New BNW FAQ!

[Arachnofiend]

I would be seriously insulted if Indonesia becomes a Civ.

It barely is a country for 50 years, and hasnt had a significant impact on history, nor does it have now.

It is as likely and justifiable to put Belarus or Uzbekistan into the game.

Okay even an ignorant Eurocentrist American like me knows that Indonesia has made a huge impact on history

All that exploring the Europeans did? Much of it was for the purpose of finding a way to Indonesia that wasn't already taken up by Portugal/Arabia.

Speaking of Indonesia, I think the "for each International Trade Route with" hint could easily be them. What if they received faith for ITR's with foreign civs that had already founded a religion? It would have to be a pretty significant boost since it wouldn't come until after Great Prophets have already spawned but it would be an interesting mechanic.

 

[AriochIV]

Yes. But why is it on the poster? WHHHYYY? If they were just filling space they could have used the Brazilwood Camp. It haunts me!

I'm not convinced that the motte & bailey is significant. Dennis pointed to the Chateau and the Kasbah-thing, but not to the m&b.

 

[Dragonflow]

Yes. But why is it on the poster? WHHHYYY? If they were just filling space they could have used the Brazilwood Camp. It haunts me!

Look at his eyes!
He's following you Eagle Pursuit!

Spoiler :

 

[Eagle Pursuit]

I'm not convinced that the motte & bailey is significant. Dennis pointed to the Chateau and the Kasbah-thing, but not to the m&b.

I wish I could say the same, but the thing bugs me so. It just doesn't make sense for it to be there.

 

[anandus]

The impact of Indonesia on civilization is not as large as China or India.

The Banda islands in what is now Indonesia actually made quite an impact.
The Eurasian civs (China, the muslim world, Europe, etc.) got certain spices from those islands and thus was one of the catalysts for many trade routes throughout history and even for the discovery of the America's.
From a history-trade perspective the Banda islands are in the same league as the silk road (well, almost ).

 

[Fluxx]

Good to know you're Dutch.

I'm Indonesian. And Srivijaya is Indonesia. Yes, it's not "Indonesia" in the modern political entity sense but it is still very much Indonesia.

The point is, we know Civ 5 will never include variations of Indonesia because of Western bias, so Indonesia supporters like me are only asking for an "Indonesia" civ even if that means an unfair blob of their history. If I made the game and I was appealing to a Southeast Asian audience? Of course I would have Majapahit as separate from Srivijaya as separate from modern Indonesia.

But make no mistake: The cultural, economic, and just general evolution of ancient empires in that region have very much led to Indonesia and there is a sense of shared history and pride that goes back even as far back, for some, as the 1st Century

Edit: grammar

I would actually be perfectly fine if they added Srivijaya, or Majapahit for that matter.
They fall under the same relevancy as Siam or the Khmer.

Also I seriously disagree with the 'western' bias.
There are plenty Central asian, and eastern asian civs in Civ5. As well as in previous games.

No matter if you like it or not, modern Indonesia does not fit the 'perequisites' of becoming a civ.
Brasil already is an incredibly borderline case, but imho can be justified due to its current incredible economic growth.

 

[Buccaneer]

A lot of times I wish they had come up with fictional names for AI opponents and not have these annoying years-long nationalistic cheerleading contests.

 

[Eagle Pursuit]

A lot of times I wish they had come up with fictional names for AI opponents and not have these annoying years-long nationalistic cheerleading contests.

I'm not sure the series would be as compelling or go into as many iterations if they had. I do appreciate your point though.

 

[Civciv5]

They have included both India and China as civ.
lizations, not nations. None of them were one big empire or unified for all their history.
Same with Indonesia, they are a civ, even if they actually have a Western name.
Nusantara would be an accurate name for their civilization, but nobody would recognize that.

 

[Leugi]

Also I seriously disagree with the 'western' bias.
There are plenty Central asian, and eastern asian civs in Civ5. As well as in previous games.

No matter if you like it or not, modern Indonesia does not fit the 'perequisites' of becoming a civ.

Again, if it is Indonesia it will not be modern Indonesia at all, but a conglomeration of the empires of the land... (it will be called Indonesia...)

And there IS a western bias... They are very nitpick about having every single European nation pretty much differenced (perhaps with the exception of the Greeks), but then they group other civilizations like India (joined with Mughal's), the Inca (founding Tiwanaku), Polynesia, Siam (with a Khmer head on the background)... At least this time they didn't do a "Native American Empire"... Just count how many civs Europe's got in each iteration in comparison of other regions....

 

[JSMCAG]

I wish I could say the same, but the thing bugs me so. It just doesn't make sense for it to be there.

Eeeeehhhh... The Mausoleum of Halicarnassus is also in there, yet no one is freaking out about that one!
Really, I won't put much weight on that one - as it as been said, Dennis was pointing to the Feitoria, the Chateau and the Kasbah(???) (lots of names in languages other than english! ).

So there is another Civilization with an UA regarding International Trade Routes - could it rival Portugal? Or will it gain a non-economic boost (like, say, culture)?
Also, for the people looking over this is shouting "ITALY!" ... Reaaally? From every possible civilization out there, Italy is the one you want to connect with International Trade Routes? I would totally understand Venice (and wouldn't be surprised if it was Venice, with a Glass resource to boot! ), but Italy screams much more for a bonus for Great Artists, culture and tourism, and not trade routes. It is possible, mind you, but I find it a bit more unlikely than others...

 

[Calouste]

Again, if it is Indonesia it will not be modern Indonesia at all, but a conglomeration of the empires of the land... (it will be called Indonesia...)

And there IS a western bias... They are very nitpick about having every single European nation pretty much differenced (perhaps with the exception of the Greeks), but then they group other civilizations like India (joined with Mughal's), the Inca (founding Tiwanaku), Polynesia, Siam (with a Khmer head on the background)... At least this time they didn't do a "Native American Empire"... Just count how many civs Europe's got in each iteration in comparison of other regions....

I guess you'll find that there is a non-negligible correlation between the number of Civ games Firaxis expects to sell in a specific region and the chance that a civ from that region shows up in the game. And Europe is a large market.

 

[Arachnofiend]

Again, if it is Indonesia it will not be modern Indonesia at all, but a conglomeration of the empires of the land... (it will be called Indonesia...)

And there IS a western bias... They are very nitpick about having every single European nation pretty much differenced (perhaps with the exception of the Greeks), but then they group other civilizations like India (joined with Mughal's), the Inca (founding Tiwanaku), Polynesia, Siam (with a Khmer head on the background)... At least this time they didn't do a "Native American Empire"... Just count how many civs Europe's got in each iteration in comparison of other regions....

Pretty much this. There's not even an argument as to whether or not all these western civs are more relevant due to the west being in power during the globalized era when a civ like Poland gets in despite being little more than a bargaining chip for the real leaders of Europe by the time the Industrial Era rolled around.

 

[SnowKomodo]

The impact of Indonesia on civilization is not as large as China or India.
But they are at least on par with Siam. Saying they would not deserve to be a civ is just very hypocrite if you look at Songhai or the Zulu. The combined achievements of all empires of Indonesia are among the civs that shpuld actually have been included long time ago, maybe even as base civ.
Once again, they have disappointed me, this so called information is not really cheering me up.
I'm more excited about the ongoing Eurovision Song Contest right now.

Indeed. Indonesia could easily be considered a base civ like Khmer or Siam have been in the past. Just because they haven't yet doesn't mean that they are any less deserving - just that Civ is a Western game so Eastern powers rarely make it in the series

 

[Eagle Pursuit]

It's like Christmas with no labels on the presents. Everyone pulls out the same hints and thinks it's for him.

 

[SnowKomodo]

I would actually be perfectly fine if they added Srivijaya, or Majapahit for that matter.
They fall under the same relevancy as Siam or the Khmer.

Also I seriously disagree with the 'western' bias.
There are plenty Central asian, and eastern asian civs in Civ5. As well as in previous games.

No matter if you like it or not, modern Indonesia does not fit the 'perequisites' of becoming a civ.
Brasil already is an incredibly borderline case, but imho can be justified due to its current incredible economic growth.

Who here is arguing for modern Indonesia? Most people just want "Older Indonesia." But your example on the Brazil borderline case: Indonesia is equally justifiable due to their incredible economic growth and very, very crucial role in ASEAN in balancing out the Eastern world

 

[SnowKomodo]

It's like Christmas with no labels on the presents. Everyone pulls out the same hints and thinks it's for him.

Most of the Indonesia, Vietnam and Hungary supporters don't really see it that way. Most of us see no hints in our favor. It's really just the Italy supporters

 

[Al-Iskander]

It's like Christmas with no labels on the presents. Everyone pulls out the same hints and thinks it's for him.

Is "QFT" still a thing? Because this ^ . Yes.

 

[Eagle Pursuit]

Most of the Indonesia, Vietnam and Hungary supporters don't really see it that way. Most of us see no hints in our favor. It's really just the Italy supporters

I think the ITR UA segment could easily be a new puppy for Indonesia.

 

[sanpavlos]

Srivijaya is NOT Indonesia, it is like saying Rome and Italy are the same thing, or the celts and United Kingdom.

But Rome and Italy are the same thing -- in GAMEPLAY terms. Sorry real-life Italians, I'm not at all bashing or diminishing your beautiful nation or culture. What I'm saying is, the distinctions you're drawing really come down to time-frame, i.e. whether we're talking about people on the Italian peninsula 2k yr ago, or their direct descendants on the same peninsula today, who btw embrace Roman culture as a proud (if distant) part of their history. These time-frame distinctions bug me if it means including a "redundant" civ at the expense of some other. So the Romans get Rome and the Italians get Roma? Weak.

But I'm repeating myself from another thread. My rancor aside, Italy not only seems to fit the clues it also strikes me as a civ that would work great with the new features. And though I may wish for other choices, it would qualify as a "fan favorite."

The one "clue" that speaks against Italy (as already pointed out) is the fact that it's named in the achievement list. That's not conclusive either way, but seems pretty loose-lipped to me if it's a full-on civ.

btw the fan-favorite comment to me reads as Sioux. Just my gut.

OK, Italy supporters... go gentle!