[R&F] New Leaks (new civ Cree, new alt leader Chandragupta Maurya of India)

[steveg700]

I guess I'll say this one more time, but then I'm done.

I object to your framing of the issue.

If Trajan is the Roman leader, isn't that displacing a Caesar? How about Genghis? Don't you think he's displacing Kublai? Frederick Barbarossa-- haven't seen anyone complain about him, but he's certainly displacing the traditional Bismarck. Any leader that's picked is "displacing" tens-to-hundreds of others.

Well, yes, they are displacing other candidates. And in some cases, there can be debate of the decision that went into such a process. I've seen folks lament not getting Kublai instead of Genghis last week. I think, though, a person can safely make the case for Genghis as the leader, and for reasons that have nothing to do with his identity profile. Good discussion to have.

Finally, your assertion that Seondeok is in the game because she is a token representative is-- to be That Insufferable Internet Geek-- laughable by your own logic. The process you describe isn't even a little quota-filling! Making it a goal to include interesting female leaders in a game isn't saying they have to be picked from any particular civ or even in any particular number! It just means that when selecting a leader they might have to look past the same 2-3 obvious picks. Which is good to do anyway. Seondeok was a fascinating and yes, Important leader of her period. Ask the many people on this forum who actually know more than the little I do about Korean history to hear more-- there's been plenty of info around if you're uninformed! Whether we can make a little side by side list of "accomplishments" (Seondeok built 7 big roads! Sejong 8! +1 infrastructure for Sejong!) is an absolutely ludicrous analysis that only comes up when women leaders are picked, and you have to know this to be the case.

Now see, how can this discussion be draining for you? Given that your go-to response is to dismiss any point of view that doesn't align with a unilateralist "no-person-can-credibly-disagree-with-me" position as ridiculous, laughable, ludicrous, and other words synonymous with fun times, you gotta be have a rollicking good time. My impression is that there's no real fatigue or laughter influencing your behavior; I think you've fallen into the easy rut of snorting through your nose and raving derisively, and then acting like it's the other person's exasperating tactics driving you onto the low road. Maybe I'm wrong and I'm just catching you on a bad day. I'll just keep working the golden rule as best I can.

Moderator Action: Please make your own argument, do not attack those you disagree with personally. This is trolling. leif
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889

At any rate, like I said before, I don't think you'll find any tremendous objection to Victoria, Isabella, or Cleopatra any more than you'll get a debate over Genghis versus Kublai. Those names have cache in their own right. The obvious picks are obvious for a reason. I think I can gather from your harangue that you're not familiar enough with Seonduk and Sejong to weigh the two, and do indeed wish to imply it's so subjective of a choice that it might as well be a toss-up, but when it comes to Sejong versus just about anyone else in Korean history, it does go beyond just "one more road". He invented the Korean language, for instance. Pretty good little tick to have in his column.

So, either the contention is that we select a Seonduk because that's a leader who is sufficiently distinguished to eclipse an obvious pick like Sejong, and that begs the question of what makes her distinct. I don't expect you to provide an answer--you'll just resent and attack the question in some sort of straw man that will no doubt draw applause--but I am at least articulating for someone out there why there is indeed room for reasonable discussion of selection based on merit.

This is the best comment I've read in a long time on these forums. And should serve to put this ridiculous discussion to rest, imo.

It won't, of course, because all you're applauding is tub-thumping. And while tub-thumping is very satisfying when it lines up with one's own POV, it's not something that ever closes divides or puts discussion to rest. Don't kid yourself. It's not dousing other people's reckless flames. It's dumping a big ol' drum of gasoline. So, this will keep being a topic for discussion, and as long as it is discussed in a civil manner, open-minded people should welcome rather than try to shut it down.

 

[Arianrhod]

Yeah I wouldn't exactly call Boudicca an A+ leader by any stretch of the imagination. There's certainly a place for underdogs, but it's telling that we usually only go that far down for one gender unless it's Gandhi. You want to know why people don't give males the same criticism? Many people may be sexist, yes, but it's also simply because males don't usually get the same treatment. The fact that you're having to cite Genghis as an example as an 'underdog' is pretty telling; Trajan is still considered a great emperor, Teddy's still usually considered one of the more iconic presidents, and so forth. You don't have to go very far down for most of them.

Most female leaders are subject to disproportionate criticism, that much is true. Anyone criticizing (for example) Maria Theresa or Gitarja is just being dumb and you can probably use that as a safe litmus test. But playing devil's advocate here, it does kinda suck a little to have the Greeks finally get freed from Macedon only to get Tamar-of-Gorgo'd (though they also got Pericles, anyhow) for seemingly no reason, or again, for the already-tacky Celts to get stuck with freaking Boudicca every other game because she's the archetypal strong and tough woman. It shouldn't really come as much of a surprise that people see things like these, find one or two more choices they're not satisfied with, and then use it as a generalized excuse against the entire game/series: the human mind is regrettably predisposed to find patterns at all times, and that ultimately just leads to this, especially considering the age we live in now.

Without such dud leaders, the remaining female leaders would actually look even better because it would be even clearer that they got there on their own merits. And I think that's why it's a little important to employ at least a little bit of quality control, I guess is what I'm saying.

And people do complain about male leaders btw, just go a few threads up to see the "ding dong Gandhi is dead" party or try to defend Attila in an Elimination game. You'll also occasionally see people trying to argue that Gilgamesh (or Hiawatha) are as fictional/ized as Dido and Tomyris, although I'm pretty sure we can at least assume he existed. And there are no shortage of people who want Phillip dead solely so we can have Izzy back. Even the game itself takes it upon itself to portray Phillip and Cyrus negatively despite them being decent leaders! You just don't see it because you either tune it out to suit your narrative or you simply don't notice it because there's no need for it to happen as much because male leaders just flat-out don't get the same preferential treatment most of the time.

There can exist multiple double-standards -- both within the audience (those members of it who blindly approve of, or blindly hate, all female leaders solely by virtue of their gender) and within the developers (who can shoot for female leaders even well beyond the point where it makes sense, and I'm not even talking Seondeok here), and yes, it's entirely possible for all three to be issues if they get far enough out of hand. I have no strong opinion regarding the last group yet (as I'm generally okay with moooost of the choices in 6), but I certainly do have strong opinions regarding the first two.

 

[evanaurora]

Well, yes, they are displacing other candidates. And in some cases, there can be debate of the decision that went into such a process. I've seen folks lament not getting Kublai instead of Genghis last week. I think, though, a person can safely make the case for Genghis as the leader, and for reasons that have nothing to do with his identity profile. Good discussion to have.

and so forth.

Oh God. Okay, yes, I said I was done with this discussion, but I guess I'm the fool on the internet who can't let things go.

This is the entire point. Debate all you want on the merits of an individual pick! I love seeing the historical arguments over Catherine de Medici or Gandhi, for example-- should a person who didn't technically rule but had a lot of political clout/power be put in a civ leader position?!? It's genuinely a matter of opinion and debate!!!!!!

what ISN'T debating the merits of a leader is yelling hur dur gender police every time a woman leader is announced. you can't possibly expect the devs to keep to your chosen list of like five acceptable Token Females. that's-- for the umpteenth time-- boring.

If you haven't looked into the case for Seondeok on her own merits, that isn't my fault. It's out there. Maybe you disagree. Whatever. But that doesn't mean those saying "I think it's cool that Seondeok is in the game" are speaking from a place of ignorance. And I don't appreciate your insinuation that I don't know who Sejong is. I was framing the "accomplishment" argument in a parodic way to show how I see it--- what one considers an accomplishment is an inherently subjective thing that's open to interpretation. Even if you say it's just "well known" or w/e, only choosing the Biggest Names is going to make for a very repetitive franchise.

now I really am done-- keep discussing this if you will but stop quoting me, please. I get that I'm rising to the bait here but your tone has veered into the wildly condescending and I'm not interested in further debate.

Moderator Action: Please do not answer, it only prolongs the incivility in this thread. Please discuss if you wish, but do so without attacking other posters. It is trolling. leif
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889

This is the best comment I've read in a long time on these forums. And should serve to put this ridiculous discussion to rest, imo.

D'awww...thanks. I mean, it certainly won't, because the internet is a wild wild world where somehow "there should be more than the same 3 female leaders" is a political statement (???), but thanks nonetheless.

 

[ferretbacon]

Does anyone else think it's a bit odd that 2K China had access to two preloaded First Looks as early as Saturday morning? Is there even an outside chance that we get the Cree video this week as well?

 

[Eagle Pursuit]

Does anyone else think it's a bit odd that 2K China had access to two preloaded First Looks as early as Saturday morning? Is there even an outside chance that we get the Cree video this week as well?

They are probably preloaded for both holiday weeks.

 

[ferretbacon]

They are probably preloaded for both holiday weeks.

Ah, you're probably right. I don't get that excited about New Year's. Forgot about it to be honest.

 

[stealth_nsk]

Does anyone else think it's a bit odd that 2K China had access to two preloaded First Looks as early as Saturday morning? Is there even an outside chance that we get the Cree video this week as well?

I think those 2 videos were prepared for automated uploading on Christmas/NY vacation. So, it's likely the second one will be next week.

 

[Ivan Hunger]

In addition to that, the UI also enjoys adjacent gold and food bonus from Luxury resource and Bonus resource, repectively.

I just realized, does this mean that the Cree loved to eat delicious copper and stone?

 

[Mr Jon of Cheam]

This is the best comment I've read in a long time on these forums. And should serve to put this ridiculous discussion to rest, imo.

Amen.

@evanaurora

 

[God of Kings]

I just realized, does this mean that the Cree loved to eat delicious copper and stone?

Don't forget the ever-so delicious marbled marble.

No wonder why Canada doesn't have any world-renowned large-scale marble quarries. The Cree ate all of them. Only smaller marble quarries remain.

Yes, I know that Marble is a luxury resource, not a bonus resource, despite marble being a beautiful stone.

 

[God of Kings]

Pinging @bite to close

Please lock this thread. Cree is revealed.

 

[bite]

Pinging @bite to close

Please lock this thread. Cree is revealed.

Moderator Action: Thread Closed