New Hotfix Version (12-15)

[Gazebo]

Great solution. The problem is just that if you get 20 cities with banks, you earn too much gold, enough for basically infinite army and it destroys all poverty, eliminating one of the biggest problems of building such a massive empire

I'd rather just have it affect local buildings. Safer to balance (and no new code).

G

 

[RAuer2]

Get over yourself.

I gave you feedback and I'm happy to give you more but you are starting to come over as pretty arrogant at times.

I don't think that asking for specific/detailed feedback is arrogant.

The very last thing you should do is shut up (from your post earlier in the thread). I am a Prince player and I understand, I think, where that feeling comes from, but this is not a "Deity only club" thing. The more helpful our feedback is, the more likely G (or anyone else) will be able to step in and provide information.​

Think of it this way. You work in tech support and a customer calls and says "the program doesn't work" with no other information. It isn't very helpful without details such as an error message and what it said, program version, type of computer, what was clicked just before the problem happened, and so on.

To bring this back to VP, posting "the end game has too much gold" is not nearly as detailed and helpful as something about like this:

"My last game was Germany. I went Progress/Statecraft/Industry and my policies/ideologies are [Listed Here]. At turn XXX I was making YYYY gold per turn. This amount of gold per turn seems kind of crazy and I am not sure if this is working right. I'm can't tell where all the gold is coming from, but I see a lot of gold coming from K; is this normal? I've attached a save file if anyone wants to take a look. My VP version is XXXX and here are the mods I was using: [List of mods]."

This tells G (and everyone else) what is going wrong, perhaps how it impacted your game, and why you think it might be a problem. Attaching a save and listing mods would allow anyone on the forum to load your game, take a look, and offer some feedback. If the only mods in use were VP, then it makes it even easier for someone to help since they don't have to hunt down other mods and perhaps match their versions as well.

Does that help clarify?

EDIT: Saw your follow-up post after I posted this, so apologies if this post is covering a resolved issue.

 

[nekokon]

Not sure if this's the right place, but

Happy new year everyone !

 

[Deadstarre]

And I already posted my opinion, the specialists are the problem.

wern't specialists just nerfed across the board to take lesser yield bumps from tech than they did previously? did it make no difference on the 6 tiles worked per 30 pop city?

 

[BiteInTheMark]

Did someone noticed too, if you start in later games, you start with settlers instead of pioneer or colonizer? And also start with only 1 military cap?

 

[tu_79]

I don't think that asking for specific/detailed feedback is arrogant.

The very last thing you should do is shut up (from your post earlier in the thread). I am a Prince player and I understand, I think, where that feeling comes from, but this is not a "Deity only club" thing. The more helpful our feedback is, the more likely G (or anyone else) will be able to step in and provide information.​

Think of it this way. You work in tech support and a customer calls and says "the program doesn't work" with no other information. It isn't very helpful without details such as an error message and what it said, program version, type of computer, what was clicked just before the problem happened, and so on.

To bring this back to VP, posting "the end game has too much gold" is not nearly as detailed and helpful as something about like this:

"My last game was Germany. I went Progress/Statecraft/Industry and my policies/ideologies are [Listed Here]. At turn XXX I was making YYYY gold per turn. This amount of gold per turn seems kind of crazy and I am not sure if this is working right. I'm can't tell where all the gold is coming from, but I see a lot of gold coming from K; is this normal? I've attached a save file if anyone wants to take a look. My VP version is XXXX and here are the mods I was using: [List of mods]."

This tells G (and everyone else) what is going wrong, perhaps how it impacted your game, and why you think it might be a problem. Attaching a save and listing mods would allow anyone on the forum to load your game, take a look, and offer some feedback. If the only mods in use were VP, then it makes it even easier for someone to help since they don't have to hunt down other mods and perhaps match their versions as well.

Does that help clarify?

EDIT: Saw your follow-up post after I posted this, so apologies if this post is covering a resolved issue.

Actually, most balancing issues begin with a rather generic statement. A feeling. Then some players think about this more thoroughly and give some potential specific culprits. Most are discarded for being too specific to a map setting or just extreme cases. But other ones are considered troublesome for more players. A consensus of some sort is reached. Then people start discussing on possible solutions, and deity players offer more tuned up values. Finally, a developer, if there is enough interest in the issue, and the solutions are feasible, will fix it, within their capabilities and respecting the mod policies. So sometimes the solution developers come to is not the same as the players proposed ones.

This process works well, as far as I can tell. There are only a few rules : never tell Gazebo what he has to do, he doesn't like it. Be always respectful. If the other players don't agree with your point of view, you need to prove your points with facts.
Also, we're in late development phase, so no new code, mechanics or content. Only tuning and balancing.

 

[XplosiveLun]

Great solution. The problem is just that if you get 20 cities with banks, you earn too much gold, enough for basically infinite army and it destroys all poverty, eliminating one of the biggest problems of building such a massive empire

You see, what's great and unique about bank is it buffs buildings outside the city. The problem is, unlike Guilds, its effect grows exponentially. Now that comes to my mind, may be increasing the cost of bank according to the number of cities / population / banks built, etc. like how national wonders scale. The expected result is that it encourages building banks in key cities, require wide empires to invest more, good for tall or wide empires.

 

[hokath]

You know I only just noticed that the Bank effect is empire wide. I had a market in a new city giving 20-odd gold and was absolutely mystified. Indeed, this seems like a problem with a simple fix (i.e. make the yields local like every other common building)

 

[Infixo]

You know I only just noticed that the Bank effect is empire wide. I had a market in a new city giving 20-odd gold and was absolutely mystified. Indeed, this seems like a problem with a simple fix (i.e. make the yields local like every other common building)

Or make the bank to increase yields only in cities that have a trade route with it. To encourage for more internal TRs.

 

[Gokudo01]

wern't specialists just nerfed across the board to take lesser yield bumps from tech than they did previously? did it make no difference on the 6 tiles worked per 30 pop city?

Many people dont play on the last version

 

[CrazyG]

Can we change Deity so that city states don't have the extra warrior? In my current game I choose authority after scouting almost the entire continent and there were acutally 0 camps revealed, city states clear anything that appears within 2 tiles of their city, which dramatically trims the number of barbarians. Its turn 80 and I haven't seen a single barb since my initial scouting

 

[ElliotS]

Can we change Deity so that city states don't have the extra warrior? In my current game I choose authority after scouting almost the entire continent and there were acutally 0 camps revealed, city states clear anything that appears within 2 tiles of their city, which dramatically trims the number of barbarians. Its turn 80 and I haven't seen a single barb since my initial scouting

My question is why they start with any units at all. What are they building even? I'm testing starting them with 0 bonus units and have yet to see any problem. (Also I still can't demand tribute early on current system.)

 

[CrazyG]

My question is why they start with any units at all. What are they building even? I'm testing starting them with 0 bonus units and have yet to see any problem. (Also I still can't demand tribute early on current system.)

You are probably right, they end up with so many units that you cannot walk past them at all

 

[Deadstarre]

Actually, most balancing issues begin with a rather generic statement. A feeling. Then some players think about this more...

there is no shortage of science articles pointing to the relevance of human intuition, that it often pre-empts empirical data is nothing new. It would be a mistake if people started implying the feelings of a games players are worthless just because they dont always come with hard numbers behind them.

 

[Gazebo]

there is no shortage of science articles pointing to the relevance of human intuition, that it often pre-empts empirical data is nothing new. It would be a mistake if people started implying the feelings of a games players are worthless just because they dont always come with hard numbers behind them.

Sigh. You know precisely the kind of feedback I'm asking for, yet you and others continue with this kind of stuff. Meet the mod team halfway by bringing up specific examples that you achieved through the magic and wonder of human intuition. I have neither the time nor the patience to do all the hunting myself.

G

 

[Stalker0]

there is no shortage of science articles pointing to the relevance of human intuition, that it often pre-empts empirical data is nothing new. It would be a mistake if people started implying the feelings of a games players are worthless just because they dont always come with hard numbers behind them.

There is also a wealth of science showing how flawed human judgement and feelings can be. We are biased creatures that are not always great at rational observation.

But regardless, G does wat more work than you do on this mod. Just respect his wishes.

 

[Gothic_Empire]

G

This was a roller-coaster of emotions.

 

[IcyAngel]

A list of targeted suggestions to reduce yields creep mid-late game:

Spoiler :

Barracks: +2 science down to +1 science

Aqueduct: 15% food carried over down to 10% food
Baths: +10% culture in city during GA down to +7%; 1 gold maintenance up to 2

Armory: +2 science down to +1
Chancery: 2 gold maintenance up to 3 gold maintenance
Stable: +3 production down to +2 production
University: 2 gold maintenance to 3 gold maintenance

Constabulary: 3 gold maintenance up to 4 gold maintenance
Grocer: +3 food down to +2 food
Opera House: +10% culture down to +7% culture; 3 gold maintenance up to 4
Windmill: +2 food to Grocers and Granaries down to +1 food

Factory: +2 gold to engineeer specialists and +2 production to merchant specialists down to +1 each; +3 production down to +2 production
Hotel: 4 gold maintenance up to 5
Military Academy: 4 gold maintenance up to 5
Museum: 4 gold maintenance up to 5
Public School: 4 gold maintenance up to 5; +3 science per turn down to +2
Train Station: +25% production down to +20% production
Zoo: 4 gold maintenance up to 5 gold maintenance

Broadcast Tower: +1 culture and +1 tourism per 5 citizens down to per 4 citizens each; 6 gold maintenance up to 7 gold maintenance
Coal Plant: 3 coal produced down to 2 coal produced
Hospital: 5 gold maintenance up to 6 gold maintenance
Research Lab: +4 science from Hospitals, Factories and Medical labs down to +3; +33% increased Great Scientists rate down to +25%; 6 gold maintenance up to 7 gold maintenance
Stock Exchange: +3 gold per turn down to +1 (or add 2 maintenance)

I don't really know enough about the later eras to comment (and G has commented that later eras buildings need to be a bit OP to generate a return on investment quickly).

I lowered the main yields of the plainly overpowered buildings (notably all the science and culture buildings except for the first two eras when yields are more sensitive), and for the rest I either increased the gold maintenance or lowered the yields slightly if it didn't make the building bland. I didn't touch the defense buildings (castles, arsenals, etc.) because these buildings are too important to be crippled with more maintenance in case you are doing badly.

I increased the maintenance for buildings that weren't too strong but niche, so that you had an incentive not to build them everywhere - zoos and hotels, for example.

In the end this is very premilinary, just a sketch; perhaps we want more general changes (+1 maintenance to every building of every era; -1 science to everything that gives science, etc.) too. This is more to spark discussion.

(I used this wiki page: http://civ-5-cbp.wikia.com/wiki/Buildings though be wary that not everything it states is up-to-date.

 

[Stalker0]

I wouldn't lower the growth/food of buildings, I think growth is fine right now. I also think the Opera House is Fine.

I wouldn't change the Constabulary, I already "hate" to build that building with its current maintenance, don't penalize me anymore please.

I think the stable change is fine, the barracks/armory change is good (and even that alone makes a dent in the science production).

 

[Bromar1]

A list of targeted suggestions to reduce yields creep mid-late game:

Spoiler :

Barracks: +2 science down to +1 science

Aqueduct: 15% food carried over down to 10% food
Baths: +10% culture in city during GA down to +7%; 1 gold maintenance up to 2

Armory: +2 science down to +1
Chancery: 2 gold maintenance up to 3 gold maintenance
Stable: +3 production down to +2 production
University: 2 gold maintenance to 3 gold maintenance

Constabulary: 3 gold maintenance up to 4 gold maintenance
Grocer: +3 food down to +2 food
Opera House: +10% culture down to +7% culture; 3 gold maintenance up to 4
Windmill: +2 food to Grocers and Granaries down to +1 food

Factory: +2 gold to engineeer specialists and +2 production to merchant specialists down to +1 each; +3 production down to +2 production
Hotel: 4 gold maintenance up to 5
Military Academy: 4 gold maintenance up to 5
Museum: 4 gold maintenance up to 5
Public School: 4 gold maintenance up to 5; +3 science per turn down to +2
Train Station: +25% production down to +20% production
Zoo: 4 gold maintenance up to 5 gold maintenance

Broadcast Tower: +1 culture and +1 tourism per 5 citizens down to per 4 citizens each; 6 gold maintenance up to 7 gold maintenance
Coal Plant: 3 coal produced down to 2 coal produced
Hospital: 5 gold maintenance up to 6 gold maintenance
Research Lab: +4 science from Hospitals, Factories and Medical labs down to +3; +33% increased Great Scientists rate down to +25%; 6 gold maintenance up to 7 gold maintenance
Stock Exchange: +3 gold per turn down to +1 (or add 2 maintenance)

I don't really know enough about the later eras to comment (and G has commented that later eras buildings need to be a bit OP to generate a return on investment quickly).

I lowered the main yields of the plainly overpowered buildings (notably all the science and culture buildings except for the first two eras when yields are more sensitive), and for the rest I either increased the gold maintenance or lowered the yields slightly if it didn't make the building bland. I didn't touch the defense buildings (castles, arsenals, etc.) because these buildings are too important to be crippled with more maintenance in case you are doing badly.

I increased the maintenance for buildings that weren't too strong but niche, so that you had an incentive not to build them everywhere - zoos and hotels, for example.

In the end this is very premilinary, just a sketch; perhaps we want more general changes (+1 maintenance to every building of every era; -1 science to everything that gives science, etc.) too. This is more to spark discussion.

(I used this wiki page: http://civ-5-cbp.wikia.com/wiki/Buildings though be wary that not everything it states is up-to-date.

I agree that barracks and armories should go down to +1 science. Baths don't need to be nerfed however. They are rarely a priority.
Maintenance cost increases might help with late game gold inflation but I think it would be better to lower gold income in general as it would be easier to balance