Timsup2nothin
Deity
- Joined
- Apr 2, 2013
- Messages
- 46,737
wait, but Lynch did film it, no?
I understand fans of the book have problems with the movie, and even I have some problems with the movie, but honestly.. I still really liked it. It's not a bad movie, that's all I can say.
I am a fan of the book. I don't really have any problem with the movie. I still think it is a book that cannot be effectively made into a movie.
I watched the movie and thought it was cool.
I watched the movie a second time, on television, spent every commercial break trying to answer questions from my fellow viewers who had not read the book, and when it was over none of them liked it because despite "having a guide" they were still totally lost by the end.
It is possible, now, to imagine Dune as a miniseries, like Shogun which is another book that would not work as a movie. It is also possible to imagine it as an HBO series. But it doesn't really work as a movie. There is too much of it to cram into the available time.
A bit underwhelming that they killed both a navigator and an important Bene Gesserit just like that.
I also detest the actor who plays Paul's son
Ajidica
High Quality Person
- Joined
- Nov 29, 2006
- Messages
- 22,482
Disagree. While I wasn't a huge fan of Blade Runner 2049, Villenueve's camera work oozed atmosphere, same with his work in Arrival. If anyone can create a vision of Dune as something unique, it's probably him.
I dunno, I remember Kyle McLachlan in Lynch's Dune being pretty whiny and proto-emo. Throw on some guyliner and you are 50% toward Timothy Chalamet.
I haven't read the book in a while, but I remember Paul being pretty whiny until the time skip.
I am mostly disappointed by the buildings in the trailer. They have no style at all. In Lynch the environments were memorable.
A few of the characters also are toned down, from the Lynch version. Eg the Mohiam looks like a generic widow, whereas in the 1984 she was very distinctive. Perhaps it was just Lynch, not anything to do with the books - but the 2000 tv series doesn't have Mohiam be generic either, at least not in the timeline of this new film.
Jessica in the new version isn't as impressive either. Most of them look like random people.
The Harkonnen do look better, though - well, at least Rabban does, but I never liked Lynch's Vladimir either.
And we won't get to see the Emperor being played by Dali
Here 1984,2000 and new the film side by side. Vladimir Harkonnen in the 2000 series was good. The worms had really terrible CGI, as did the buildings...
A few of the characters also are toned down, from the Lynch version. Eg the Mohiam looks like a generic widow, whereas in the 1984 she was very distinctive. Perhaps it was just Lynch, not anything to do with the books - but the 2000 tv series doesn't have Mohiam be generic either, at least not in the timeline of this new film.
Jessica in the new version isn't as impressive either. Most of them look like random people.
The Harkonnen do look better, though - well, at least Rabban does, but I never liked Lynch's Vladimir either.
And we won't get to see the Emperor being played by Dali
Here 1984,2000 and new the film side by side. Vladimir Harkonnen in the 2000 series was good. The worms had really terrible CGI, as did the buildings...
Last edited:
There actually is a 2-hour severely edited version of Shogun (yes, the Richard Chamberlain one). I prefer the entire 8 hours, don't-have-a-clue-what-the-Japanese-dialogue-is-about version. I think I learned about 3 words of Japanese from that miniseries. I once watched the whole thing on one of the French channels, and didn't have a problem. The English dialogue is uncomplicated enough that I was able to follow it in French, and they didn't dub the Japanese, so it didn't matter.
Fun fact I read somewhere, awhile back, and am not sure it's 100% true: The actress who played Mariko, the character who was supposed to be teaching Blackthorne how to speak Japanese, actually couldn't speak English worth a damn. She had to sound out her English lines phonetically, and did it well enough that it really wasn't noticeable.
Dune would only work as a multi-season series, to really get into the meat of it. There are good parts and bad parts of both the Lynch movie and the miniseries, but unfortunately people tend to remember the bad parts more (please don't let the Bene Gesserit and Sardaukar wear funny hats this time).
It's in the book. They were part of a cabal that was planning to assassinate Paul. This is the basic story of Dune Messiah. The rest of it is a combination of how the Fremen went from warriors to setting up a new religion and becoming corrupt (in the Inama Nushif video, the man being stuffed into the deathstill - the coffin-like thing - was one of the primary traitors among the Fremen, and he was going to be executed by having all the water extracted from his body while still alive).
Irulan was part of the cabal as well, btw. Frank Herbert's first draft of Dune Messiah had her visiting Mohiam in her dungeon cell and both of them being murdered by a Fremen mob. He always did intend to kill off Mohiam, but I'm glad he changed his mind about Irulan. I didn't like her in the books, but the miniseries version was a much more complex and sympathetic character.
In the new movie? He doesn't give a great first impression. But none of the other Paul actors were perfect, either. Kyle MacLachlan was good, but I have to wonder where he found a hairdresser in the desert. That said, he has something over the other Paul actors: He's a genuine Dune fan and was very familiar with the novels long before the Lynch movie was being made.I also detest the actor who plays Paul's son
Totally disagree here. It was Alec Newman's Paul who was a whiny brat, slouching around with his feet on the furniture. Kyle MacLachlan's Paul displayed more dignity as a Duke's son, and some competence at fighting, in the scene with his tutors.
Mohiam stood out in the Lynch movie because Sian Phillips is very good at portraying characters who scare the crap out of people. Check out I, Claudius sometime. She played Empress Livia Augusta, who lied and manipulated and maneuvered others into doing her dirty work for decades, all so she could put her son, Tiberius, in as Emperor - in an attempt to rule through him (it didn't work out like she'd planned, but she was still pretty formidable during his reign).I am mostly disappointed by the buildings in the trailer. They have no style at all. In Lynch the environments were memorable.
A few of the characters also are toned down, from the Lynch version. Eg the Mohiam looks like a generic widow, whereas in the 1984 she was very distinctive. Perhaps it was just Lynch, not anything to do with the books - the tv series have Mohiam also be generic.
Jessica in the new version isn't as impressive either. Most of them look like random people.
The Harkonnen do look better, though - well, at least Rabban does, but I never liked Lynch's Vladimir either.
And we won't get to see the Emperor being played by Dali
Fun fact: Patrick Stewart (Gurney Halleck in the Lynch movie) played the villainous Lucius Aelius Sejanus in I, Claudius.
About the casting of Jessica: When Frank Herbert was introduced to Francesca Annis and told she would be playing Jessica, he was a bit uncertain. But as soon as she got into character and spoke Jessica's dialogue, he realized she was perfect (this is related in Ed Naha's book The Making of Dune).
I wasn't overly impressed with either actress who played Jessica in the miniseries (there were two different ones). But here's a fun fact: The second one also played the Borg Queen in Star Trek.
Gotta ask, though: WTH does a "generic widow" look like?
A widow is a woman whose spouse has died. They're not all middle-senior aged with grey hair. And it's not common for Bene Gesserit to marry unless the BG superiors order it for political purposes (the only married BG characters I know of in Dune are the wife of Shaddam IV (who we don't see in the novels or movie, but she rated an article in the Dune Encyclopedia) and Margot, Lady Fenring, wife of Count Hasimir Fenring.^The actor who played Paul's son, not Paul 
(so in the syfy series)
I watched the second part of that mini-series now, and I must say the plot is a lot less interesting than in the first part (which is what is shown also in the 1984 film, and will be in these two new movies).
(so in the syfy series)I watched the second part of that mini-series now, and I must say the plot is a lot less interesting than in the first part (which is what is shown also in the 1984 film, and will be in these two new movies).
yung.carl.jung
Hey Bird! I'm Morose & Lugubrious
This post reads like Adorno came back to the grave to stick it to the MCU. In a good way.
Completely agree on Villenueve, I feel like he is a very capable director and has got the cinematographic chops for this job.
Disagree on Kyle though. I think he fit the role very well, both in terms of looks and even more in terms of personality. He was never whiny or angsty imho, more like reserved, which befits a nobleman. Also he was (is!) pretty damn hot, and definitely has the "1000 years of genetic culture" vibe going for him
I think that award belongs to Jodorowsky, personally. His Dune might have been a cluster****, but it certainly would have been the most original
warpus
Sommerswerd asked me to change this
IMO to create a successful Dune on the big screen, you first have to get the characters right. That means that casting has to be spot on and the dialogue and character development have to be done right as well. The characters lead you through the story, so if you mess up the characters, you won't get the story right either.
Getting the setting and backdrop for the story right is the 2nd thing you have to get right. A big part of Dune was Herbert's years of research that went into the sort of world building he did for the Dune universe. It's a big part of the story, and it's in many cases gives you something that at least on paper is made for the big screen.
At first glance this new movie is at least trying to get these things right. Trailers can be very deceiving, so I am reserving judgement until I see the movie in full, but so far it looks very promising.
Getting the setting and backdrop for the story right is the 2nd thing you have to get right. A big part of Dune was Herbert's years of research that went into the sort of world building he did for the Dune universe. It's a big part of the story, and it's in many cases gives you something that at least on paper is made for the big screen.
At first glance this new movie is at least trying to get these things right. Trailers can be very deceiving, so I am reserving judgement until I see the movie in full, but so far it looks very promising.
I didn't like Leto II either. I especially don't like him because there was an obnoxious POS on my Dune forum who trolled and flamed incessantly until I permabanned him. Then he turned up as a DL and I permabanned that account as well. He used Leto II as his avatar, and that has completely ruined whatever smidgen of good will I ever had for that character, which wasn't very damn much to start with.^The actor who played Paul's son, not Paul
Dune or Children of Dune? They combined Dune Messiah and Children of Dune into the second miniseries. The Inama Nushif video shows what happened shortly before the ending of Dune Messiah. The twins are born, Chani dies, and the Tleilaxu offer Paul a deal - they will revive Chani as a ghola if Paul abdicates and gives up his power and assets to the Tleilaxu. Paul, at this point, is truly blind, but becomes able to see through the pre-Born Leto II's eyes - and kills the Face Dancer who offered the bribe. Alia and Duncan marry (keep in mind she's only 16 at this point), Alia takes over running the Empire as the twins' Regent, and Paul goes out to the desert to die, as a blind Fremen is supposed to do.
The end. Children of Dune starts 9 in-universe years later (the miniseries made them older, for obvious reasons).
Alia has become utterly corrupt, as have the Fremen religious leaders. Alia, as a pre-Born, becomes possessed by her Other Memories (thus becoming what the Bene Gesserit call Abomination). So it's the spirit of Baron Harkonnen possessing her throughout most of the Children of Dune portion of that miniseries.
The twins are growing up, and survive an assassination attempt by House Corrino. Jessica has been living on Caladan with Gurney, and has gone back to the Bene Gesserit; she goes to Arrakis to test the twins to find out if they're human. She's sure Ghanima is okay, but realizes that Leto is likely something else they're not sure of. Gurney, therefore, uses a different method to test Leto... which results in him taking on the sandtrout skin and gradually turning into a sandworm.
While this is going on, we find that Paul isn't dead after all. He survived and has become a mysterious figure from the desert known as the Preacher. He makes trips to Arrakeen to preach against Alia's corruption, and is killed when the crowd considers he's gone too far. Alia, by this point, is almost fully possessed by the Baron, but there's still a sliver of her left that realizes she's just caused her brother's death. She defies the Baron, and kills herself.
Leto II takes over as God-Emperor, and with the pledge of marriage between Ghanima and Farad'n Corrino (all future Atreides are descended from them), that brings us to the end of the third novel. And good luck to anyone who even considers filming the fourth book. I don't think it can be done and make any sort of coherent story.
The second part of the mini-series, whose first episode ends with the clip you posted
Obviously a decision based on politics. I am not sure if in the books the jihad is in the end seen as negative (some characters who took part in it seem to think so). @Valka D'Ur would help with that
warpus
Sommerswerd asked me to change this
They want to be able to show this movie in those peace loving countries like Saudi Arabia, probably.
Besides, the novelization is never accurate when a movie is made. In Stephen King's IT there is an orgy involving 12 year old children. Or maybe I should call it a gangbang? Whatever it is, there was NO mention of it in the movie version, for obvious reasons. It didn't make any sense in the novel either, it was just sort of awkwardly included there, so in that case I can understand not including it in the movie. Imagine if you're watching a horror movie and then 12 year olds start banging. Man, King is a messed up guy. But he can sure write. Surprised no editors went "Uhhhhhhhh we can't include that part, what the hell man", but I guess the 80s were a different time.
I don't mind this change, unless they change more. It's just a word. If it means the movie can be shown in more countries and be more $$ successful, then fine, whatever, let's do this, it seems like it would increase the odds of the story being finished in the sequel. If the movie doesn't do well, we won't get it, and I probably won't even notice. You can easily change the words in your head as you're watching
I don't get how "Crusade" is fine though. That has the same sort of connotations as "Jihad". But maybe not in muslim countries *shrug*, I won't presume to understand that pov without somebody chiming in with more information/context
Besides, the novelization is never accurate when a movie is made. In Stephen King's IT there is an orgy involving 12 year old children. Or maybe I should call it a gangbang? Whatever it is, there was NO mention of it in the movie version, for obvious reasons. It didn't make any sense in the novel either, it was just sort of awkwardly included there, so in that case I can understand not including it in the movie. Imagine if you're watching a horror movie and then 12 year olds start banging. Man, King is a messed up guy. But he can sure write. Surprised no editors went "Uhhhhhhhh we can't include that part, what the hell man", but I guess the 80s were a different time.
I don't mind this change, unless they change more. It's just a word. If it means the movie can be shown in more countries and be more $$ successful, then fine, whatever, let's do this, it seems like it would increase the odds of the story being finished in the sequel. If the movie doesn't do well, we won't get it, and I probably won't even notice. You can easily change the words in your head as you're watching
I don't get how "Crusade" is fine though. That has the same sort of connotations as "Jihad". But maybe not in muslim countries *shrug*, I won't presume to understand that pov without somebody chiming in with more information/context
warpus
Sommerswerd asked me to change this
A school here (in Canada mind you, not the U.S.) is under fire for using the mascot name "The Crusaders". I don't know if they're changing it, but I was under the impression that this word was not really that well accepted here in North America due to all that.. well, history. I've heard politicians using this word without thinking and then backtracking.
I guess there really isn't a better word to use, and this one is the safer of the two
I suspect they also don't want to try to portray the Fremen as Muslims too much. There's obvious parallels there, and in the movie they are the good guys.. sort of.. in many cases though - not really. I think they want to avoid those negative connotations popping up. If it's a crusade then it's tougher to argue that these Fremen are supposed to be muslims, maybe.
I guess there really isn't a better word to use, and this one is the safer of the two
I suspect they also don't want to try to portray the Fremen as Muslims too much. There's obvious parallels there, and in the movie they are the good guys.. sort of.. in many cases though - not really. I think they want to avoid those negative connotations popping up. If it's a crusade then it's tougher to argue that these Fremen are supposed to be muslims, maybe.
So already they're doing a retcon. "Jihad" and "Crusade" can both mean "holy war" but "crusade" doesn't always mean that. Context is critical in pinning down whether they mean the same basic thing, but even if they do, the nuances are different. If you take medieval era Crusades as an example, no doubt some of the participants really were into it for sincerely-held religious reasons. But many others weren't; they had numerous reasons for going on crusade, and many were simply out of self-interest - to make their fortunes, to achieve glory (and be noticed by the king and be granted rank, money, privileges, and power), or to avoid prison or execution for some crime they'd committed.
It's similar in Dune. Many Fremen participated in the Jihad because they sincerely believed that Muad'Dib was holy and it was necessary to bring this to other worlds. But there are others who just wanted to get off Arrakis and see other worlds. One of them, in Dune Messiah, states that he left because he wanted to see an ocean. It was something beyond the imagination of the Fremen at that time, that there could be so much water that you couldn't see across it, or that it could be so cold that it would freeze. Still others wanted to be rich, and they settled on the worlds they traveled to.
I can't find Commodore's post there, so if I'm missing any context for it, please help me out.Kyriakos said:Obviously a decision based on politics. I am not sure if in the books the jihad is in the end seen as negative (some characters who took part in it seem to think so). @Valka D'Ur would help with thatCommodore said:
The section of the Dune Encyclopedia that deals with Fremen religion is huge, and would take numerous posts to even summarize. For anyone who is seriously interested in this, I recommend tracking down a copy of the Encyclopedia (they're not cheap, though).
*puts on lecturer's hat*
Basically, the Fremen are also known as one branch of the Zensunni Wanderers, who follow a belief system that developed from a combination of Zen Buddhism and Sunni Islam. Considering that the events of Dune itself take place approximately 20,000 years from now, it's entirely believable that religions would blend and integrate various facets of others. Add to this the fact that after the Butlerian Jihad, it was realized that the best way to ensure that thinking machines not come back was to make them anathema... which necessitated rewriting the religious tenets people were taught to believe.
Thus the Orange Catholic Bible was hammered out at a retreat somewhere in Hawaii (information related in the Appendix of Dune). This document incorporated elements of all the major religions at that time, in order to make it accessible and relatable to the people of the Imperium. After that, millennia of generations of people were taught the tenet: "Thou shalt not make a machine in the likeness of a man's mind."
9/11 took place in 2001. The first miniseries was shown in 2000, but the second was shown in 2003. There were plenty of references to "jihad" and Leto's "Golden Path", which was to yet again remake the religion of the Imperium, which once again necessitated going out and forcing it on the people.^ Yeah
Djihad has that awful Muslim connotation, this evil terroristic 9/11 feel, that could bring unease to the mainstream American public.
Crusade, on the other hand, has the class and glamour of heroism and knights of old. It's a much more fitting term to describe the Event that lays at the foundation of our little heroes world order and adventures.
Which is more (apart from this good guys-bad guys split - and, you know, Muslim people tend to be pretty critical of the crusades), the terms are far from synonyms.
The Djihad can be an armed conflict but it can also be a personnal quest for sprirituality and self-improvement, which the universe of Dune is all about. The "Butlerian Jihad" also has an ecumenical ring to it, that is coherent with the whole thing and the later religions and the general philosophy of Dune.
I think the Saudis would love it if Holliwood acknowledged their religion as something other than the work of the devil (not to say Saudis have a monopoly on Islam). But it's a fact that the figure of the Russian has been replaced by the Arab as the bad guy of choice in many a Holliwood movie.
I don't think it's the Dune fans who can't handle the word "jihad."
The general connotation of "crusade" with "holy war" means that politicians (in Canada) using the word are suspected of violating, or intending to violate, the Charter of Rights clause that says government must not discriminate on the basis of religion.
Then the producers/writers are idiots. The Fremen religion is basically what you get if you throw Buddism and Sunni Islam into a blender, add various parts of a few other religions, allow several thousand years for it to settle down, and there you have it. An offshoot variety of Islam on a planet orbiting Canopus, millennia in the future, by a people who have been forced from planet to planet over those millennia, forever denied what they're seeking (hence the label "Zensunni Wanderers").
It should be possible for a thinking person to divorce this fictional variety of Sunni Islam from the real-history version.
It's amazing what will make some people flip out and get offended. I once got into a multiple-day argument over at TrekBBS due to one line in my sig: "Let's give it Riker. He'll eat anything!".
Anyone remember the old Life cereal TV commercial about Mikey? That's what inspired my sig, in combination with Riker's habit of eating all sorts of revolting stuff. Yet in spite of the fact that I've had this line in my sig for 13 years, it took over half that time for someone to notice and insist hysterically that I was body-shaming Jonathan Frakes, and how dare I do that?
There is a fundamental fact about Children of Dune that was weird enough in the novel, but audiences absolutely would not have accepted it on TV. The twins were played by young adult actors. But they were only supposed to be 9 years old. As Pre-Born, they were born with fully-functioning adult consciousness, so even though they were physically children, they were thinking at the level of someone in the vicinity of 30 years old (too lazy at the moment to look up how old Chani was when she gave birth to the twins).
There's a reference in the novel in which the Bene Gesserit, in an attempt to salvage the Atreides genes, want to breed the twins together - something the Fremen absolutely would not stand for, as incest is punished by death, and the dead persons' water is poured out on the desert, rather than added to the tribe's water. If the twins are only 9, that's something the audience wouldn't stand for, either.
Ditto the part of the novel about marriage. Ghanima's official husband is Leto II. But her actual husband, who was chosen for political purposes and because his genes measured up, is Farad'n Corrino (Irulan's nephew). There's a bit of dialogue near the end of the novel when Ghanima is talking to Farad'n about them having children, and he says, "You're a little young yet." She tells him, "Never say that to me again." Ghanima Atreides has an adult mind in a child's body, but the audience would only see a 9-year-old girl marrying a man more than twice her age.
When is this movie supposed to be coming out - this year or next? If it's next year, any references to "jihad" are going to set off some people because next year will be the 20th anniversary of 9/11.
Zardnaar
Deity
Blending Buddhism and Islam is a hella big no no in the Koran. I know it's sci fi but still.
Maybe some heretics made it off Old Earth and the rest died idk.
I don't think they go into a huge amount about how Zensunni came to be.
Still 34000 years can explain a lot.
Maybe some heretics made it off Old Earth and the rest died idk.
I don't think they go into a huge amount about how Zensunni came to be.
Still 34000 years can explain a lot.
yung.carl.jung
Hey Bird! I'm Morose & Lugubrious
You've got some good taste. Few people ever bring up Münchhausen when discussing Gilliam, yet it is easily one of his best films. Time Bandits, The Fisher King and Münchhausen are actual masterpieces of cinema, but don't really get the validation that Brazil or Fear and Loathing do. Personally I have similiar views on Denis. He is a great craftsman, he knows his way around the business, and he makes very good movies. But he is, imho, lacking that inexplicable spark that elevates some pieces of art over others.
I feel the exact same way about Nicolas Windign Refn, especially drive. What a gorgeous film, well edited, too, amazing use of colours, but it still seems a bit.. hollow. Maybe this is my personal cynicism of the world, but there is certainly something predictable, capitalistic, product-designey about those two aforementioned directors, and a certain lack of boldness, insanity and passion.
Last edited:
warpus
Sommerswerd asked me to change this
It's not the producers who are the idiots, it's audiences and politicians. Not even audiences really, more like all the idiots all over the planet that would react to such a word and be easily fired up about it without taking any time whatsoever to understand any of these nuances.
These days you can't even display a drawing of Mohammed without getting some jihadis on your butt trying to slaughter you and your family. You can't show ghosts or your movie will be banned in China. If you're a standup comedian and make a joke somebody doesn't like you can get "cancelled" by morons on twitter.
Unfortunately this is the world we live in, and if you're trying to make a movie to appeal to global audiences and need it to pull in enough money to warrant a sequel.. then you gotta cut some corners. In this case I'm happy that this is the only corner they cut (it seems). It's just the change of 1 word, so it's relatively minor. If it means that this movie isn't banned in muslim countries or whatever the hell would happen, then I don't mind. If they changed a big part of the plot.. then I'd be getting fired up.. but just one word, I can live with that, especially since both words pretty much mean the same thing.
It should be, but you forget that the vast majority of humans on this planet do not think like that. Many do not even think at all. To remind yourself of this just pop on twitter for 2 minutes and take a peek around.
Hmm I don't like how the video just casually mentions "and sandworms were introduced to Dune".. By whom??? From where? Why?
I can just google this, but it seems like a big oversight to not explain these details.
Last edited:
