New Beta Version - March 2nd (3-2)

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I've mentioned before how money can sometimes be a real struggle when your sanctioned. Here is a good example.

I've got almost all of my cities working all merchants and running wealth processes, and I'm barely making ends meat (and note my military supply isn't even all that high at the moment). I have to hope to get to stock exchanges at some point here, but I've you can see I'm a little busy at the moment.
7 cities are one turn from growing and it appears you have progress, so in your era I think that's several hundred gold just waiting to be accessed, right?

This is the same game you settled three colonies in. If you had to lock growth in 7 cities then I think France taking away your cities might be doing you a favor.
 
If you had to lock growth in 7 cities then I think France taking away your cities might be doing you a favor.

I think it proves the point though, just another reason why settling those colonies were bad ideas.
 
On the bright side, you're way more technologically advanced than France, it seems.
 
I think it proves the point though, just another reason why settling those colonies were bad ideas.
Sure but I don't think that means much about colonies in general, because India is easily a bottom 5 choice for planting pioneers on islands. You can't even send a missionary, happiness problems are expected, farms can't be built on water, and your UU is land based.

Also I think you took rationalism based on the horses giving science? I would want imperialism if I plant far away colonies, or industry if playing more defensively.
 
Also I think you took rationalism based on the horses giving science? I would want imperialism if I plant far away colonies, or industry if playing more defensively.

I took Rationalism because at the time I was top in tech, I have a large numbers of strategic resource piles and my goal was to play to a defensive SV, utilizing superior military units. But in hindsight industry might have been better considering my constant gold problems this game (and ultimately I have had to go on the offensive against Morocco who is starting to do what Morocco does and get science and culture crazy). Realistically imperalism wasn't going to do much for me this game, I got way more science with rationalism (my colonies have the observatory + lots of strategic resources), my monopoly was nothing special, I had no puppets, and I had no navy. The water bonus on Imperalism is nice but it doesn't turn an island into a powerhouse unless you are settling very small islands with lots of water....and those are a nightmare and a half to defend.

As for India as a bottom 5 civ to secondary expand... I mean India is nothing special but I wouldn't say bottom tier. Your colony will grow rapidly with his UA, my religion was so powerful my colonies converted in a few turns, and I had good religious buildings to further push them, also had cooperation for even more yields. His UB is still more yields than a civ with no UB would get on their colonies.

Happiness wise, frankly I've just gotten used to having happiness problem playing wide on this version, generally until landmarks. I was actually surprised how little happiness issue I had this game compared to normal. But India didn't really hurt me there imo.

I mean they are no Morocco, whose every city is culture incarnate, but I would say they are perfectly fine and average to do some expansion....assuming expansion is worth doing.
 
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I took Rationalism because at the time I was top in tech, I have a large numbers of strategic resource piles and my goal was to play to a defensive SV, utilizing superior military units. But in hindsight industry might have been better considering my constant gold problems this game (and ultimately I have had to go on the offensive against Morocco who is starting to do what Morocco does and get science and culture crazy). Realistically imperalism wasn't going to do much for me this game, I got way more science with rationalism (my colonies have the observatory + lots of strategic resources), my monopoly was nothing special, I had no puppets, and I had no navy. The water bonus on Imperalism is nice but it doesn't turn an island into a powerhouse unless you are settling very small islands with lots of water....and those are a nightmare and a half to defend.
Sorry, my logic was backwards before.

Imperialism + those colonies would probably be okay
or
Rationalism + no colonies will probably be okay too

But you need to choose a path and stick to it. Rationalism + those colonies = problems. Unless they actually went positive in culture and science due to observatories, but either way I bet they soaked up a lot of gold.
 
Imperialism + those colonies would probably be okay

This is the line I'm challenging. I don't see how Imperalism would have made those colonies "okay" in this case, hehe unless you meant for Imperalist France, who I'm sure loved their new puppets ;)
 
This is the line I'm challenging. I don't see how Imperalism would have made those colonies "okay" in this case, hehe unless you meant for Imperalist France, who I'm sure loved their new puppets ;)
I see what you are saying.

"If they were okay in any situation, it involves imperialism" is probably more accurate. I do think colonies can work sometimes, but you need a navy which usually means imperialism for me.
 
So after playing numerous Progress Peaceful Wide type games, I've noticed that happiness tends to fall into pretty predictable patterns for me. Here are some notes (for Immortal play):

1) Expansion Restriction (3 cities): Unhappiness starts to kick in, affects satellites and can even get to the capital in some cases. 3 luxs are needed for ideal (50%) happiness. Communitas_79 provides 2 nearby luxs as a standard, +1 lux from AI trading can usually cover me. Aka its important to get those luxs up and running for continued expansion.

2) Expansion Push (4-7,8,9 cities): I feel like this is the phase where happiness is truly "doing its job". Generally I have to cap growth at 4 pop (sometimes 3 depends on circumstances) as I am expanding, and an ignorance of infrastructure will tilt my happiness into the 34% "pit". So I have to balance expansion with proper management. There is a lot of variance during this time period, as a nice CS quest to give you an ally, or a good yield pantheon can make tremendous difference (like the difference between happiness comfortable and being in full rebellion, it can be that swingy). For example, I have noticed that my happiness tends to be significantly higher with Renewal and Spirit of the Desert games, because both of them give nice base yields that don't require workers to activate.

3) The medieval build phase: So a consequence of an early focus on expansion is that you now have a LOT to do in Medieval. Your capital probably has wonders it wants to build, you still have lots of basic infrastructure to do, and now you need to get your military really ready, as Knights come online this is the time that many AIs like to be aggressive, and its very easy to just flat out die on Immortal if you are not prepared.

Its at this point I find the happiness penalties to military units can make or break you. Local happiness can be a problem during this stage, effectively saddling satellite cities with a -35 to -50% penalty to military production (aka don't bother) I often find it important to maintain growth caps on one key city so it can build military forces without local unhappiness. Also rush buying military units in the capital has become more common for me, you have to get your troop count up quickly....and you simply can't do that with hammers when your facing a -25% or higher penalty to production.

Part of the issue here as well as that you can be a bit lux reliant at this stage in the game, as your still behind on infrastructure. This means a war declaration performs double duty, as it can often strip away your luxs, which can literally cut your military production in half. Again the stress here is on speed, you must must must get your military in order as quickly as possible before those penalties really start to kick in.

4) The "Ping Pong" phase (Renaissance - Public Works): So having survived Medieval, I now generally have all of my core infrastructure built, and Global Happiness starts to solidify more. This begins the most annoying part of happiness for me, the ping pong phase. Almost every city I have other than the capital does the following:
  • Gains a Pop, suffers like 4-5 extra unhappiness.
  • Growth slows to a crawl, I focus on infrastructure to correct the unhappiness.
  • Growth returns to reasonable, city gains a pop, suffers like 4-5 unhappiness, etc
One day I really need to record how many turns a satellite actually spends in unhappiness vs happiness, I bet good money the city is unhappy a good majority of the time.

5) The Public Works phase (Public Works - Landmarks)

Once you get public works, you get a new lever against unhappiness. So the -15% to unhappiness I find pretty worthless, it lowers your unhappiness by a good amount....until you grow and the ping pong kicks in again. But the +1 happiness remains rock solid and ever useful. Its what I'm "actually buying" with the public works.

6) The "No Big Deal" phase (Landmarks - Game End)

So depending on the amount of Landmarks and Public Works you have built (CS quests can also be a factor here) an interesting thing happens. Its quite possible for your cities happiness to become equal to its population. Because unhappiness (other than urbanization) can never go beyond your population, it is possible to enter "Perma Happiness". Your cities all move into 50% unhappiness (aka max unhappiness countered by happiness equal to your population).

At this point, happiness is no longer a major factor in terms of city development and growth. Now happiness is really a function of war weariness combined with ideological pressure. In general though, I find unless I am going full war monger and just ignore war weariness completely, I don't normally find the happiness effects at this point in the game strong enough to bring down my Global Number. Normally its the supply drops for war weariness that give me more pause.


A Note on Difficulty
I have made this point before but I will reiterate, that I really do see a strong effect on difficulty when it comes to happiness. There is an "Anti-snowball" that occurs. Compared to Emperor, on Immortal, the AI is able to get enough bonuses quickly enough that the median yield numbers start to infect you with greater unhappiness. Its not a lot, but it can make the difference between keeping your civ at 50% vs dropping to 45% global with -1 local unhappiness in a city (which is a -35% reduction in growth and settler production). This means on Immortal I expand slower, and grow slower, than I did on Emperor. Less growth means less production = slower infrastructure = fewer yields = more unhappiness.

Its subtle but actually quite noticeable when you change difficulties. The last time i played Emperor, happiness was a "breeze" in comparison (and an Emperor player might feel the same if they dropped to King). Meanwhile on my Deity games I notice the effect even more strongly.

This note is to showcase that its perfectly reasonable to see two players at different difficulties with very different Happiness viewpoints. If an Emperor player popped up and said "Stalker I don't know what your talking about, I find happiness very reasonable", that would not surprise me at all. So that's part of the challenge of balancing it, its not a basic yield where we can all agree that it should be increased or decreased. Happiness is highly variable depending on lux availability, difficulty, CS quests (and access to early CS allies), and of course....AI performance.
 
Random question not worth making a new thread over:

I remember that the AI used to not take into account the strength of a civ's Defensive Pact ally when calculating when to declare war. Was this ever addressed?
 
Random question not worth making a new thread over:

I remember that the AI used to not take into account the strength of a civ's Defensive Pact ally when calculating when to declare war. Was this ever addressed?

Yes, I fixed this a long time ago.
 
Its at this point I find the happiness penalties to military units can make or break you. Local happiness can be a problem during this stage, effectively saddling satellite cities with a -35 to -50% penalty to military production (aka don't bother) I often find it important to maintain growth caps on one key city so it can build military forces without local unhappiness. Also rush buying military units in the capital has become more common for me, you have to get your troop count up quickly....and you simply can't do that with hammers when your facing a -25% or higher penalty to production.
I really dislike this feature of the happiness system. It feels extremely punishing for not locking growth.
 
A good example of a common trend I am seeing from the high level AI lately. Its one of the reasons I continued to question if pioneer game expansion is ever really worth it.



You'll also note the two blue spots south of this city, those were former cities of mine that France has already taken. Even though this is a reasonably defensive position, but without a navy I'm still getting clobbered. I've held off two other waves before but this one has finally broken through my land defenses and is now going for the killing blow. Because the AI is now so good at amphibious landings, you can't rely on a strong defense force necessarily anymore, as in this case as my g guns were removed through naval hits and/or amphibious lands.

The navy it takes to defend such a spot is a massive commitment. If that's what it takes to hold this spot....than I would just rather have never taken it.

The AI will almost always have more units. Larger navies win naval battles. The AI is now good enough at combat that authority AIs will throw hordes at you. I'd consider an isolated city like this to be almost certain to be overrun.

Even though only 1 naval melee ship can attack your city, you can't actually defend it with any ranged troops because multiple ranged ships can rain down fire and destroy those defenders. It's a trap city.
 
The AI will almost always have more units. Larger navies win naval battles. The AI is now good enough at combat that authority AIs will throw hordes at you. I'd consider an isolated city like this to be almost certain to be overrun.

Even though only 1 naval melee ship can attack your city, you can't actually defend it with any ranged troops because multiple ranged ships can rain down fire and destroy those defenders. It's a trap city.

I think we are in agreement. This is honestly a good piece of land as far as secondary expansion goes, I often won't find any single land piece as big as this one, and yet its still not enough to warrant the city (its just too hard to defend).
 
Standard Immortal on Communitas_79 as India. Surrender on Turn 381

Spoiler :

upload_2021-4-14_1-36-19.png



This was a real nail biter of a game. Hehe don't know what's up with me lately, I was winning on Immortal so much I was moving into Deity, and now I can't win an Immortal game to save my life!

So I had this start with an immediate Spirit of the Desert, and I was off to the races. Beautiful start, had some real great cities going early on. I went Fealty, Orthodoxy, and Cathedrals this game so I was power religion. I steamrolled over Moroccos and Siams religion, eventually taking Washington as well. By the end there were two religions in the world, one on each continent. With World Religion, I actually had 10 votes just from Religion alone!

As we moved into Medieval, Siam of course had to have a go at me with their elephants. But....he never, ever...ever stopped! Siam was an absolute rabid dog this game, I think our longest peace was 15 turns, he just could not help himself. The man also had a magic vault that just conjured Elephants and field guns out of thin air. I killed no less than 20 field guns on a single patch of desert that Siam loved to send them to, and they just kept on coming.

Meanwhile Morocco was the biggest d*** this game. Every TR that was on land and not to him he sniped. He even used my open borders to move units onto my territory and pillage my TRs there! Yet every time I ramped up to punish him, good old Siam came back to have another go.

Meanwhile France was almost as rabid as Siam, warring constantly with me to take my island colonies (as I noted in a previous post, my colonies just weren't defendable this game, and I think were mistakes to make). Late game I went Rationalism to maintain my tech lead and go an SV, but unfortunately that meant I was flat broke. I was so strapped for cash that I had to have half of my cities or more on wealth just to stay a float, which made it very difficult to leverage my tech advantage into a military one. Considering that I felt I was probably going to have to war with Morocco to end the game, I really should have considered Industry + Autocracy.

I did take Autocracy and with my upgraded war engine started to make some strides, finally pushing Siam back to a comfortable position. I finally had a good chance to go after Morocco, who was 5 votes from hegemony with the vote in 10 turns. I started to push Morocco (as did Washington)....and then god bless it here comes Siam and France again! I push everyone back but I have no wind in my sails as my gold is completely spent, and Morocco is almost about to take my northern city when he asks for peace. I have to accept it, I'm too spent.

And so as I'm kicking the crap out of Siam's field guns over and over and over and over again, the hegemony comes around, but thankfully Morocco doesn't get it. Alright, game is back on! So I am doing alright against Siam, when France finally brings his full navy to my northern doorstep. Siam and France are too powerful near the sea, and my forces are exhausted from endless conflict and little gold to rebuy and upgrade old units. Mumbai is about to fall, and with it my entire northern coast is exposed. Meanwhile Morocco and Siam have started to outtech me, and I'm still running negative gold. So it was time to throw in the towel.

My notes

1) One kudos to the AI, it was very good this game about hitting in different spots. The AI would push on one area, but then shift and focus on another, which caught me off guard.

2) Sacred Sites is absolute garbage. The tourism barely moves the needle, and considering all the yields I'm giving up, even going for a CV I don't think its very good.

3) Where was my money this game? I am used to hurting in Industrial, but even beyond that I was incredibly poor. I don't really understand what happened there, its not like I built way more buildings than normal or had a massive army (honestly towards the end it was pretty small), but I just had no gold this game. and heck I had cathedrals!

4) You want to talk commitment. Morocco was decolonized and yet still managed to retake 6 out of the 8 CS allies. He had 7 (yes 7 I counted) Great Diplomats in his capital just hanging out, that's how overflowing with Influence he was.

5) Chainat (Siam city northwest of my capital) is an interesting case study. When Siam first founded it, it was a crap dirtball, with an iron, fish, and that camp. Fast forward a bit, he citadel snipes me, gains aluminum, coal, and more iron, and suddenly has a very strong northern line against my capital. Don't let AIs settle near you, even if they start dinky. One day you will regret it.
 
Morocco was decolonized and yet still managed to retake 6 out of the 8 CS allies. He had 7 (yes 7 I counted) Great Diplomats in his capital just hanging out, that's how overflowing with Influence he was.
There seems to be a bug that makes a decolonized civ stay allied with CS until someone else gains influence. If you have proof, please post on Github.

I allied with every CS in the game after 3 decolonizations anyway, so an Immortal AI could definitely do that.
 
Standard Immortal on Communitas_79 as India. Surrender on Turn 381


Totally unrelated but why the hell you seem to get very realistic and pretty looking maps with Communitas while every time I give a chance to that script I end disappointed? :hmm: I play with standard settings and size.

In particular I envy that desert, while I get these sort of maps:

Spoiler :

cpmap3.png



I get that there's no valid rapresentation of cold deserts, but more often than not the map looks like some random patchwork; also, that was a temperate/arid zone (all those floodplains), that tundra is really out of place. If that's supposed to be a cold desert then, the oasi is missplaced.

Spoiler :

cpmap.png



About patchworks, here we have grassland, floodplains, plains, desert, tundra and snow all adjacent in a 5 tiles range. Forests are quite random as well. I don't know how to dress my civilians anymore.

Spoiler :

cpmap2.png



Gameplay wise, I think good ole pangea and continents are better for the AI as well, here poor Askia didn't grow past size 2 for 50 turns. Not that there was any prime expansion spot to rush for.
 
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