New Hotfix Version (12-15)

[CrabHelmet]

Quick strawpoll in light of the fact that all yields are treated even, but you need 3x more science than culture per era:

Please vote.

Hmm. I don't think that 3 times as much Science being needed as Culture implies that the AI needs a third as much Culture. We're not concerned with the 'nominal' cost of techs/policies, we're concerned with their 'real' cost. To see what I mean: suppose that there was only one tech, needing 1000 Science, and one policy, needing 10 Culture. However, there are two buildings, one which produces 1 Science per turn, and the other 10 Culture per turn. Here, it takes 1000 turns to research the tech and 1 turn to research the policy. Additional Science yields are clearly more valuable than Culture yields (in fact, additional Culture has absolutely no value whatsoever); but your system sees Culture as more valuable than Science because you need ten times as many units of Science.

This is a grossly exaggerated example, but VP actually does a much less caricatured example of this. The first Culture building, the Monument, produces 2 Culture. The first Science building, the Council, produces 1 Science. Once you have your first Policy, you have a consistent Cultural income. Your Science income from non-building sources is often quite limited.

I think the 'real' exchange rate of Culture to Science is a little closer to 1:2. That's only my intuition, though. To find out what it actually is, you'd have take the average Culture per turn of a Civ aiming at Cultural victory, and compare it to the average Science per turn of a Civ aiming at Science victory.

 

[tu_79]

I think the 'real' exchange rate of Culture to Science is a little closer to 1:2.

Is it right? When we are playing, we can focus on science, culture or have it balanced. When a player has science and culture balanced, what are the numbers ratio? 1:2? Also, we need to take into account that the AI is also producing science and culture by itself, so the handicap is an extra that fools us into thinking that the AI played better. We can agree that right now, with the examples you gave us, AI is getting more culture than science, but the right numbers could be anything. If your guts are saying it should be half, then perhaps this is the best answer... for now.

 

[CrabHelmet]

As I said, I don't know if it's right. The exchange rate will be variable across turns, though - in the very early game, Culture might be worth a *lot* of Sciences because of how valuable early Policies are, whereas in the late game Culture might be worth *less* Sciences because you want to try and slingshot Sciences. There's no fixed rate. At best, you could have an average, by observing a lot of games and comparing the total amount of Culture expended in a Cultural Victory, the total amount of Science expended in a Science victory, and comparing the average turn at which each Victory was achieved, to have an average income/turn for victory for both, and adjusting from there.

My gut says that's about 1:2, but there are better players than me here. Depends what @CrazyG says, for example.

 

[tu_79]

in the very early game, Culture might be worth a *lot* of Sciences because of how valuable early Policies are, whereas in the late game Culture might be worth *less* Sciences because you want to try and slingshot Sciences

Just what I was thinking.

 

[CrabHelmet]

So does that mean I shouldn't play this version until this bug gets worked out, since the A.I. will continue to snowball and there's no way I'll be able to compete?

It's only noticeable at Immortal and above. Depends what difficulty you normally play.

 

[ElliotS]

Let's solve the ratio argument quickly.

Strawpoll.

It's just to start testing anyway. We can change it if it's wrong.

 

[Animorganimate]

It's only noticeable at Immortal and above. Depends what difficulty you normally play.

Okay then. That's not me. I'll continue to lose fair and square.

Does anyone have a modpack for 12-15 they wouldn't mind sharing? If it include the Tectonic map script, that would be a huge bonus. I tried making one, but I don't think it was loading correctly. When I get home, I'll try again, but I figured one of you that knows what you're doing might be better at it.

 

[Gokudo01]

It's only noticeable at Immortal and above. Depends what difficulty you normally play.

I dont think so ,the bonus trigger is the same at all difficulties. Just smaller in emperor and in lower level.
And ai doesnt get any big discount (unit, growth, improvement speed, building, maintenance, happiness) with prince and lower difficulties.

But the handicap instant yield are slowly incremented over difficulties.
0 1 2 3 4 5 6 and 7 for deity
So with the formula, it gives 0 6 12 18 24 30 36 42 fpcgs in ancient /classical era
So unless you are playing settler, you are affected by handicap formula

 

[Gokudo01]

@Gazebo It seems that the bonus is given when the 1st city is not yet recognized by the game as the capital. I wrote few posts ago that the only possibility is when isCapital() returns 0.

Strange nobody quoted your post because it explains how ai gets the first policies so fast in highest difficulties

 

[tu_79]

Also, all other bonuses are given to Player under this condition:
if (MOD_BALANCE_CORE_DIFFICULTY && !isMinorCiv() && !isHuman() && getNumCities() > 1)
So, actually until you settle 2nd city, there shouldn't be any. Well, idk if this is as intended, but that's in the code.

I was thinking about getNumCities(). I think this gives the number of cities in the map, not the number of player's cities. So, after the first second city in the world is settled, AI receives handicaps. That's always.

EDIT. But what is the intended function of that part? To not receive yields for the capital settling?

 

[Owlbebach]

FYI its very easy to observe AI if you have Modpack. You can start LAN multiplayer game with AI and yourself, set desired difficulty for yourself, and leave one slot as an observer. After that load initial autosave and switch yourself to observer slot. You will see that all AIs get bonus yields for settling 1st city and they all finish Shrine 1st turn and Monument 2nd turn (for Deity). I always knew that AI gets yields on settling first city and i thought it is intended.

 

[MorphBer]

Don't really get why you just use ige to check the AIs POV each turn

 

[Infixo]

FYI its very easy to observe AI if you have Modpack. You can start LAN multiplayer game with AI and yourself, set desired difficulty for yourself, and leave one slot as an observer

Or you can just use Firefuner and see everything in any game.

 

[ElliotS]

I always knew that AI gets yields on settling first city and i thought it is intended.

Not intended.

The whole reason crazy ideas like free pottery were being tossed around was because they got such a huge boost from their first city and finished everything within a turn or two.

So the most elegant solution was to not give them bonuses for their first city and make the handicap curve balance stuff out.

 

[ElliotS]

It seems people want to start with a 2:1 science to culture ratio. That's fine. My proposed changelog:

• Fix bonus triggering on capital
• AI gets 50% of iHandicap as culture
• Digs are not counted for Handicap bonuses (leads too easily to snowballs)
• EDIT: Also Shrine no longer receives discount for AI (like wonders)

 

[tu_79]

Still getNumCities() >1
If it returns the number of cities in the game, then it's plainly wrong.
Even if it returns the number of cities of a given player, it only kicks when the player has settled 2 cities. So it's hurting a lot those civs that wait for their second settler (and Venice) or have troubles with barbs.

 

[ElliotS]

Still getNumCities() >1
If it returns the number of cities in the game, then it's plainly wrong.
Even if it returns the number of cities of a given player, it only kicks when the player has settled 2 cities. So it's hurting a lot those civs that wait for their second settler (and Venice) or have troubles with barbs.

Why not just check that it's not the first 5 turns? No events should trigger by that point anyways.

 

[tu_79]

Why not just check that it's not the first 5 turns? No events should trigger by that point anyways.

And no AI will wait 5 turns for settling capital. I like it.

 

[Infixo]

Okay then. That's not me. I'll continue to lose fair and square.

If someone wants to get rid of that starting bonus (until proper fix), there’s a workaround.
1. Change ABC values to 0.
2. Start a game, play for 2 turns (sometimes AI settles capital on 2nd turn).
3. Save game, exit.
4. Change ABC to desired values.
5. Load the game and continue playing normally.

 

[Infixo]

It seems people want to start with a 2:1 science to culture ratio. That's fine. My proposed changelog:

• Fix bonus triggering on capital
• AI gets 50% of iHandicap as culture
• Digs are not counted for Handicap bonuses (leads too easily to snowballs)
• EDIT: Also Shrine no longer receives discount for AI (like wonders)

What about distance modifier for TR? Poll maybe? There were voices to either remove it or lower the cap (50%, 25%) Either way, seems that current 75% needs tweaking.
Edit. And fix for internal routes, which shouldn’t be affected.