New Content for New Techs

[Reisk@]

I would like to have the Gatling Gun at Repeating Weapons (where the Machine Gun is now) and then the true Machine Gun at Automatic Weapons. They may be a bit close together, but you do have to get through Artillery and Industrialism to get to Automatics.

That sounds perfect, after all cumbersome gatling gun was semi automatic and had to be cranked to keep firing. The space between two is accurate, they weren't that far off. Some decades.

Btw, has someone already suggested that waterwheels could be made up to something more modern by workers at modern/above times ?

And what about those grenadiers/modern grenadiers ? Are they going to get range 1 ranged shot ? I think at least modern mortar/heavy mortar teams shoud have accurate range 1 goodies are age where artillery already fires 2 spaces away. Maybe they could hit to that nasty first unit that always evades artillery.

Come to think of it, it really is unrealistic and stupid that artillery never hits the first unit.

 

[Vokarya]

That sounds perfect, after all cumbersome gatling gun was semi automatic and had to be cranked to keep firing. The space between two is accurate, they weren't that far off. Some decades.

Btw, has someone already suggested that waterwheels could be made up to something more modern by workers at modern/above times ?

And what about those grenadiers/modern grenadiers ? Are they going to get range 1 ranged shot ? I think at least modern mortar/heavy mortar teams shoud have accurate range 1 goodies are age where artillery already fires 2 spaces away. Maybe they could hit to that nasty first unit that always evades artillery.

Come to think of it, it really is unrealistic and stupid that artillery never hits the first unit.

I think Watermills are pretty good where they stand now: with all technologies, a Watermill generates +3 , +4 , and +5 , where a riverside Farm would generate +8 and +3 . I guess it depends on how much value you put on food vs. hammers. Is 5 food worth 4 hammers and 2 commerce?

Regarding Grenadiers: the XML code for the unit says they get a range 1 attack. I just did some testing, and turning on the Ranged Bombardment option (that allows siege units to range attack) causes a Grenadier to show the targeting squares like a siege unit shows. But there is no button to allow the Grenadier to ranged attack. I think something is broken in the code at a deeper level than I can fix, and my instinct says it has to do with the combat class of the units allowed to ranged attack by the option.

I think artillery doesn't hit the first unit when ranged bombarding as part of balancing that feature; if you want to hit the best unit, you have to risk the artillery in close combat. It's to discourage stacks of all one type of unit. The really odd thing about Civ4 is that the XML code does not allow for straight attack or defense bonuses. I think giving siege units very low strength and high attack bonuses would be ideal to dissuade creating stacks of nothing but siege. (So you could have a catapult with 1 Strength and +400% attack, which would attack at 5 but defend at 1 and be a sitting duck on defense.)

 

[Reisk@]

I think Watermills are pretty good where they stand now: with all technologies, a Watermill generates +3 , +4 , and +5 , where a riverside Farm would generate +8 and +3 . I guess it depends on how much value you put on food vs. hammers. Is 5 food worth 4 hammers and 2 commerce?

Regarding Grenadiers: the XML code for the unit says they get a range 1 attack. I just did some testing, and turning on the Ranged Bombardment option (that allows siege units to range attack) causes a Grenadier to show the targeting squares like a siege unit shows. But there is no button to allow the Grenadier to ranged attack. I think something is broken in the code at a deeper level than I can fix, and my instinct says it has to do with the combat class of the units allowed to ranged attack by the option.

I think artillery doesn't hit the first unit when ranged bombarding as part of balancing that feature; if you want to hit the best unit, you have to risk the artillery in close combat. It's to discourage stacks of all one type of unit. The really odd thing about Civ4 is that the XML code does not allow for straight attack or defense bonuses. I think giving siege units very low strength and high attack bonuses would be ideal to dissuade creating stacks of nothing but siege. (So you could have a catapult with 1 Strength and +400% attack, which would attack at 5 but defend at 1 and be a sitting duck on defense.)

You are right, tech upgrades do the moderinzation of waterwheels nicely.


I have been wondering that grenadier issue for a long time. Civilopedia texts state that they can do ranged attack and were at least some point intented to do so. I think eras after crossbowman really need a mortar-like units that can range attack that first unit like like bowmen.


I would gladly welcome separate attack and defence values to units, ofcourse keeping the raw strength value as well. Tech upgrades could offer almost limitless amount of small delicious attack/defence value upgradings to chase. Naturally the nasty lack of straight a/d-values can be dodged with bonuses against certain unit categories but it is not quite same.

Very true on the end, stack of catapults should have no chance whatsoever against few horsemen, especially if they attack from multiple directions.

 

[Vokarya]

The Propaganda Net is the other new building available at Propaganda. This is originally an AAranda invention for a previous version of RoM.

Propaganda Net is the only National Wonder I want to do at this point; it provides -25% from War Weariness and a tradeoff of +10% and -10% . My idea here is that I do not want it to be an exact duplicate of Mt. Rushmore and I think Propaganda Net should be somewhat sinister. I thought about some other drawbacks like +1 in all cities, so it's good if you are at war, but not so good if you are at peace.

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The button and movie are from the original AAranda. The artwork is an SDI that is actually in the AND FPK files -- it looks like it comes from the BTS FPKs, but I couldn't find where it was used, so it may be from a Warlords mod.

 

[Vokarya]

Woodstock is the first of the two Counterculture Wonders. I'm better at Wonders than just about anything else, so this is what I come up with.

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I made this button and movie a long time ago. There exists a building model for Woodstock, but the Sevopedia gives an error message when I try to use it, and I know so little about making building models that I chose to cut the building model completely.

The big bonus for building Woodstock is that it triggers a one-time Event on building it. It provides a one-shot +1000 per city and +3 temporary . If you don't play with Events, then you will lose the big benefit of Woodstock; since Woodstock is really only remembered for the original, I thought an Event would be the most appropriate way to model this.

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[Vokarya]

Burning Man is the other Counterculture wonder, but because Burning Man comes along a little later historically, it also requires Communication Networks. Burning Man is a major culture-producer, providing +5 from ALL Specialists and +10% per city. This is a late-Modern-Era wonder, so it needs to have a big effect to stand out.

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With artistic buildings and Wonders, sometimes the hard part is drawing the line between expression (measured in ) and entertainment (measured in ). Burning Man falls squarely on the first side.

I used the Pyre Zombie from FFH2 (after removing its club in Nifskope) as the model. I don't want to try and change the skin texture, and I think it looks okay as dark brown skin. If there is a better skin out there, let me know. I could reskin it by changing DDS files.

 

[Vokarya]

Yes, I've been busy. I actually have this part of the project finished up. The Great Firewall is the second thing available at Cyberwarfare besides the Hacker unit. I wasn't sure whether to make this a building Wonder or a Project, but I went with the building for two reasons: game-wise, I can do much more with a building than I can with a project, and conceptually, the Great Firewall needs a substantial effort in hardware and personnel, which I think would be better put into practice as a building that could be captured. This is a total-Espionage booster: a free Security Bureau and +50% in all cities, at the cost of -20% . This is another Wonder, like the Propaganda Net, that has some sinister overtones, and maybe you don't need to build it depending on your situation.

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The building model for this one was interesting to make. I took the green "cage" from the E-Bank, changed its color to red, and blew it up by a size factor of 8 to make the Great Firewall. I just wanted it to have a cool look. I do think buildings should try and have a building model if possible; I won't hold back an idea for lack of a model, but I'll incorporate what I can.

The other thing I thought was fun about this is that this is the first time I have used a Special Building Info. In this case, the Special Building Info is used to prevent players from building the Great Firewall before any player builds the Internet. I think Special Building Info is really underutilized and, in the future, we can do more with it. It's currently used for very little - most of it is grouping the religious buildings together.

 

[Vokarya]

The last thing that I want to add for this round is Zurich-Orbital. This is a corporate space station that I think has shown up in a couple cyberpunk settings. I know it is in both Neuromancer and GURPS Cyberworld. It's the orbital equivalent of a Swiss bank.

Since Zurich-Orbital is a space station and is not on Earth, I chose to make Zurich-Orbital a Project and not a building. The main drawback to making Zurich-Orbital a Project is that I can only assign one tech prerequisite, and Megacorporations is the reason for Z-O in the first place. Ideally, Z-O would require Megacorporations and Orbital Flight, or at least Megacorporations and Space Stations. The best I can do is requiring any player to create the International Space Station first before starting Z-O. Z-O itself provides +25% and in all cities and allows players to build the Zurich-Orbital Uplink.

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The Zurich-Orbital Uplink provides highly secure data transfer, so it provides an additional bonus to and and helps catch rival Spies. Any player can build it once Zurich-Orbital is built (after all, it's a corporate station and will accept anyone with money). It does require Megacorporations tech and Computer Network buildings, so you have to be at least equal to the Z-O owner to benefit.

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I found this satellite dish model in the Planetfall mod. It's used as the Unity Observation Bay.

 

[Vokarya]

So, I'm done for new stuff in this thread. This is all the new stuff that I want to add to flesh out the new technologies that I added with the Tech Tree revisions. I still want to add and modify more things, so I am not done by a long shot.

Once we figure out a good place to pause with the DLL modifications and release AND 2.1, all of this will get uploaded to the SVN alongside the Tech Tree revisions. I think my personal next project is just going to be sorting out all of these added files to know which ones have to be uploaded; I personally have not updated my SVN download since 632 in order to not have to update all of the files I'm modifying, and I haven't done any serious playing since I started the Tech Tree revisions. On the other hand, I'm still not sure if I'm ready to stop thinking of mod adjustments and start playing again.

 

[45°38'N-13°47'E]

Very very nice Vokarya. I'm looking for a good place to pause for DLL modifications. I guess it's a matter of weeks, probably; so I'd say before the end of June we'll have AND2.1.

 

[Sword_Of_Geddon]

Not sure this is the right place for this but here goes. Some suggestions.

-1. It always bugged me that Nagualism reuses the Hindu movie, I believe the "Extra" mod/Amra's BTS mod had a great founding movie for Nagualism/Mesoamericanism. Also the logo/symbol in extra is pretty nice too.
-2. Maybe add afew more religious based wonders, sort of like how Kemetism has. I think it was dancing hoskuld who made some additional wonders for the existing RoM religions.
-3. Ethnic art gaps. Afew existing units I think could use some varying ethnic art. The Paladin or other knight units come to mind.

 

[Vokarya]

Not sure this is the right place for this but here goes. Some suggestions.

-1. It always bugged me that Nagualism reuses the Hindu movie, I believe the "Extra" mod/Amra's BTS mod had a great founding movie for Nagualism/Mesoamericanism. Also the logo/symbol in extra is pretty nice too.
-2. Maybe add afew more religious based wonders, sort of like how Kemetism has. I think it was dancing hoskuld who made some additional wonders for the existing RoM religions.
-3. Ethnic art gaps. Afew existing units I think could use some varying ethnic art. The Paladin or other knight units come to mind.

If you can point us to new art, I'm sure we can figure out how to implement it.

Personally, I'm not a fan of requiring religions for Wonders. I feel that a major element of Wonders is the competition factor, and if a religion does not spread (and there are a lot of elements that can prevent a religion from spreading), it's too easy a Wonder to build for the founding player. I think we already have enough problems with religion hoarding that we don't need to make them worse.

 

[Sword_Of_Geddon]

-For new ethnic art I'd recommend looking at Realism Invictus, Variatus Deletat or Diversica

I see your point about the religous based wonders. I think what I'd like to see though are more wonders from areas of the world outside Europe. Mesoamerica had quite afew, as did India(other than the Taj Mahal). I think it would be cool to see these in game is all.

 

[Vokarya]

I see your point about the religous based wonders. I think what I'd like to see though are more wonders from areas of the world outside Europe. Mesoamerica had quite afew, as did India(other than the Taj Mahal). I think it would be cool to see these in game is all.

I agree with you on the Wonders. I like to do new Wonders, but I have a hard time finding buildings outside of Europe/America (in later eras) that both have a good mechanical hook (what will this do that other Wonders don't?) and a good story hook (does this feel like a Wonder?). Religious buildings as Wonders work for me as long as they are State Religion must be present in city without specifying which religion.

 

[Sword_Of_Geddon]

Lets see if I can help with wonder effects, names etc. I'll try to mention only those wonders I know have graphics.

Wonders from India:

-Tower of Victory(graphics for this can be found in the Indonesian civ by Dumanios in the New Civilizations section of the civ4 creation and customization forums). Becomes availiable with Polytheism. Becomes obsolete with Rifling.


Effects: Military units trained in the city gain a strength promotion. City trains military units %5 faster.

Wonders from Egypt:

-Abu Simbel(Extra mod has graphics for this wonder, I believe its in the downloads database as well): Becomes availible with Aestetics, goes obsolete with Liberalism(or other tech from this period).

Effects: Spreads your state religion, all cities with your state religion present gain a small bonus to hammers.

-Pyramids of Nubia/The Black Pyramids: Becomes availible with Aristocracy, goes obsolete with Divine Right.

Effects: All your cities gain a free Archery Range(The Nubians were legendary archers).

Wonders from Mesoamerica:

-Temple of the Jaguar(graphics can be found on this site, either in the mod components area in a modular wonders thread, or in the DL database I believe). Becomes availible with Sacrifice. Obsolete with Optics.

Effects: The city with this wonder gains a small culture boast whenever you disband a unit. Also helps spread your religion and gives units trained in the city a shock promotion.

-Templo Mayor(I believe Dancing Hosculd and Strategy Only had a modular wonders pack which included this wonder, though it was called something else, Temple of the Sun I think): This becomes availible with Agriculture and Metal Casting. Obsolete with Astronemy.

Effects: Since this one was a temple to the Aztec gods of war and rain/farming, I think giving the city that builds this wonder a growth bonus/bonus to food as well as a small bonus to military production work. I'd also make it give the "Flower War" promotion(found in Caveman to Cosmos I believe), which would make any unit killed in battle by units with the promotion become either a worker or a slave unit.

-Macchu Piccu: Becomes availible with Mountaineering and Crop Rotation. Gives the city that builds it a huge economic boast. Becomes obsolete with Corporation.

 

[Sword_Of_Geddon]

Hope that is helpful.

 

[Vokarya]

Hope that is helpful.

You've given me some good ideas. I just don't want to do anything else until we finish the next steps -- first, finishing the current round of DLL modifications and making that AND 2.1, and then uploading all of the changes that I have made to be the first part of the next round.

 

[Sword_Of_Geddon]

Glad I could help. I'm very happy you and your teammates are continuing A New Dawn. It really is one of the best gaming experiences I've ever had.

 

[Vokarya]

I've uploaded all of the content from this thread to the SVN. I'm going to delete the screenshots from this thread to make room for some more screenshots in other threads. What goes into the SVN now probably will need some tweaking, so these screenshots may not be accurate any more.