strong (or your civ has extremely early bonuses) you can usually grab stonehenge, then work tradition's engineer and get a great engineer born in time to get Mausoleum of Hali, which is a really powerful start. At least it worked before this beta

 

[vyyt]

Not going to undo it all, especially since - in spite of your protests - I'm seeing much more balanced games now than I have seen in a long time. I'm still tweaking the numbers, and they may come back down a bit before release, but a reversion is not on the table.

I think what Enrico is reporting, could be related to speed. I haven't had a chance to try the new beta (and won't have for a while), but in my pre-beta epic/emperor/large games, the first few policies go quickly/ok-ish-quickly and then once I have 3-4 cities and 3-4 policies, there is a big temporary slowdown increasing the (initial) policy cost to something like 70 turns. Then once I get more sources of culture, the policy acquisition speed gets normal again. Mind you I am editing the files and adding 1 gold and 1 culture to the city tile. I can imagine that on standard this period may be shorter (even relatively), as you probably research the theaters more quickly?

Not going to judge before I try it out, but as a culture/sopol hoarder enjoying large empires, I am a bit worried about the changes.

 

[bef1993]

Noticed a minor bug, when I have air units stationed in Nuclear Submarines or Carriers, and they die, the number doesn't update. The number only updates if i move a new air unit to the carrier/sub.

 

[Zanteogo]

Is it just me or is the AI way more war trigger happy now? Perhaps just bad luck on my part.

 

[Gazebo]

Aye, it's based on current turns/max possible turns and amount of units from what I've seen. I think it's around 200 turns in my game, I forgot how many (dates are easier to remember).

That formula is original to the game. It is not my number. Also maintenance is lower in CBO than vanilla, actually.

I wanted to post a few thoughts from my first half game in the beta. This was the 6/9 version, I didn't apply that update

-Every civ I knew had very high GPT balances. China was briefly at around -3 per turn, but never had a 0 balance that I saw (she had Authority, thus bonus yield gold)
-Early culture didn't seem that slow, granted I was on furs. However the 7th social policy took me forever to unlock, it was a 43 turn gap on standard speed
-Tradition can build the Parthenon and instantly theme it for a big boost of culture. Not saying its too strong, I can't say that after just 1 game, just wanted to point it out for others to try
-India's great prophet discount isn't as strong as it seems on paper. Don't get me wrong its an amazing boost, but your early game is still tough
-Several wonders are now blocked by science much more than culture. Specifically Petra, Mausoleum, Artemis, and Hanging Gardens. The first three seem extremely difficult to build on higher difficulties

Sounds good overall. I may need to bump policy requirements for classical+ wonders by 1.

G

 

[Txurce]

Tradition can build the Parthenon and instantly theme it for a big boost of culture. Not saying its too strong, I can't say that after just 1 game, just wanted to point it out for others to try

-Several wonders are now blocked by science much more than culture. Specifically Petra, Mausoleum, Artemis, and Hanging Gardens. The first three seem extremely difficult to build on higher difficulties

FWIW, I am 2-for-2 on Halicarnassus, playing Emperor. One game I got Artemis as well. This was with Venice.

 

[Aldebaran1997]

Is it just me or is the AI way more war trigger happy now? Perhaps just bad luck on my part.

Hah, my beloved Deity Montezuma declared war on me at turn 22 then killed my pathfinder to choose his pantheon. What a smart guy.
Anyway, I felt AI becomes more and more clever. Maybe your weak pity armies (in their view) is one of reasons why.

 

[Zanteogo]

Hah, my beloved Deity Montezuma declared war on me at turn 22 then killed my pathfinder to choose his pantheon. What a smart guy.
Anyway, I felt AI becomes more and more clever. Maybe your weak pity armies (in their view) is one of reasons why.

I expect that, but I notice they have been attacking when they have zero chance of actually winning.

 

[randomnub]

Sounds good overall. I may need to bump policy requirements for classical+ wonders by 1.

Do you mind bumping to 3 those in Ancient Eras that require 3 techs to unlock as well? So all of them except Stonehenge (1) and Statue of Zeus (2), this way we'd end with pre-patch requirements for Pyramids (3) and lowered for the other three (Artemis, Hali, Petra were 4, now 2).

FWIW, I am 2-for-2 on Halicarnassus, playing Emperor. One game I got Artemis as well. This was with Venice.

Good ole Venice is the only time I got pre-patch Alhambra on Deity, Enrico is a known troll

 

[theMisterRud]

Mmm, are there any requirements for the Empire State Building ? I seam to not be able to build it