New Game- random leader:Roosevelt
- Thread starter joe6778
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Ok, I've got some screens for you to look at, but I first need to explain some math here:
First, each whipped citizen is equal to 30 hammers (30H). So say you whip 2 citizens - that is equal to 60 free hammers instantly. 3 pop is equal to 90 free hammers instantly. (Ofc, "free" is relative term since you may whip off improved tiles, but you get the idea) The point is you can whip for massive amount of hammers instantly
Take a look at this screenshot:
As you can see you have put exactly 39 hammers into the Settler. there is a reason I wanted to get that exact amount. The reason is to setup the max OF for a 3pop settler whip without exceeding the threshold for a 3popper on a settler which is 40H without a forge or Imperialistic trait.
Why is that? Well a Settler costs 100H.
100H-30H = 70H so, at 69H or less you can 2pop a settler
100H-60H = 40H so at 39H or less you can 3pop a setter
Now look at this screen and note the info I've hovered over on the whip button. It now says 3 citizens to whip a Settler for 29H OF:
Great, so let click that ole whip button then and look what happens here:
You now see in the production bar text, that you have 129H into a 100H settler this turn. And this is why:
3pop citizens = 90H + 39H already produced = 129H
That 29H is pure free production straight from OF. But it gets better. That still does not count the total base production from current tiles going into the settler this turn. So you will likely get quite a bit more OF next turn.
Right now, I know this may be a lot to think about, but I just want you to read this and ask questions for now before proceeding. Again, I'm going to post you a link of some stuff I wrote up on whipping for you to look at and practice on your own.
First, each whipped citizen is equal to 30 hammers (30H). So say you whip 2 citizens - that is equal to 60 free hammers instantly. 3 pop is equal to 90 free hammers instantly. (Ofc, "free" is relative term since you may whip off improved tiles, but you get the idea) The point is you can whip for massive amount of hammers instantly
Take a look at this screenshot:
Spoiler :
As you can see you have put exactly 39 hammers into the Settler. there is a reason I wanted to get that exact amount. The reason is to setup the max OF for a 3pop settler whip without exceeding the threshold for a 3popper on a settler which is 40H without a forge or Imperialistic trait.
Why is that? Well a Settler costs 100H.
100H-30H = 70H so, at 69H or less you can 2pop a settler
100H-60H = 40H so at 39H or less you can 3pop a setter
Now look at this screen and note the info I've hovered over on the whip button. It now says 3 citizens to whip a Settler for 29H OF:
Spoiler :
Great, so let click that ole whip button then and look what happens here:
Spoiler :
You now see in the production bar text, that you have 129H into a 100H settler this turn. And this is why:
3pop citizens = 90H + 39H already produced = 129H
That 29H is pure free production straight from OF. But it gets better. That still does not count the total base production from current tiles going into the settler this turn. So you will likely get quite a bit more OF next turn.
Right now, I know this may be a lot to think about, but I just want you to read this and ask questions for now before proceeding. Again, I'm going to post you a link of some stuff I wrote up on whipping for you to look at and practice on your own.
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First, here is a link to a post I made for some dude way back when. That post explains some things, but also has 3 links as well to other posts I made explaining whipping and whip OF:
whippin' (fixed)
Again, take note of it and peruse at your leisure. bookmark it if you will. Practice on your own time the ideas. You don't even have to finish games. Just fire up a game and practice different things over and over. It will click
I realize it may take some time for things to sink into it, but the significance is that you are turning FOOD into massive amount of HAMMERs in a very short time. It will become even more clear next turn.
And also keep in mind that you just built a settler in 2 turns. Whipped away 3 citizens, including an unhappy one. Generally, except for the initial one poppers like monuments, you want to 2 and 3 pop whip things. No matter how many citizens you whip at a given instance, it is only 1 unhappiness for 10 turns. So whipping more citizens at once gives you more recovery time
So absorb all that, but let's play one more turn.
1) Do the whip this turn obviously
2) Open borders with everyone.
3) complete that road
oh..and when you click the whip button, switch pigs to copper and give Umma the Pigs tile for 1 turn only. (again, another blessing of city overlap
)
Ulundi - Pigs and Copper tile, if you will note, produce the same amount of hammers into a settler . YOu are not growing anyway, so all that matter is max production that turn
Umma - Pigs will let it grow a bit faster for 1 turn.
whippin' (fixed)
Again, take note of it and peruse at your leisure. bookmark it if you will. Practice on your own time the ideas. You don't even have to finish games. Just fire up a game and practice different things over and over. It will click
I realize it may take some time for things to sink into it, but the significance is that you are turning FOOD into massive amount of HAMMERs in a very short time. It will become even more clear next turn.
And also keep in mind that you just built a settler in 2 turns. Whipped away 3 citizens, including an unhappy one. Generally, except for the initial one poppers like monuments, you want to 2 and 3 pop whip things. No matter how many citizens you whip at a given instance, it is only 1 unhappiness for 10 turns. So whipping more citizens at once gives you more recovery time
So absorb all that, but let's play one more turn.
1) Do the whip this turn obviously
2) Open borders with everyone.
3) complete that road
oh..and when you click the whip button, switch pigs to copper and give Umma the Pigs tile for 1 turn only. (again, another blessing of city overlap
) Ulundi - Pigs and Copper tile, if you will note, produce the same amount of hammers into a settler . YOu are not growing anyway, so all that matter is max production that turn
Umma - Pigs will let it grow a bit faster for 1 turn.
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I'm having serious copy/paste deficiencies this evening, sorry. 
Completely posted the wrong link above. I fixed it.
Again, bookmark it and read it later on your own. It's a lot of info and you will want to read it several times and practice on your own.
Completely posted the wrong link above. I fixed it.Again, bookmark it and read it later on your own. It's a lot of info and you will want to read it several times and practice on your own.
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absolutamente!
Now take a look at this screenshot:
Spoiler :
You see me hovering next to the production bar? You see that? 44H overflow!!!
I mean come on, that is awestatic!This turn you have 44H + 6 base hammers (note i took pigs back), for 50H this turn into a 90H building. That's well over 50% production going into the Library this turn.
Now hypothetically, what if you built a worker this turn using the OF:
Spoiler :
Wait! The worker finishes in 1 turn. Why???!!! Workers cost 60H and you are producing 50H this turn. Why o Why could this be?!!!
Well, Shaka is Expansive which gives 25% faster production of Workers. (note that means strictly hammers). So basically an Exp worker costs 45H.
That is how you make use of your traits.
I like the library now though, even though the worker is obviously making better use of the hammers.
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Now let's take another hypothetical here. What if you are playing say Willie of the Dutch who is Creative. Creative trait gives double production of Library. Libraries are 90
, so that basically means they cost 45 for a Creative leader.
What does that mean in the above scenario? Well, you have 44 OF plus 6 base this turn for 50 total production. What does that mean? 1 turn Library!
, so that basically means they cost 45 for a Creative leader.What does that mean in the above scenario? Well, you have 44
OF plus 6 base this turn for 50 total production. What does that mean? 1 turn Library!Wow! Excellent session! Very informative. Thank you for taking the time to walk me through this stuff; I would have never picked this up on my own. Now I just have to try to get this all to sink in. 
I'll have to continue this game tomorrow after work if it's alright with you.
Many thanks!
I'll have to continue this game tomorrow after work if it's alright with you.
Many thanks!
Yep. I'm going to read it today.
A few questions in regard to OF whipping:
*Does the AI use this trick?
*At what point do you switch away from slavery to a different Labor civic?
*Is the trick to be as close to 30H, 60H, 90H as possible before whipping?
In regard to my game:
*What are my immediate goals? I have another settler, but my city location options are diminishing because I'm being crowded out to the west.
*It seems I'm being forced into attacking in order to expand.
*Does the AI use this trick?
*At what point do you switch away from slavery to a different Labor civic?
*Is the trick to be as close to 30H, 60H, 90H as possible before whipping?
In regard to my game:
*What are my immediate goals? I have another settler, but my city location options are diminishing because I'm being crowded out to the west.
*It seems I'm being forced into attacking in order to expand.
pigswill
fly (one day)
lymond:
Spoiler :
UnforcedError
Settler
Spoiler :
Fippy
Mycro Junkie
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Just remember that sometimes waiting for overflow can be bad.
I.e. if you need a settler quickly or AIs may settle that spot. Or any other situation where time > OF. Or if the city would do better with whipping fast cos there is nothing really important next, whip anger can fade a bit quicker too and usually regrowth as well.
I.e. if you need a settler quickly or AIs may settle that spot. Or any other situation where time > OF. Or if the city would do better with whipping fast cos there is nothing really important next, whip anger can fade a bit quicker too and usually regrowth as well.
...not to mention that when working on a settler, 1
=1, also in the overflow that it generates. Direct whipping gives over 2 per . So to be effective, whip settlers/workers immediately when you can. The reason to wait might be to put overflow into a wonder or to manage unhappiness.
=1, also in the overflow that it generates. Direct whipping gives over 2 per . So to be effective, whip settlers/workers immediately when you can. The reason to wait might be to put overflow into a wonder or to manage unhappiness.
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Alright! Joe is finally being inquisitive. Good questions! UE already gave some good answers, but I will put in my 2cents as well:
AI uses slavery, but not nearly as effectively as the human player. Generally, the main way AI uses slavery is to whip units constantly if you attack them. That is why you see them go from...say...2 Archers in a city to 4 ARchers in like 1 turn..ha
This is a good question. Often, I will use slavery for a large portion of the game. AT any point in the game it is extremely effective to get up fast armies if you plan to war.
As UE mentioned, I will use Caste system temporarily in a Golden Age to pump out Great People. If you don't know, Great People production is boosted 100% during a Golden Age. Running caste for those 10 turns or so allows you to run more scientists or whatever in your GP farm or other higher food cities, to pump out as many Great Scientists for bulbing strategies. (The Philosophical trait boost Great People Points as well, as does Parthenon and Pacifism trait in cities that run your religion - if you adopt that religion)
I highly suspect that your use of Great People is lacking in general, so that is something we will indeed address at some point soon.
Later on though, as your cities grow large and you start getting bonuses on improvements like workshops and watermills, you can start to rely more on natural production. At that point, remaining in Caste might be more valuable. Again, it's situational depending on the land and state of your empire, as well as your overall goals.
For instance, if I'm going Space Victory, I generally want to grow my cities large to work cottages, or workshops, and run as many specialists as possible under the Representation civic.
Yes, if you want to max your OF. For a given #whip you must be less than that threshold. For instance, on a 90H cost item, if you want to 3 pop whip you must be at or less than 29H into the item. If you put 30H into that item it becomes a 2 pop whip - with the least amount of OF. That's simply because a whipped citizen is 30H and as you can see, those are 30H increments.
For settlers, which are 100H cost, the thresholds are 10H (4pop), 40H (3pop), 70H (2pop). So you can't exceed 9H for 4pop, 39H for 3pop (what we just did last night), or 69H for 2pop.
Also, important thing to keep in mind is that you can't whip more than half your citizens in a given city on a give turn. So you need to be at at least size 6 for a 3 pop whip or at least size 4 for a two pop whip. And, yes, at times you can even 4 pop, 5 pop whip or whatever if you have enough citizens and there are times you may want to do that.
Also, keep in mind that certain traits, civics and buildings can alter those whip numbers. For instance, settlers are cheaper with the Imperialistic trait.
Ha...You are not being crowded out at all. One well placed city, and you secure yourself at least 9 or 10 overall cities, which is great early. You could still plan for an early war to take out the Mongols. Maybe with catapults and axes/impis. We can address that later.
This is where I would settle now. It gets Pigs immediately and also will create a seal to the East with Nob's borders, securing your land. It also will be a very nice production city with plenty of food, including lake. Jungle tiles are no concern for a long time...plenty of stuff to work early.
And here's larger view of several cities I dotmap for you:
that sugar/dye/rice city might be a stretch as KK might settle it first, so no fret. You have plenty of cities early on to settle.
AI uses slavery, but not nearly as effectively as the human player. Generally, the main way AI uses slavery is to whip units constantly if you attack them. That is why you see them go from...say...2 Archers in a city to 4 ARchers in like 1 turn..ha
This is a good question. Often, I will use slavery for a large portion of the game. AT any point in the game it is extremely effective to get up fast armies if you plan to war.
As UE mentioned, I will use Caste system temporarily in a Golden Age to pump out Great People. If you don't know, Great People production is boosted 100% during a Golden Age. Running caste for those 10 turns or so allows you to run more scientists or whatever in your GP farm or other higher food cities, to pump out as many Great Scientists for bulbing strategies. (The Philosophical trait boost Great People Points as well, as does Parthenon and Pacifism trait in cities that run your religion - if you adopt that religion)
I highly suspect that your use of Great People is lacking in general, so that is something we will indeed address at some point soon.
Later on though, as your cities grow large and you start getting bonuses on improvements like workshops and watermills, you can start to rely more on natural production. At that point, remaining in Caste might be more valuable. Again, it's situational depending on the land and state of your empire, as well as your overall goals.
For instance, if I'm going Space Victory, I generally want to grow my cities large to work cottages, or workshops, and run as many specialists as possible under the Representation civic.
Yes, if you want to max your OF. For a given #whip you must be less than that threshold. For instance, on a 90H cost item, if you want to 3 pop whip you must be at or less than 29H into the item. If you put 30H into that item it becomes a 2 pop whip - with the least amount of OF. That's simply because a whipped citizen is 30H and as you can see, those are 30H increments.
For settlers, which are 100H cost, the thresholds are 10H (4pop), 40H (3pop), 70H (2pop). So you can't exceed 9H for 4pop, 39H for 3pop (what we just did last night), or 69H for 2pop.
Also, important thing to keep in mind is that you can't whip more than half your citizens in a given city on a give turn. So you need to be at at least size 6 for a 3 pop whip or at least size 4 for a two pop whip. And, yes, at times you can even 4 pop, 5 pop whip or whatever if you have enough citizens and there are times you may want to do that.
Also, keep in mind that certain traits, civics and buildings can alter those whip numbers. For instance, settlers are cheaper with the Imperialistic trait.
Ha...You are not being crowded out at all. One well placed city, and you secure yourself at least 9 or 10 overall cities, which is great early. You could still plan for an early war to take out the Mongols. Maybe with catapults and axes/impis. We can address that later.
This is where I would settle now. It gets Pigs immediately and also will create a seal to the East with Nob's borders, securing your land. It also will be a very nice production city with plenty of food, including lake. Jungle tiles are no concern for a long time...plenty of stuff to work early.
Spoiler :
And here's larger view of several cities I dotmap for you:
Spoiler :
that sugar/dye/rice city might be a stretch as KK might settle it first, so no fret. You have plenty of cities early on to settle.
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This is a good point, Joe, to keep in mind. I did explain it several times in that link I gave you. Whipping is not all about just getting large amount of hammer overflow.
The point of that exercise though was to show you the potential of whip overflow. However, sometimes you just want to get that settler or working out asap. This is especially important on higher levels as the AIs expand much faster than on Noble.
However, maxing whip OF and managing it is a great way to turn food into hammers and get large chunks of hammers to complete other stuff faster like wonders. Stone or marble or Industrious trait will boost that OF even more.
But, at times, you whip things fast to get stuff quickly like a big army. Just remember though, you generally always point to put at least 1 turn of production into an item before whipping as there is a penalty to whipping on Turn 0 of production. (Again, keep reading and practicing the stuff I gave you in those links)
There was one other important point I wanted to get across to you last night that we did not get to. The whole exercise was to show you the benefits of whip overflow. However, there was another important thing you learned or achieved, but maybe did not realize it. That is, you actually looked into your city screen and analyzed the information it provided. You also managed the tiles your citizens worked and used tile sharing between cities. This is important to keep in mind. This type of micro will really improve your game. Yeah, as your empire gets much larger and the game progresses, you don't have to micro so much. However, it really pays off in the early game and leads to a snowball effect later on.
Just remember, this is a strategy game and a rather complex one compared to some others, so a bit of analysis and planning is always good, as opposed to just going through the motions.
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