New Civ: Switzerland

[Fellow]

Despite only having 'governed' Zurich, he was one of very few Swiss, who was egocentrical enough that everyone followed his will (or not!).

Was he? I Guess you know , that the whole Romandie as well as big parts of the german speaking Switzerland and the Tessin didn't care much of him? So he was perhaps an outstanding person , but probably not outstanding enough for beeing noticed by everyone...

Since it doesn't make sense to put seven people on a leader-photo of civ (diplomatic screen), because it would get way too crowded, we need such extraordinary men or women.
Dufour somehow was a similar personality while guisan is only known for the reduit, but that could have also been just the military "generals".

Well I'dlike to quote you a little link from geocity I guess you accept this as a good and well researched source:

Dieser Waadtländer verkörperte als Oberbefehlshaber der Armee den Wehrwillen des Volks, den Willen zur Unabhängigkeit und Aufrechterhaltung der Neutralität. Eigentlich war Guisan während des zweiten Weltkriegs, wie seinem Vorgänger im ersten, eine rein militärische Rolle zugedacht. Aber die Umstände und seine überragende Persönlichkeit brachten es mit sich, dass General Guisan zum Symbol der Verteidigung gegen das Naziregime wurde. Er hat nicht, wie etwa die Feldmarschälle Rommel und Montgomery, seinen Ruhm auf den Schlachtfeldern erworben. Guisan hat ein gütiges Schicksal diese Rolle erspart.

Die grosse Rolle seines Lebens war nicht in erster Linie eine militärische, sondern eine politische, patriotische und menschliche. Das Wirken Guisans lässt sich im weitesten Sinn mit der Rolle Winston Churchills vergleichen, der für England das Symbol für den Widerstand gegen Hitler-Deutschland verkörperte. Dazu kam, dass es Guisan verstand, engen Kontakt zu hoch und Nieder in Volk und Armee zu halten. Er behandelte einen Soldaten nicht anders als einen Obersten und konnte mit einem Bankier genau so gut umgehen wie mit einem Arbeiter oder Gewerkschaftsführer.

Translatet for the english Readers:
He was a Symbol of the Military will to defend the country the will fot neutrality and freedom. As Well as a Symbol for the Recondition against the Nazi. But The bigest Role of his Life wasn't the military one it was a politic patriotic and human one. He's comparabel to Churchil who was as Guisan a Symbol for the English.

Well, the only military value would be the blocking of the Alps for Axis-transports which would be ok from a military point of view, but else.... I won't discuss this now as it would just take too long and I'm kinda weary of these disputes, reminds me of all these school lessons .

Even if you don't want to do it just a little remarc , There would have been a guerrilla like war against Germany as the People of Yugoslawia did , wich maded Hittler some Headaches... Switzerland would have been even worst , because of his organisated Defence and the shelters.

Frankly, I've never heard of him, so I definitely need to look him up. He probably would be a neat choice, other than the fact that he would be the second Russian, erm Romand.

Being only a military commander doesn't seem enough for me. but worth a look.

thomas LEgler was more than just a Military Comander, look once in the Internet for the Beresinalied (song of the Beresina) you'll find a song he sang to encourage his troops , so he was a kind of psychological leader too.
But wasn't able to show this up , because of the time he lived in.


another Question , the Swiss flagg is in my game only White... is this an Issue of the Mod or of my computer?

 

[mitsho]

Was he? I Guess you know , that the whole Romandie as well as big parts of the german speaking Switzerland and the Tessin didn't care much of him? So he was perhaps an outstanding person , but probably not outstanding enough for beeing noticed by everyone...

Outstanding means in this context that he was a single ruler! I didn't want to say anything in particular on his overall-Swiss influence, but he certainly had some, as he was one of the first and the most fervent reformator.

Well I'dlike to quote you a little link from geocity I guess you accept this as a good and well researched source:

1. geocity is not really a reliable source, but I agree, the facts of your quote are somehow true/defendable.

2. I agree, a point can be made for Guisan, however we've already Dufour included as leader 1. Besides, I just don't like him enough, he is quite near to us in point of time (WWII) and we have heard enough of him and WWII in school, don't you think. Again, it's a personal opinion.

At last, it comes down to the question of wether to have Dufour or Guisan. And I think I have pointed out enough why I prefer Dufour.

Even if you don't want to do it just a little remarc , There would have been a guerrilla like war against Germany as the People of Yugoslawia did , wich maded Hittler some Headaches... Switzerland would have been even worst , because of his organisated Defence and the shelters.

Just one little answer: Yes, and what's the big deal with it? Just making some headaches to Hitler wouldn't have helped the Swiss people, probably would even hurt the Swiss citizens in the big cities more and - worse than all - killed all (or most of) the Jews who fled to and/or hid in Switzerland. Of course, any defence is better than none, but was it worth the money? And, yes it gave hope to the Swiss, but that's an old argument.

thomas LEgler was more than just a Military Comander, look once in the Internet for the Beresinalied (song of the Beresina) you'll find a song he sang to encourage his troops , so he was a kind of psychological leader too.
But wasn't able to show this up , because of the time he lived in.

Well, but he seems to me like a regional hero, wasn't he? I still haven't looked him up, but it seems to me that the same critics apply to him as you put forward against Zwingli (again, I'm not from Zurich!!).

another Question , the Swiss flagg is in my game only White... is this an Issue of the Mod or of my computer?

I do not have the problem, so it might be your version of civ (if all the other flags are shown the right way). It looks to me that the flag symbol of the Swiss is a white cross and the background colour shown is the one of the civ. So, if you have changed/set the Colour of the Swiss to white, it means there will be a white cross on a white flag....

The other possibility would be that somewhere in the files, the standard colou for the flags is changed, there is no transparency, or I don't know. Robo Magic Man will probably know more.

I nevertheless suggest that you update your civIV to the newest patch, if you haven't already done this. Otherwise I don't know what to do.

mitsho

 

[Fellow]

Well After the Bergier report we should know enough... and for me it's not a Question of Dufour or Guisan , I'dlike to have em both

Do you think the Neat is worth it's Money? if you're from Basel is the new Stadtcasino worth it? Difficult questions your asking espacially because we can't proov it anymore...

And as long as humanity has it's hopes it will survive ... the moment there's no more hope people will stop making efforts and therefore die. So it was at least that.

Ok the other aspect what would you have dont at this situation , if we would had been assimilated to the 3 Reich the jewish would have been killed for sure , while with the Reduit there was a least a chance to survive... And they actually did it

For Thomas Legler... I don't even know where he's from... So i guess it can't be a regional Hero ^^

I Updatet it so i'll be waiting for Robo magic man


Sorry for no quotations but I as just to lazy

 

[Robo Magic Man]

I Updatet it so i'll be waiting for Robo magic man

Actually, after seeing this much controversy over the leader, I may just leave it as one leader, or release 2 seperate versions with different second leaders.

 

[Fellow]

Actually, after seeing this much controversy over the leader, I may just leave it as one leader, or release 2 seperate versions with different second leaders.

Well see because there isn't an angry discussion i'd let the discussion go until we found a solution working for everyone , i liked it

But there I still got the prob with the flag wich is quit crappy ... do you have an Idea of what to do?

Ah yea thx very much it's a great mode *proud to win with switzerland *

 

[mitsho]

Sorry for bein that late, but I just wanted to agree with fellow that this is an interesting intellectual discussion with both sides having respect of the other, well unlike a normal politician discussion....

Let's start quoting again...

Well After the Bergier report we should know enough... and for me it's not a Question of Dufour or Guisan , I'dlike to have em both

But you agree that two leaders are enough as it is the standard of Firaxis? If the answer is yes, then I would like to state that I just didn't want two "military" leaders...

Do you think the Neat is worth it's Money? if you're from Basel is the new Stadtcasino worth it? Difficult questions your asking espacially because we can't proov it anymore...

That would get too deep into the case, as this would eventually lead to the question "What is the meaning of life?"
to answer you somehow, yes I do think, the above examples are worth the money, but I can understand your point of view too that the reduit was worth its money. Can we now please stop talking about WWII, this war is being discussed already enough imo.

Ok the other aspect what would you have dont at this situation , if we would had been assimilated to the 3 Reich the jewish would have been killed for sure , while with the Reduit there was a least a chance to survive... And they actually did it

Ok, just one more time, and then I stop with WWII . Was it really the reduit that saved Switzerland from Hitler? Or were it the cooperation and/or the military situation? I'm aware that we won't find a solution to that question in here, as this is a fight battled by countless historians for a long time now. It's just worth a mentioning, (and probably it was both

*erehm* ("Das Boot ist voll!") *erehm*

m

 

[sela1s1son]

Excellent,

This just made my day. Now I can show Ghandi the might of the Swiss Empire!

 

[Fellow]

yea I can agree that 2 Leaders are enough , but I would have nothing against 2 militaristic Leaders , seeing , that the "original swiss" (the one of 1291 not the one of 1845 or nowadays) was formed as a military alliance to defend each others Teritorry and capture new Territory (how the hell do you wright this word in a correct way?) together , as an example the Tessin or the oldest , Einsiedeln.

So in my Opinion we shurely need 2 militaristic leaders , because Switzerland define itself by the military independence of others. ..


I don't talk again about WW2 to please you even if we could discuss month's about it

 

[mitsho]

So, it's just funny that the two military leaders we discussed are from after 1848 . And it is actually 1307, not 1291 But that's just enough of myths.

But I get your point (and btw. territory is the word, from terra... ).

Zwingli btw. was also relatively militaristic

m

 

[Robo Magic Man]

But there I still got the prob with the flag wich is quit crappy ... do you have an Idea of what to do?

Unfortunately, I can't make flags, so I'll have to request one on the forums. I agree that with the cross not being equilateral, it really is pretty crappy.

 

[Fellow]

So, it's just funny that the two military leaders we discussed are from after 1848 . And it is actually 1307, not 1291 But that's just enough of myths.

But I get your point (and btw. territory is the word, from terra... ).

Zwingli btw. was also relatively militaristic

m

lol you've got an obsession with your Zwingli...

I thought just the first entrance in the white book of stans was at 1307.... but the accord was made in 1291 so we should be able to talk of switzerland of 1291 shouldn't we?

The Leaders... well it's quit logical that they are both after that date , because before it there was not a such a high cultur that hero's have been written down we need to ask about old regional story's if we want to find the Hero's of that time... because we wont find much in written form...

Thx for the explanation of the word just wasn't sure about territori or territory.... )

 

[mitsho]

It's not my Zwingli. I think he was a terrible person with "wrong" ideas and their realisation. But he is a great historic personality.

And I do think there are Great (military) heros, but they are all either mythical (Tell, Winkelried) or more local ones/not at all famous in whole Switzerland, (the exception imho is .... ). So, it really is better to have Dufour or Guisan (just not Wille, please; to complete the group of Swiss Generals ).

mitsho

 

[Fellow]

without Wille there we can agree without any problems

Well perhaps we really should stay on one leader exept one of us got a gread Idea in the next few days

But another thing disturbing me is , that Switzerland seems to be a German Land in this mod , they are talking german the whole time...Well i'm not so fan of it actually ^^ As well as the white flagg ^^

 

[mitsho]

without Wille there we can agree without any problems

Well perhaps we really should stay on one leader exept one of us got a gread Idea in the next few days

But another thing disturbing me is , that Switzerland seems to be a German Land in this mod , they are talking german the whole time...Well i'm not so fan of it actually ^^ As well as the white flagg ^^

It's just pretty difficult to create audio files And guess, you'd have to mix the current audio file with the French one, and an Italian one doesn't exist. So what do you do? I think, the German audio isn't an apocalypse

m

 

[Archduke Otto]

May I ask, why not include Theophil Sprecher von Bernegg?

 

[Fellow]

It's ok was just an... input generally

Ehm sorry , but who? never heard about Bernegg but i'dlike to hear more of it

 

[Archduke Otto]

Sprecher was the Swiss chief of staff during the period preceeding wwi and during 1914 -1918; seems to be an interesting person.

At least he's got the aristocratic looks that so brilliantly fit in with civ.

 

[Fellow]

hmmm not even heard about him in history lessons .. mitsho is he familliar to you?

 

[Reprisal]

What are the abilities of the Swiss unique unit? More powerful against melee?

 

[Robo Magic Man]

It has 1 extra strength point and starts with Guerilla 1. A melee bonus would be a good idea, though I may add that.