no bug, Morocco lost his allies, he just threw crazy amounts of influence and reclaimed them
New Beta Version - March 2nd (3-2)
- Thread starter Gazebo
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no bug, Morocco lost his allies, he just threw crazy amounts of influence and reclaimed them
I know this topic comes up a lot, but AI pays a lot for strategic resources on this patch, as high as 11 for a horse. They also pay 4 gold for an embassy. They give me an embassy for only 1.
As of turn 100 I'm pulling 112 gold from trade deals with the AI. For comparison my 6 cities generate less than 30 total. That's been enough gold to ally every CS I met.
As of turn 100 I'm pulling 112 gold from trade deals with the AI. For comparison my 6 cities generate less than 30 total. That's been enough gold to ally every CS I met.
youngsteve
Prince
That is true & their deals to player at times seem very high. There is though a bit of an imbalance between levels of the game regarding gold. On highest levels the AI is helped by being given sufficient levels of gold to help them, whilst on lower levels this is less apparent & can struggle with gold. This has the effect of making it more difficult gaining gold through deals with the AI on lower levels like Warlord/Prince, compared to higher levels such as Immortal/Deity. Surely, it should be the other way around, & be easier to get gold on lower levels from AI.
Yeah I consider the embassy thing basically a bug
As for strategic, a lot of times the AI will pay 4-5 GPT, and that is reasonable to me, especially if its a neighbor (as I am literally handing him the tools of my destruction). But I agree that on occasion some AIs will offer crazy high prices for strategics and its like "how can I say no?"
I think it is too separate issues too with trade deals.
The more the AI like you the bigger a range it is will to accept. So it values embassies at 2gpt but will give you up to -75 on trade deals so it accepts 4gpt and 1gpt back. I don't think there is any good reason for the AI to do this, they should just only accept things for what they value them at, there is no need for a range. It makes selling resources one at a time best too which is unfortunate. (you an also tell if they secretly hate you doing this which is a bit gamey)
Then there is an issue that the AI just can't tell what a resource is worth. And it is so subjective, iron/horse sometimes is worth quite a bit but the AI will just take all of it leaving the player swimming in gold. Like CrazyG said you have way more gold from AIs than your own cities!
This has a knock on effect that makes all gold generating buildings like markets awful and buying things the default rather than sometimes. Rush buying every building and spaming emissaries into every nearby CS is a bit too easy.
There is an issue that it scales differently on different difficulties but taking all the AI's money on prince is probably still an issue, you might get less but it will hurt them more.
The more the AI like you the bigger a range it is will to accept. So it values embassies at 2gpt but will give you up to -75 on trade deals so it accepts 4gpt and 1gpt back. I don't think there is any good reason for the AI to do this, they should just only accept things for what they value them at, there is no need for a range. It makes selling resources one at a time best too which is unfortunate. (you an also tell if they secretly hate you doing this which is a bit gamey)
Then there is an issue that the AI just can't tell what a resource is worth. And it is so subjective, iron/horse sometimes is worth quite a bit but the AI will just take all of it leaving the player swimming in gold. Like CrazyG said you have way more gold from AIs than your own cities!
This has a knock on effect that makes all gold generating buildings like markets awful and buying things the default rather than sometimes. Rush buying every building and spaming emissaries into every nearby CS is a bit too easy.
There is an issue that it scales differently on different difficulties but taking all the AI's money on prince is probably still an issue, you might get less but it will hurt them more.
youngsteve
Prince
I think the problem is that the game & mod were designed for mainly building units or putting money towards buildings, but the player will automatically buy them outright instead. You get the money from trade deals, but the problem I see is that untits cost the same on whatever level you play, meaning it is a lot easier to obtain say a worker which is 160g on Diety, than on lower levels due to the AI's income. I have no idea what funds the AI has on settler/chieften levels, though I expect iit is very minimal. Perhaps units should be costed depending on what level you play, so say a worker might be 100g on Settler, but increase to 170g on diety if going up 10g each level.
Always good to show examples, so here is a perfect example I what I was highlighting as far as the early game:
Spoiler :
So in this scenario I currently have 4 cities and 4 luxs (2 acquired, 2 bought from the AI....very expensively!!!). Notice that I am just 2 happiness below the global, very common to see on Immortal, I would bet good money that on Emperor I would be golden, so you can see how that tiny difference really does matter at this stage in the game.
Babylon has denounced and gone hostile, so clearly I need to raise an army to protect myself. But where to build the units? Every city I have except the capital has a -35% production penalty. Archers (not cbows) will take 5, 8, and....12 turns to build
So I'm going to switch my capital and two of my cities to unit production, and pray that I can secure that lapis with some growth cap to stem the tide.Now I do want to note that my mistake here was letting Braga grow to 6. I should know better, 5 is sometimes ok (especially for Porto, normally my 2nd city can usually do it especially with nice terrain), but I really should have capped Braga sooner. Again, growth = death.
So how did this play out?
Spoiler :
Babylon declared as we expected of course, hehe I think it was 1 turn later. I am pulling every unit I can towards the fight, including 2 spears that were sent to the east to kill a barb camp (this will be important).
So first, I get really really really lucky. My scout finds the barrier reef, giving me 2 happiness. This is literally night and day for me, increasing my production by 25% in my capital, and 35% in my satellites.
Then....I get unlucky. Without troops controlling that barb camp, a horseman hits my shore just north of the capital. He pops the TR, spawning a skirmisher. So now my forces are split as barbs in the middle hold off my troops to the north. Babylon also pillages a tea, spoiler my production monopoly, so another 10% prod lost.
Ultimately though I get walls in Porto (ignore that herbalist I was about to switch it to another unit), its too late, and Porto will fall. Its not the end of the world, but since I'm looking for a nice win to boost my ego after so many losses recently, I think I'll try again.
To clarify, this is not a perfect game by me. I made mistakes, and those mistakes got me killed. But I did want to show how sensitive happiness is in this stage in the game, and how 1-2 more or less happiness can really change how the game looks.
dailyminerals
Chieftain
- Joined
- May 16, 2018
- Messages
- 54
People always bring up how the AI can pay high $$ for resources based on how much they like you, and personally I think that's a good thing. For one, it makes the game just a little bit more dynamic, and it gives an incentive to actually remain friends, since when they don't like you, the trade deals they are willing to agree to are pretty awful. I think it's fine the way it is. I'd be more than a little hesitant about trying to code out the more dynamic parts of the game that actually give the player tools to solve problems. Having resources set at some static value just isn't interesting and makes relations with a civ less compelling. Civs are already carbon copies of each other, the scant few benefits diplomacy gives you is one of the only ways they can be differentiated from one another in a game.
I can agree with you to a point. I don't mind civs that have long standing friendships to give each other bonuses. I think part of the problem noted above is:
1) Its really early. Early bonuses can really skew the game, and so seeing such high numbers that early I think is a problem. Even adding 1 GPT because of "friendship" is a pretty big deal at that point, but adding 3-6 is just too high.
2) It isn't earned. So I agree with you that if I have trade back with my partner for a while, we have done the DoF, maybe gone to war together, denounced some enemies together, by all means bring on the Trade bonuses! But early on....I'm literally doing nothing. I make trades I need to make, and I'm still expanding when I want to expand no matter how many AIs tell me that my 2nd city is just way too many cities. So the bonus isn't earned, and therefore its not a reward for diplomatic play....its just really high yields.
Hinin
Agnostophile
A small question for a modmod : how does healing works for barbarian exactly ? We are using a plague that reduces healing by 10 on Friendly/Neutral/Hostile tiles, and also checked the "same tile heal change" column (thx pineappledan), but in the end barbarians keep ignoring the effects of the plague, as if the healing was automatic.
dailyminerals
Chieftain
- Joined
- May 16, 2018
- Messages
- 54
I think another problem here is that these "bonuses" are hugely skewed based on map size and more than anything else, game length. You say a 1GPT benefit is a big deal, and that might be true, but only under certain game settings. On a marathon speed, huge map game, it very quickly becomes a very small drop in the ocean. So maybe the solution is to examine how the trade deals could be evaluated based on game speed and map size.
I always post "Standard" speed numbers, and assume things should always be scaled on Game Speed. If they aren't, then I agree with you that is a problem
So in this game, my settler started one turn east. There's nothing there (remember I don't even have fish yet). By moving just one tile to the west I have immediate access to:
1) A 3
2) A 2
, 2
3) A 2
, 2
That gives me a rock solid start, and the snowball effect is very very real. My experience over time has taught me its all about yields now. When I settle cities I barely look at the 3rd ring, and I make sure the 1st ring gives me a solid start, otherwise the city will languish forever.
I still for the life of me do not understand the spy system. Washington has 3 techs for me to steal, why is my steal time so incredibly long? (this is the first spy from statecraft, so its the earliest spy you can have except for England)
Spoiler :
Gazebo has reworked this for next version.
I think the current version isn't dynamic, the AI are just terrible negotiators.
Real game example:
An AI who denounced me pays 6 gold for a horse (might pay 7 too, can't check since their GPT isn't high enough).
An AI I have friendship with pays 7.
An AI who I met three turns ago and the only diplomatic factor is 'Divergent social policies' pays 9.
All three of those civs already have spare horses by the way, which I could buy for 4, 3, or 5 gold. Even the civ who denounced me charges less for anything (embassy, luxury, or horse) than she'll pay me for the same thing. A 3-horse tile in my capital earns more gold than 7 markets (and it could potentially earn even more if the AI had more gold). This single tile is worth more than two copies of El Dorado, the highest gold natural wonder.
1 GPT is about as valuable on epic or marathon as on standard. Things cost more but there are more turns so you collect GPT more often. Only event-based bonus yields need to have scaled values.
Ex: if you grow a pop every 10 turns on standard, you'll grow about every 15 turns on epic, so bonuses for growing should be multiplied by 1.5.
If a market gives 3 gold per turn on standard, it also gives 3 gold on epic. No need to change the market's output.
Well this is 1pgt per resource. So if I sell 3 lux 5 iron and 5 horse it is an extra 13 a turn. And sometimes it will be 2gpt extra and sometimes you will have a lot more spare resources so it snowballs to an extra 40gpt for nothing really.
Skidizzle
Gameshow Host
- Joined
- Sep 20, 2010
- Messages
- 118
Something needs to change with how revolts are handled.
I'm finishing up my game on this version before jumping to the new one.
I have my wife set up random settings for my games, but I pick difficulty. Played an standard, immortal, 40 player, large map, continents game as England.
Crazy crowded. Went authority, statecraft, imperialism, autocracy. Took every city, razed nothing. Currently have 52 puppets, 4 normal cities.
The sitting between 25-30% happiness and the revolts are very formulaic. A group of 10-15 land units always spawn near the capitol. Never anywhere else. And when a city revolts it's always just one city with no military to defend it.
I'd suggest having more than one city break off and assimilating the units stationed around it. Maybe made the pop up less of a turn count down and more of a percent chance next turn.
The UI tells me which city and when. That makes it way to easy to crush opposition.
I'm finishing up my game on this version before jumping to the new one.
I have my wife set up random settings for my games, but I pick difficulty. Played an standard, immortal, 40 player, large map, continents game as England.
Crazy crowded. Went authority, statecraft, imperialism, autocracy. Took every city, razed nothing. Currently have 52 puppets, 4 normal cities.
The sitting between 25-30% happiness and the revolts are very formulaic. A group of 10-15 land units always spawn near the capitol. Never anywhere else. And when a city revolts it's always just one city with no military to defend it.
I'd suggest having more than one city break off and assimilating the units stationed around it. Maybe made the pop up less of a turn count down and more of a percent chance next turn.
The UI tells me which city and when. That makes it way to easy to crush opposition.
Yerltvachovicic
Chieftain
Can I get an answer why capturing enemy great people on water ends up destroying them, when it clearly works on land?
Also in my current game I'm building Tower of Buddhist Incense in my THIRD city (supposedly National Wonder).
Also in my current game I'm building Tower of Buddhist Incense in my THIRD city (supposedly National Wonder).
vyyt
Deity
Looks like you are playing with some extra mods. In VP great people get killed upon capture regardless of land/water. And I don't think there's anything like a Tower of Buddhist Incense national wonder in VP. So you are probably experiencing a mod conflict.
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