New NESes, ideas, development, etc

On a slightly different note, what do people think of the following as a ruleset?

Spoiler :
Game Background:

This game is set in the Year of Our Lord 1450 in an alternate world where Catholic Church became less centralized as a result of the Council of Basel. Reading the complete background is not required, as I have tried to make the nation backgrounds give you enough information for playing the game. However, for those who are interested, the complete timeline can be found in the following areas:

Chapter 1 Description of Council of Basel/Florence
Chapter 2 Aftermath of Council of Basel, Anti-Ottoman Crusade Begins
Chapter 3 Anti-Ottoman Crusade, 1443-1444
Chapter 4: The Italian Wars of 1442-1446


Game Philosophy:

The philosophy behind this game is that there are more things to do in a country besides go to war. As such, internal politics and spending can be just as important as external wars. If, however, you find internal politics boring, you are free to ignore them, as long as you understand there may be consequences to those actions. To reward focusing on internal affairs, I will devote a large part of the update to internal intrigues and other non-war goodness, so that the player feels they are being “rewarded” for their internal play. To balance it out, so that players aren’t writing books for orders, I will not penalize any person for “sub-par” military orders. The only things absolutely needed in military orders are the beginning positions of your armies, their movements, and your war goals. Your generals will figure everything else out. My overriding principle throughout is that people will not be penalized for the length of their orders, though they may be penalized for the content of their orders.


Stats

State’s Name:
Available Spending:
Culture:
Nobles’ Opinion:
Commoner’s Opinion:
Army (Leadership/Troop Quality):
Navy (Leadership/Troop Quality):


Available Spending

The economy of the world was indelibly marked by the series of plagues that left few untouched. As a result of the massive death tolls, production, especially of food, started to outstrip demand. This caused the standard of living to slightly rise, as prices became low enough that even the poorest could afford their basic necessities. Because of the lowered prices, agriculture and land, the previous standard of wealth, became less important.

Faced with such a relative abundance, the people moved towards a culture of consumption. The demand for luxury items soared among the nobility, and to a lesser, but still significant degree, among the fledgling middle class. To furnish the luxuries to feed this growing demand, cities became more important, as they were the places that attracted the skilled artisans as well as the places where trade occurred.

This consumption culture, however, was not limited to private instances of the display of wealth, it also took on a civic nature in the form of patronage. Cities spent vast sums of money on art, architecture, books, music, statues, and other luxuries in order to show their superiority over rival cities. Important figures donated vast sums of money to public works to show their power, influence, generosity, and loyalty to the state. Rival royal courts sought the best in order to provoke the jealousy of their peers.

This consumer mentality served to revitalize the economies that had been ravaged by the plague, creating an increased demand for skilled labor and brave men willing to make the dangerous journeys to bring home foreign goods. There are, however, other factors at play. Local lords exert their own power of their lands, taking what they perceive as their rightful share from state taxes. Meanwhile some state officials, through corruption or lack of skill and knowledge create a noticeable drain on the economy. The wise statesman must take all of these factors into account if they wish to build a strong economy.


The following is a sample, though not exhaustive, list of some things that you may want to consider spending money on. Some of these things will have some kind of upkeep expense to them, which will be automatically deducted.

-Patronage: Throughout the world, artists, scientists, philosophers, and scholars all exist thanks to the patronage of the state. Through their patronage, the state gains marvelous works that impress nobility and commoners alike. But impressing upon others the magnificence of the state is not the only reason for patronage. Libraries, scholars, alchemists, explorers, and others benefit from patronage, and can prove themselves useful to the state in many ways. These clients, however, are loyal only to the coin the state provides them, so if the sovereign cuts back on his patronage, or a nearby sovereign spends more on patronage, the client will quickly move away, taking his valuable skills with him.

-Infrastructure: Roads, harbors, sewers, and other things make up a nation’s infrastructure. These projects, however, take money to build and maintain.

-Education: Sure, peasants don’t need to be very educated to do their job properly, but there are many jobs that do require an education, such as governmental positions or many middle class jobs. Though much of that education is run privately or by the church, state sponsored education may prove useful to the state.

-Bureaucracy: If you expect your government to run in any centralized manner, one will need a bureaucracy. Expanding or otherwise improving the bureaucracy may take more spending in the short term, but pay off in the long term with a more efficient government.

-Projects: Projects, as used here, are simply anything that you want to spend money on that you don’t feel fit under any of the other categories. Simply describe it, and explain how long you feel the project should take until completion, pay for it, and let me worry about the rest.

-Military: There are two branches of the military, navy and army. Navies consist of two types of war-craft, ocean going vessels and galleys. In times of war, additional craft can be temporarily gained through converting merchant craft for military purposes.

Armies are made up of feudal levies, mercenaries, and standing troops. Each has its own strengths and weaknesses. For example, feudal levies are cheaper and more numerous but are the worst troops, mercenaries are professional and relatively cost-effective, but can be unreliable and are a limited commodity. Standing troops are more reliable but can vary in quality and are the most expensive. Another aspect of the militaries is their commanders. For countries that rely on only mercenaries, this is unimportant, as they also hire the commanders of the armies, but for nations that use feudal levies or standing troops, the nations supply their own commanders.


Culture

Culture, as described by this stat, covers both how your own citizens feel about the “grandeur” of your state, as well as how outsiders look upon the “grandeur” of your state.


Nobles’ Opinion

While there may always be various minor schemings and plots in the kingdom by the nobility, this stat describes the nobilities’ view of you as a whole body.


Commoners’ Opinion

While various areas may hate your guts, while others may worship the ground you walk on, this stat measures neither, but instead, the commoners’ view of you as a whole body. This stat, on the whole, is much less important to worry about than the nobilities’ opinion, because, well, they’re commoners’ and who really cares what they think? On the other hand, when the time comes when the commoners’ opinion does matter, it will matter a lot.
 
Will you have some kind of hidden equasion resutling opinions , effected by spending in the like of bure/edu/infra etc

A blackbox as it were like BJ's?
 
Rather simplistic, but okay as a whole. Though I think that you could add things like Infrastructure to the stats.
 
It seems pretty incomplete, to be honest, unless you're hiding a lot of things from the player. Where, exactly, does your spending come from? Infrastructure, as das mentioned, is badly needed (in my opinion, anyway). Other than that sort of thing, I like it. :)
 
Will you have some kind of hidden equasion resutling opinions , effected by spending in the like of bure/edu/infra etc

A blackbox as it were like BJ's?

Yes, there is a "blackbox." Maybe every update I'll post a "Top 10" list, such as "Top Ten Most Generous Patrons" that will give sneak peaks at the "blackbox"

Rather simplistic, but okay as a whole.

Maybe we have different definitions of "simplistic." For me, if you have multiple choices for where you spend your money on, are forced to make real choices (meaning you can't be great in everything at once), and are forced into strategic political and military thinking, then it is not "simplistic." Though in another regard, I partially agree with you. I am intentionally trying to make it "user-friendly” as possible without stripping the player of the ability to make real choices.

Though I think that you could add things like Infrastructure to the stats.

In thinking through what to display, my principle was “What would a sovereign at the time know?” So, for example, I did not show education, because I did not think there was a way for a sovereign to know how educated his people were before they started keeping track of such things as literacy rates. At the time I was writing the rule set, I was thinking that it seemed unlikely that a normative sovereign would have a way to measure the state of the infrastructure for their realm. However, as I have the “Infrastructure stat” for all nations already, it wouldn’t be difficult for me to add that stat (or any other stat) if a compelling argument was made for why a sovereign should know such things.

It seems pretty incomplete, to be honest, unless you're hiding a lot of things from the player.

On the Excel spreedsheet I am using to keep track of the stats, I have 24 slots, roughly 11 of which can be raised through direct spending.

Where, exactly, does your spending come from? Infrastructure, as das mentioned, is badly needed (in my opinion, anyway). Other than that sort of thing, I like it. :)

The origin of the spending is intentionally witheld. After all, how many kings (or queens) knew "If I spend three EP on infrastructure, then I can get one more EP every turn." I attempted in the rather lengthy description of the economy found under "Available Spending" (starting "The economy of the world...") to describe the manner in which in general the economies of the age worked. By reading that, I hope to give a vague idea to the player how money was made, and by doing so, hopefully give him ideas on how to increase his available money supply.
 
Out of interest, how do you set out an excel for many nations with so many stats? I am getting a right headache with my 15+ nations with many stats.
 
Out of interest, how do you set out an excel for many nations with so many stats? I am getting a right headache with my 15+ nations with many stats.

Each continent has its own workbook (is that the right term?). Each nation will only have enough money to change a couple cells each turn, so I change those, and let formulas take care of the rest. The only real time consuming part is the switch from the workbook to the actual stat layout, which I admit, is a pain.
 
Ah, well, if they are hidden, it should be quite fine. As for Infrastructure, I think he would not only know, but have to know at least the state of his roads. They are, after all, literally visible, and vitally important in several areas.
 
Maybe we have different definitions of "simplistic." For me, if you have multiple choices for where you spend your money on, are forced to make real choices (meaning you can't be great in everything at once), and are forced into strategic political and military thinking, then it is not "simplistic." Though in another regard, I partially agree with you. I am intentionally trying to make it "user-friendly” as possible without stripping the player of the ability to make real choices.

I mean simplified: it's ignoring various finer divisions within social groups and so forth. That was more of a comment than an objection, I suppose.

Speaking of visible roads, it goes without saying that the map legend will be changed considerably for the "Iron Age NES", and one of the things I intend to add is visible trade routes (meaning the most important routes, ofcourse). These are not only obviously important with regards to trade, but also are useful for army movement (which is generally best kept to rivers, coastlines and those routes).

EDIT: Another major issue that I would want to sort out would be the military and warfare. I'm thinking of making a more specialised and possibly directly numerical military, mostly dividing it by type into Infantry, Cavalry and assorted Special (things like engineers or the Immortals; a bit like UUs, but actually very different: there could be as many per nation as one would want, but they would probably be particularly expensive and numerically limited, though specific rules will probably vary from unit to unit, and ofcourse there will be other strings attached) and by source into Levy, Regular (Recruited) and Mercenary. I had already mentioned Levy Quotas for provinces. Feasible levy numbers will probably go in the stats (that is the sort of thing that's usually accounted for, I believe). A recruited military will eat lots of money.

As to warfare, I believe I already have mentioned the idea of having separate military updates. I'm not sure if my present idea for the implementation is any good, though, so any suggestions and especially criticism would be helpful (so that I could try and find a way out of the problems that you point out). My idea is to have two-three (depends on how many end up being necessary) military mini-updates before the main update that would sum things up and put them in the greater context. Basically, one is supposed to first send main orders and military orders for the first "phase"; after that, if a drawn-out conflict begins, I would post a mini-update describing the early action in those drawn-out conflicts and describe the present situation, complete with an army positions map and updated military stats (for everyone, so that nations could try and intervenne, or launch a new war in the light of a new distraction). Then the second and if need be the third, the latter being followed directly by the main update. I think this makes more sense than having the military updates follow the main update, as it is clear that the outcomes of the military action would always greatly influence the overall end-turn situations in all the countries; and I would not want to just merge them, because in spite of this not being a wargame it would go against the principles of historical realism to oversimplify warfare and the diplomacy tied to it. Still, I could see this making for a very tight updating schedule (personally I plan on spreading the entire process out over approximately two weeks; that still will require a great amount of commitment on the behalf of the players, but I think that's a good thing; at worst, some people will have to master the fine art of NPCing instruction).
 
Retroactive deletion.
 
Yes, this does indeed look familiar. ;)

Did you forget to post blurbs on nature and energy, or are we just supposed to figure them out from context?

I see you've added more values. After a brief scan, my one quibble is the use of the terms Militant/Pacifist, given that you talk about negotiation as something a Militant society is predisposed to.

It seems to me as if the concepts I think of as Militant/Pacifist are a second-order combination of Constructive/Destructive and what I think you should rename the trait currently described as Militant/Pacifist. Perhaps Active/Passive? Or Involved/Isolationist?

Oh, and did you get help from GLaDOS on these rules? ;)
 
Did you forget to post blurbs on nature and energy, or are we just supposed to figure them out from context?
Rules said:
A society’s development is both a listing of the major natural resources under its control (flora, fauna, and mineralogical)
jalapeno_dude said:
I see you've added more values. After a brief scan, my one quibble is the use of the terms Militant/Pacifist, given that you talk about negotiation as something a Militant society is predisposed to.
The pithy comeback is pointing a gun at somebody's head can be considered a form of negotiation, as can blowing out their kneecaps. I suppose from that viewpoint killing them is a refusal to negotiate. I would be willing to consider switching it to Aggressive / Passive, but when it comes to countries that really winds up producing virtually identical results.
 
The pithy comeback is pointing a gun at somebody's head can be considered a form of negotiation, as can blowing out their kneecaps. I suppose from that viewpoint killing them is a refusal to negotiate. I would be willing to consider switching it to Aggressive / Passive, but when it comes to countries that really winds up producing virtually identical results.
Description of resources noted. I did say I had only scanned things. :p

That's better, as Aggressive/Passive seems more first order. "Aggressive" seems to connote "Destructive" to me (I'd prefer Active or Intrusive or Assertive, especially the latter), but maybe that's just because I'm a bleeding liberal. :p

Do you have a rough ETA planned for this?
 
That is quite interesting Sym. I'm impressed. When does the game start?
 
Somewhere within February is likely.
 
Symphony D.'s sig said:
Wyvern: GO

Symphony D.'s post said:
Wyvern 1.0 Core Rules Module

Figured one of those things would have something to do with this.

Not much to add since last time, though it seems a bit odd for Quantitative/Qualitative values to only appear in High Commercial (I think I get the logic behind it, but it seems more or less appropriate for Middle Commercial as well).
 
I initially thought the same, however more or less everywhere in which the value will be prominent regarding our notice (read: military equipment) the overriding directive, with rare exception, was quantity. A given design of something might individually be good, or it might be bad, but generally you wanted as many of it as you could get regardless. Only around and after WWII did a trend start to develop, in the West, of significantly more expensive and quality controlled systems by specific intent which began cutting into production capabilities. In Soviet Bloc countries, this didn't really happen.

Both sides moved to maximize production of their respective systems as best they could, obviously, but the underlying goals were still different: a handful of really excellent systems or a horde of quite functional ones. In WWI, or the Civil War, or earlier, it was more about "We need as much as possible of what works, and hopefully it's good," to my estimation.

These trends are also roughly similar in civilian gear, though to a lesser extent and importance.
 
Retroactive deletion.
 
Wyvern 1.0 Core Rules Module

Read, digested, understood, no constructive comments. Now just trying to figure out if its something I would be interested in playing.

It's a bit vague but I think it looks functional; determining more than that is difficult without access to the Black Box, which obviously must be kept under wraps. The concepts seem good, though.

The thing I am tinkering with is how "vague" to make a ruleset. The thing I don't want to replicate, that I think many rulesets cause, is an "omniscient" leader, a situation where the ruler knows everything (or at least everything important to the game), such as how much they need to spend on infrastructure to cause a visible change or the education level of their citizens to the exact degree. On the other hand, I don’t want to hide so much that the player is unable to make decisions or feel as if the decisions they do make don’t impact anything.

It's a fairly simply thing to have a far away cell spit out the value determined by an equation somewhere else in the matrix; that cell can even sit next to another cell that has something like the name of the statistic being represented, so that all you have to do is copy and paste.

Because of the above rationale behind my actions, I am considering making stats (such as infrastructure) be displayed, not as numbers, but as vaguer statements. I haven’t yet found a way to have a formula so that numbers are changed to words automatically, though if you know of a way, I would love to hear it. As an example:

State’s Name: Intermarrium Empire
Available Spending: 4
Culture: Average
Corruption: Very High
Infrastructure: Very Low
Patronage: Low
Nobles’ Power (Opinion): Very High (Low)
Commoner’s Power (Opinion): Low (Low)
Army (Leadership/Troop Quality): 5 units (High/Medium)
Navy (Leadership/Troop Quality):
 
I haven’t yet found a way to have a formula so that numbers are changed to words automatically, though if you know of a way, I would love to hear it.

I would also love this.

Currently going with 1=Weak, 2=Poor, 3=O.K. to get around this lack of coding ability.
 
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