New EU Data Directive, Actually pretty good

He also was sarcastic ;)
If you don't like it, don't join.
Or, you know, one quits living in a world which is governed by simple rules and instead looks at the real world and asks what is for the biggest benefit for the people in this world. In this case not having to partially socially alienate yourself so you can keep some jurisdiction of your virtual personality.
 
Or, you know, one quits living in a world which is governed by simple rules and instead looks at the real world and asks what is for the biggest benefit for the people in this world. In this case not having to partially socially alienate yourself so you can keep some jurisdiction of your virtual personality.

Well, I'm with amadeus on this one. It's foolish, and in fact deceitful, to believe that information once shared can be controlled. Legislating that won't work. Not with the ever-increasing ease of storing and data-mining what people willfully give away about themselves. The only thing which might work would be restricting the collection of data to begin with. But then... that wouldn't be popular, because it would make "social networks" less appealing. Most people seem to want to want to expose themselves. What facebook provides, or any other service of its kind, is an easy to set up personal web page and an easy to set up internet filter for people's interests ("friends" and communicating with them, "likes", whatever). And that people very much want. Then at some point they will regret having shared something. But they can't have it both ways, no one can.

The likes of Facebook can do this, and pay for this, by collecting and selling personal information. The collecting part could be reduced by law, but not very much, I'm afraid. But the data mining and selling? Only if users were willing to pay for the service, or to work to maintain peer-to-peer decentralized services. They don't, and won't.

The future will be and end to most privacy. It looks appalling (I find it so, at least). But the end result may (?) actually be positive, if it actually ends the need for privacy: as people's little idiosyncrasies, eccentricities (and most people have some of whatever kind) get exposed, people will have to become more socially liberal. Or it may turn out the opposite: people's personal information will be mined and sold, not publicly exposed. And social networks give that ability for each user to filter the Internet, so the end result can be a narrowing people's views instead.

So, what about this idea: legislate that all information collected by the likes of Facebook must be made publicly available to anyone, with Facebook's own data mining tools, after a set period of time. That way they get their financing to keep the network running, and people have to both learn to be more careful with sharing stuff, and see that there are indeed all kinds of people out there an they can only accept that diversity. Just as I thing that copyright will be defeated by technology, so do I thing that privacy will, legislation notwithstanding. I believe that this alternative, of accepting that future with reduced privacy and trying to make the best of it, would be a more realistic approach.
 
Or, you know, one quits living in a world which is governed by simple rules and instead looks at the real world and asks what is for the biggest benefit for the people in this world. In this case not having to partially socially alienate yourself so you can keep some jurisdiction of your virtual personality.
What is wrong with simple rules? What good comes from rules that are complicated and ambiguous? The simple-world mindset to me is someone who says "here's a possible problem, the government should fix it." Those people ignore the very real moral and practical consequences of their so-called solutions.

Would you answer a couple questions for me?

(1.) A company has 100,000 user records backed-up on a CD-ROM. One day, Joe Smith closes his account and decides that he wants all of his records eliminated. Should the company be required to destroy the CD-ROM?

(2.) A stock photography site hosts some pictures shot by Bob Jones. The site paid Jones $500 for the license to resell his pictures. In the contract, it states explicitly that the site reserves the privilege to resell his pictures indefinitely. Six months after signing the contract, Jones decides he wants his pictures taken off the site. Should the site be required to take down the pictures?
 
It isn't property and people agreed to the terms of the web site. If you don't like it, don't join.


It's my property, and id they use it for anything other than my purposes, they are thieves. Every company you do business with now steals from you. And most don't even tell you that they are doing it.
 
And so a libertarian once again reveals true pro-corporate colors.
 
Well, I'm with amadeus on this one. It's foolish, and in fact deceitful, to believe that information once shared can be controlled. Legislating that won't work. Not with the ever-increasing ease of storing and data-mining
It is not about total control. Of course not. It is about influencing the flow of information - and as history proves, that can be influenced pretty well. The state does not have to directly enforce, as it doesn't regarding many laws concerning the private sector.
In the case of the particular law introduced by the EU: By establishing a solid and waterproof legal ground on which to sue facebook whenever it has hurt its legal duties as set in stone by the law. Which I think it is very likely will happen should it not abide. And once it has happened once, others will smell the opportunity to make easy money. The market - based on the legal frame - will force facebook and other institutions to follow the law as far as selling or publishing personnel data goes (should you read this amadeus - yes I gladly admit - the free market is powerful and awesome! Just not all by itself. It is a tool to be used, not the end of all wisdom).

Alright, the next part seems to be a lot of twaddle about how people freely do it and want it. Yaaawn... I yawn, because it isn't a good argument in itself, contrary to what some people seem to believe because their ideology demands it. I like to view it as a morally motivated self-rightist fetish. But, moral principles aren't that useful for constructing a society. How moral those moral principles turn out in action more so.
it actually ends the need for privacy: as people's little idiosyncrasies, eccentricities (and most people have some of whatever kind) get exposed, people will have to become more socially liberal.
If you ask me, this is similar to libertarian economics. The hope that certain forces will force people to become better human beings, while in reality, they stay what they are - or even more likely they behave in ways not anticipated - and the system fails tremendously.
What is wrong with simple rules?
When it comes to society as a whole - they rarely reflect reality.
What good comes from rules that are complicated and ambiguous?
In said context - better reflections of reality.
The simple-world mindset to me is someone who says "here's a possible problem, the government should fix it."
That is another simple-world mindset not of that much use, true.
Those people ignore the very real moral and practical consequences of their so-called solutions.
True. My beef is: so do you :p
Would you answer a couple questions for me?
I think I kind of have a fetish for grandstanding. So: hell yea.
(1.) A company has 100,000 user records backed-up on a CD-ROM. One day, Joe Smith closes his account and decides that he wants all of his records eliminated. Should the company be required to destroy the CD-ROM?
Technically, yes. Practically, no. No one is going to enforce it. See my conversation with inno in this very same post.
(2.) A stock photography site hosts some pictures shot by Bob Jones. The site paid Jones $500 for the license to resell his pictures. In the contract, it states explicitly that the site reserves the privilege to resell his pictures indefinitely. Six months after signing the contract, Jones decides he wants his pictures taken off the site. Should the site be required to take down the pictures?
No. This is a good case for how the complexity of the world needs to be kept in mind, especially when it comes to laws.
 
:lmao:

One has to love the libertarian logic:

"We worship personal freedom so much that we'd allow any corporation to trample on the freedoms of citizens. We're only wroth when it's the /eviel/ government who's doing the trampling."

I often wonder if the libertarians are just blind or totally callous. It is also a shame there isn't a society willing to put their deluded ideological principles into practice. It would end up as a lovely case study of neo-feudalism.
 
It isn't property and people agreed to the terms of the web site. If you don't like it, don't join.
Actually the directly is re-equilibrating a disproportion ion the contract between user and the corporation.
For example if I join a social network like Facebook I give them the right to use my personal information.
However once I stop using the service, Facebook shouldn't be allowed to continue using my personal data: I didn't sell my personal data, I just gave them a temporary right to use.
This power should be used recursively: the main contractor (in this case facebook) should not be allowed to sell personal data for which they have just a temporary right of use.

The EU directive is simply regulating this exchange between services and personal data. giving the users a better negotiating power and a better control on their own data.


At the same time personal data is a property.
It's not physical, but it has a value (if it didn't have a value why corporation would pay to get it?) and we need laws to establish that we, the people, have legal possession of our own data.

If it forces corpoprations to erase data, yes. It's government telling business what to do.
It's the freedom of individuals against the freedom of corporations.
EU decided to re-equilibrate an inbalance between the two.
In my personal view the freedom of individual is more important than the freedom of a corporation.
 
Would you answer a couple questions for me?

(1.) A company has 100,000 user records backed-up on a CD-ROM. One day, Joe Smith closes his account and decides that he wants all of his records eliminated. Should the company be required to destroy the CD-ROM?
The company would be required to back-up user records in a way that allows users to request their deletion, and the company would be compelled to delete their records in accordance with the law. In other words, storing backups on CDs would be inadequate to meet the requirements of this law; they would have to be backed up in a less idiotic way.

(2.) A stock photography site hosts some pictures shot by Bob Jones. The site paid Jones $500 for the license to resell his pictures. In the contract, it states explicitly that the site reserves the privilege to resell his pictures indefinitely. Six months after signing the contract, Jones decides he wants his pictures taken off the site. Should the site be required to take down the pictures?
This law has no affect on stock photography or any other copyright issue like that. Bob can request that his personal information (e.g. bank details) can be removed from the company's database, however.
 
I often wonder if the libertarians are just blind or totally callous. It is also a shame there isn't a society willing to put their deluded ideological principles into practice. It would end up as a lovely case study of neo-feudalism.
Don't the Russians always have a spare Siberian republic for such things?
 
It is not about total control. Of course not. It is about influencing the flow of information - and as history proves, that can be influenced pretty well. The state does not have to directly enforce, as it doesn't regarding many laws concerning the private sector.
[...]
If you ask me, this is similar to libertarian economics. The hope that certain forces will force people to become better human beings, while in reality, they stay what they are - or even more likely they behave in ways not anticipated - and the system fails tremendously.
When it comes to society as a whole - they rarely reflect reality.

Well, I do admit to the dangers of losing privacy. But simply see it as unavoidable, and pretending that it can be avoided will only fool some more people and increase the power disparity between those who will have and will make use (regardless of what the law states) of the collected information, and those who are unaware of it going on. This directive in particular seems to me unenforceable.

As I said, I see this new legislation as something similar to legislation against digital copies for the sake of defending copyright. Technological changes must be met with adaptation, not denial.
In a very law-abiding society it might work, so long as the vast majority of people back it. And I also don't believe that the vast majority of people actually are inclined to either respect copyright, or demand (and submit to the inconvenient) to have their privacy strictly respected. In this, privacy is similar to security: having more of it causes inconveniences.

But I guess a balance will eventually be struck, and yes, it will involve some legislating.
 
I really have to be careful with my trolly pseudo-libertarian comments. People seem to think I'm serious.
 
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