New Beta Version - October 10th (10/10)

[BiteInTheMark]

Ok, I was a bit pissed cause I had to abandon my game with version 9-25 cause of happiness issue, and thought I try it again, this time with more focus on happiness buildings....
And I was checking, what was going wrong with my happiness, and detected something...... suspicious...

Tell you what: if anyone finds a bug in the happiness code, they get to be a Great Person in the game. Everyone wins: I get a debugger, you get to live in infamy.

Gazebo... prepare to integrate a new Great Person to the game...
Edit:

So.... whats happening? Why does the numbers didnt fit with any way to calculate?

 

[Gazebo]

Ok, I was a bit pissed cause I had to abandon my game with version 9-25 cause of happiness issue, and thought I try it again, this time with more focus on happiness buildings....
And I was checking, what was going wrong with my happiness, and detected something...... suspicious...

Gazebo... prepare to integrate a new Great Person to the game...
Edit:

So.... whats happening? Why does the numbers didnt fit with any way to calculate?

That’s because Food and Production are averaged. F+H / 2.

G

 

[gwennog]

If you average Food and Hammer, calculation is correct (546/2 = 273) and 273/37 = 7.378
but I'm not sure it's the right calculation, it just seems logical.

Too late

 

[BiteInTheMark]

That’s because Food and Production are averaged. F+H / 2.

G

Damn you, ok, I should have seen it. But, it is still a bit strange, cause not very intuitive.
The hammer part is taken with additional modifiers, but the food part take only pure food into account.
I was really wondering why my capitol with 440 excess food has still 3 unhappiness by distress..... This makes growth modificator completly useless for fighting needs.

Edit:
Ok, as said, its the previous version. But I dont think the happiness curve or treatment has changed that much (still dont know what "Tweaked values slightly to increase 'curve' and potency of unhappiness late-game" means).
I researched the last tech of modern era and reached atomic era. I checked it, and Iam now 1 tech in advantage to the median.
My happiness dumped from +7 to -22 in one turn. Alone distress unhappines went from 20 to 30, in a 6-city-Empire. This is definitly NO rounding error.
Do you really want to say its ok, a fully improved tall nation with perfect infrastructure, lot of GPTI, improved specialists and most need reduction buildings have to face happiness dumps of 30? Cause of one more tech than the median?
Its ok if bad planned and overexpanded empires are hit by unhappiness. But this isnt the case. I can place here the savegame and everyone can check, if I have done something terrible wrong, justifying this amount of unhappiness...

Edit2:
How directly is the final needs modifier calculated?
I had +112% global average need modifier in distress in one of my cites. Then build a military academy (-50% basic needs modifier) and the new value is +101%. Effectivly decreased my unhappiness from distress from 6 to 5. After it rised from 4 to 6 thanks to the tech-median modifier by one extra tech.

 

[chicorbeef]

Ok, as said, its the previous version. But I dont think the happiness curve or treatment has changed that much (still dont know what "Tweaked values slightly to increase 'curve' and potency of unhappiness late-game" means).
I researched the last tech of modern era and reached atomic era. I checked it, and Iam now 1 tech in advantage to the median.
My happiness dumped from +7 to -22 in one turn. Alone distress unhappines went from 20 to 30, in a 6-city-Empire. This is definitly NO rounding error.

Actually the newest happiness change would solve your problem. Cities remain at a static median until they grow now, so unless all your cities grow on the same turn, a happiness swing due to needs won't happen.

 

[BiteInTheMark]

Actually the newest happiness change would solve your problem. Cities remain at a static median until they grow now, so unless all your cities grow on the same turn, a happiness swing due to needs won't happen.

It solves the problem having a big happiness jump.... ok.
But it didnt solve the SOURCE of the problem. Why Iam in -20 happiness even my empire is well improved?
One turn later, I switched everything to "Avoid-Growth", use all my specialists and now Iam at -39 happiness. Distress rised from 20 to 30 unhappiness, and with avoid growth it have went to 43. Additionally to the 11 extra unhappiness by urbanization.
My only hope is to spread my science to different technologies and hope the median in tech will rise before my empire collapse.
Indiacollapses.Civ5Save

 

[Gazebo]

Damn you, ok, I should have seen it. But, it is still a bit strange, cause not very intuitive.
The hammer part is taken with additional modifiers, but the food part take only pure food into account.
I was really wondering why my capitol with 440 excess food has still 3 unhappiness by distress..... This makes growth modificator completly useless for fighting needs.

Edit:
Ok, as said, its the previous version. But I dont think the happiness curve or treatment has changed that much (still dont know what "Tweaked values slightly to increase 'curve' and potency of unhappiness late-game" means).
I researched the last tech of modern era and reached atomic era. I checked it, and Iam now 1 tech in advantage to the median.
My happiness dumped from +7 to -22 in one turn. Alone distress unhappines went from 20 to 30, in a 6-city-Empire. This is definitly NO rounding error.
Do you really want to say its ok, a fully improved tall nation with perfect infrastructure, lot of GPTI, improved specialists and most need reduction buildings have to face happiness dumps of 30? Cause of one more tech than the median?
Its ok if bad planned and overexpanded empires are hit by unhappiness. But this isnt the case. I can place here the savegame and everyone can check, if I have done something terrible wrong, justifying this amount of unhappiness...

Edit2:
How directly is the final needs modifier calculated?
I had +112% global average need modifier in distress in one of my cites. Then build a military academy (-50% basic needs modifier) and the new value is +101%. Effectivly decreased my unhappiness from distress from 6 to 5. After it rised from 4 to 6 thanks to the tech-median modifier by one extra tech.

It solves the problem having a big happiness jump.... ok.
But it didnt solve the SOURCE of the problem. Why Iam in -20 happiness even my empire is well improved?
One turn later, I switched everything to "Avoid-Growth", use all my specialists and now Iam at -39 happiness. Distress rised from 20 to 30 unhappiness, and with avoid growth it have went to 43. Additionally to the 11 extra unhappiness by urbanization.
My only hope is to spread my science to different technologies and hope the median in tech will rise before my empire collapse.

This thread is for discussing the latest version of the mod. If you aren’t playing the latest version please post in the correct thread for your version, otherwise things get confused.

Thanks,
G

 

[BiteInTheMark]

This thread is for discussing the latest version of the mod. If you aren’t playing the latest version please post in the correct thread for your version, otherwise things get confused.

Thanks,
G

Ok ok, but did the happiness/need calculation changed that much in this version?
And what does "Tweaked values slightly to increase 'curve' and potency of unhappiness late-game" directly mean? Is it now harder in lategame? Due to stronger tech median modifier? Population modifier?
And why is there a huge difference in the influence in the shown "global needs modifier" by the reduction of the need building? (-50% need building reduces the global needs only by 12% in my case)
Edit: The tech-median modifier is causing my problems..... hes too huge. I went for luxury shopping and somewhat stabilized, but everytime I get one more tech my happiness drops by 20+. And this in a 6-city empire. I wanted to go for science victory, but it actually scares me increasing my tech lead....

 

[Moi Magnus]

Ok ok, but did the happiness/need calculation changed that much in this version?
And what does "Tweaked values slightly to increase 'curve' and potency of unhappiness late-game" directly mean? Is it now harder in lategame? Due to stronger tech median modifier? Population modifier?
And why is there a huge difference in the influence in the shown "global needs modifier" by the reduction of the need building? (-50% need building reduces the global needs only by 12% in my case)

1) The formula was not changed in a significant way. However, increase of needs are delayed to the next increase of population, and you know in advance (UI improvement) from how much your unhappiness will increase per city, so you can "avoid growth" if the city is not ready for the next population and prepare for it. This is a massive shift in gameplay and user experience.

2) A consequence of this (and possibly the suppression of AI growth bonuses) is that late game unhappiness was too low (at least according to Gazebo AI test) since city grow much slower., so the values were tweaked to increase unhappiness in late game back to a "reasonnable level"

3) Global need modifiers where profundly reworked few version ago (don't remember when). I don't know how it works now.

 

[BiteInTheMark]

2) A consequence of this (and possibly the suppression of AI growth bonuses) is that late game unhappiness was too low (at least according to Gazebo AI test) since city grow much slower., so the values were tweaked to increase unhappiness in late game back to a "reasonnable level"

Unhappiness in lategame was too low? And is now increased thanks to less growth boni for AI?
Hahaha.... a joke.... pls..... remove india now from game..... there is no reason now to play this nation anymore. Why should you pick a nation which excells at growth if growth is killing you?
Do you really want a game where are you forced to stop growth at 30 citizen, build every building, construct lot of GPTI, never leave the median tech, only to stay at 0 happiness?

 

[Moi Magnus]

Unhappiness in lategame was too low? And is now increased thanks to less growth boni for AI?
Hahaha.... a joke.... pls..... remove india now from game..... there is no reason now to play this nation anymore. Why should you pick a nation which excells at growth if growth is killing you?
Do you really want a game where are you forced to stop growth at 30 citizen, build every building, construct lot of GPTI, never leave the median tech, only to stay at 0 happiness?

I do agree that India's balance should probably be altered once the happiness tweaks will stabilize.
(For example, India could have back some bonuses to happiness)
But please, don't attack a new version without testing it.

The main problems targetted by the happiness changes of this version are:
1) Unpredictable drop in unhappiness, potentially very high. (Some reports of 4 unhappiness per cities in a single turn)
2) No way to know that you need to work on your happiness "right know". Particularly no UI helping for that.
3) Circle of unhappiness, where your unhappiness increase quicker than you can fix it.

 

[Gazebo]

I do agree that India's balance should probably be altered once the happiness tweaks will stabilize.
(For example, India could have back some bonuses to happiness)
But please, don't attack a new version without testing it.

The main problems targetted by the happiness changes of this version are:
1) Unpredictable drop in unhappiness, potentially very high. (Some reports of 4 unhappiness per cities in a single turn)
2) No way to know that you need to work on your happiness "right know". Particularly no UI helping for that.
3) Circle of unhappiness, where your unhappiness increase quicker than you can fix it.

This. If there’s one thing I loathe, it is people complaining about something without even bothering to test it.

G

 

[BiteInTheMark]

This. If there’s one thing I loathe, it is people complaining about something without even bothering to test it.

G

Nothing changes the fact, the restrictions how to play this game correct are getting higher and higher.
Iam not allowed to ignore any building, cause every building is necessary.
Iam not allowed to grow too fast or too much, cause Iam hit by population modifier.
Iam not allowed to ignore my infrastructure, or I get hit by yield based unhappiness.
Iam not allowed to build wonders I have unlocked cause I need a lot of policies.
Iam not allowed to get too many techs, or I get stroked by tech-median modifier.
As if you're trying to design a game that's desperately trying to prevent any possibility of a run-away.

I do agree that India's balance should probably be altered once the happiness tweaks will stabilize.
(For example, India could have back some bonuses to happiness)
But please, don't attack a new version without testing it.

Pls, do me a favor.... reinstall the 9-25-3 patch and look at my savegame. Look at my little empire, which is at the moment at +5 happiness thanks to excessive luxury shopping.
And then research rocketry, which only need one more turn, and look whats happening.
Tell me whats happening and what I have done wrong ot end up with -20 to +5 happiness. I really want to know, what ive done wrong to deserve that amount of unhappiness. Everyone is open to criticize, deity is welcome the most.
Indiacollapses.Civ5Save

 

[matlajs]

On the other hand, you can create a new city state buddy

 

[chicorbeef]

Nothing changes the fact, the restrictions how to play this game correct are getting higher and higher.
Iam not allowed to ignore any building, cause every building is necessary.
Iam not allowed to grow too fast or too much, cause Iam hit by population modifier.
Iam not allowed to ignore my infrastructure, or I get hit by yield based unhappiness.
Iam not allowed to build wonders I have unlocked cause I need a lot of policies.
Iam not allowed to get too many techs, or I get stroked by tech-median modifier.
As if you're trying to design a game that's desperately trying to prevent any possibility of a run-away.

You can get the tech lead and stay afloat in happiness just fine (check out a few of the many photojournals that were posted) and you can grow your cities large just fine (check CrazyG's Korea photojournal where he does both).

You can avoid the wonder restriction either by
a) Picking Iconography
b) Finishing Statecraft (reduces it)
c) Actually focusing on Culture more

Also, you can avoid tech median now by not growing your cities for a little while, if that consoles you.

I might just check out that save when I'm done my work, actually.

 

[Gazebo]

Posted a hotfix for 10-10 (10-10-2). Fixes follower beliefs sometimes failing to update yields and fixes a restriction for Rome's ability and multiple NWs of the same time.

https://mega.nz/#F!iMNVEISb!gW3aPq-MQ-kibL0lFxrw-w

G

 

[BiteInTheMark]

You can get the tech lead and stay afloat in happiness just fine (check out a few of the many photojournals that were posted) and you can grow your cities large just fine (check CrazyG's Korea photojournal where he does both).

You can avoid the wonder restriction either by
a) Picking Iconography
b) Finishing Statecraft (reduces it)
c) Actually focusing on Culture more

Also, you can avoid tech median now by not growing your cities for a little while, if that consoles you.

I might just check out that save when I'm done my work, actually.

Pls tell me, what is in your opinion a large city?
I checked crazyg Korea play, the capitol was huge, but his second biggest city had only a size of 26. I don't call that big.
And thanks to his fast tech, he was able to pick all the necessary wonders to stay permanent at Golden age.
I will make a multi-player game next Wednesday, and it's kinda impossible to repeat this outcome for 3 human players.

 

[CrazyG]

And thanks to his fast tech, he was able to pick all the necessary wonders to stay permanent at Golden age.

I think the only wonder ever built that game which benefited golden ages was Notre Dame, that was before I had a tech lead. Just FYI.

 

[Stalker0]

Pls tell me, what is in your opinion a large city?
I checked crazyg Korea play, the capitol was huge, but his second biggest city had only a size of 26. I don't call that big.
And thanks to his fast tech, he was able to pick all the necessary wonders to stay permanent at Golden age.
I will make a multi-player game next Wednesday, and it's kinda impossible to repeat this outcome for 3 human players.

Bite,

In the interest of sanity lets make a new thread for this. I am completely willing to discuss the happiness issue with super high pop cities, but in this version we were trying to fix the issue of happiness swings....lets keep the discussion on that and handle possible other happiness concerns in the General Balance area.

 

[Questdog]

In my current game, I am in the Renaissance Era and no city state has built any naval units. Does any one else see this?