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Prasutagus

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Minor correction needed for the Celt's Ogma belief. Ceilidh Hall should provide 5 science, not 4. Thanks
 
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Maintance of roades since start of the construction instead of end to eliminate an exploit when you don't finish roads to avoid maintance cost.
I get where the idea is coming from, but what happens if you decide to actually not build it? If you want to get rid of the maintenance, you'd have to finish it first (because only then can you remove it). I'm not saying I'm against it, quite the contrary, but it's something that should be taken into consideration.
 

Legen

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Alternatively, roads could cost only 1 turn to be built. It is enough to handle the exploit.
 

CppMaster

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I get where the idea is coming from, but what happens if you decide to actually not build it? If you want to get rid of the maintenance, you'd have to finish it first (because only then can you remove it). I'm not saying I'm against it, quite the contrary, but it's something that should be taken into consideration.
You're right. Maybe it'd feasible to remove u finished road. If not, then you would be penalized more for not Planning.
 

Rekk

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I get where the idea is coming from, but what happens if you decide to actually not build it? If you want to get rid of the maintenance, you'd have to finish it first (because only then can you remove it). I'm not saying I'm against it, quite the contrary, but it's something that should be taken into consideration.
Not necessarily. The worker could cost extra maintenance while it's performing the build road task. When it stops performing the task, it stops costing the extra maintenance. If the road is complete, then the road maintenance takes over; if the road is incomplete, then the there's no continuing cost.
 
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Not necessarily. The worker could cost extra maintenance while it's performing the build road task. When it stops performing the task, it stops costing the extra maintenance. If the road is complete, then the road maintenance takes over; if the road is incomplete, then the there's no continuing cost.
Well, that could work indeed.
 

CppMaster

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Or we could leave it and just not do it if it bothers you? Why would we change road building for everyone because a small amount of people exploit it, and they can just not exploit it if it bothers them.
Yeah, we could. However, if the game would be better without exploits, then why ignore them? One reason could be that it'd be very time consuming for devs to do, but they didn't say that it is. Is there any other reason to not improve the game?
 

looorg

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Or we could leave it and just not do it if it bothers you? Why would we change road building for everyone because a small amount of people exploit it, and they can just not exploit it if it bothers them.

I'm not even quite sure how we got here this fast. This started out from a post on the last page where I wondered what had happened to the roof of the happiness in cities as I could now generate more happiness then there were people in the city. Which led to why you would do it and I sort of explained that. Which apparently was a magical exploit that ought to be fixed.

I didn't think it was a big deal and that it was on the level of pre-building roads, which does save you some gold at the cost of massive inconvenience of having to manage workers more or less every turn to stop and start them. The discussion then floated over to how to fix that issue and I suggested the only way to fix the pre-build was to move the cost of the road to the building or start of the build instead of to the completion of the build; which is where the exploit really is then.

That said how much gold you really save depends on speed, build-times, distance and whatnot. But it's more about that you might not be making many GPT at the time so you can not afford to have it cost money while still getting nothing until it is completed. You can prevent yourself from going into the negative on the GPT early by doing it. But over all a pre-built road costs about 10% or so of what a normal road costs to build, it just takes a few extra turns to finish it and it's quite annoying that you have to manage all the workers then every turn.

Moving the cost to the build instead of the finish just means you now should prioritize finishing the roads faster instead of taking your sweet time. Not quite certain yet what would be the ideal then, if it's to have a worker on every tile finishing the road at the same time. So you just get it done. But at the same time then it would would be max cost for the road every turn until finished instead of dragging it out. But over all it would be cheaper, but you might not have the gpt to cover the cost that way. Ideally you would probably want to finish the entire road on the same turn so if you have say a five tile road you want to have five workers there working on their individual segment at the same time so it just finishes the same turn.

That said if you move it to the start of the build then you could just start building roads everywhere to during wars to start sucking out gold per turns from the enemy. So it would then just move from one exploit to another.

Also moving the cost to the front instead of the finish might have a bad impact on general tile improvement, or road building, early on in the game. It might just be to expensive to have to deal with.

But neither of these are really problems that perhaps need fixing, except the original problem of why I can generate more happiness then there are people in my cities.That still is weird, the others are minor issues that perhaps doesn't really need tweaking. They require that you do something that is somewhat annoying to save a bit of yield or get some minor reward for your micromanagement-skills.

https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/new-version-2-0-3-april-1-2022.676113/page-7#post-16258178
 

Rekk

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I'm not even quite sure how we got here this fast.
Topics wander based on what interests people; especially Ina generic patch thread

But neither of these are really problems that perhaps need fixing, except the original problem of why I can generate more happiness then there are people in my cities.That still is weird, the others are minor issues that perhaps doesn't really need tweaking. They require that you do something that is somewhat annoying to save a bit of yield or get some minor reward for your micromanagement-skills
If you can generate more unhappiness than there is population in the city, then I don't see why it's unbelievable that you can generate more happiness than there is population in the city.
 
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azum4roll

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AI often stops constructing a road midway when threatened by enemies/barbarians, or when there's a higher priority tile to improve. If we start charging road maintenance during construction it'll hurt the AI more.

The biggest exploit is stacking golden age, World's Fair +culture% and culture process to buy writers and gain 3-4 policies within 20 turns. AI can never do that.
 

CppMaster

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Why "never"? It's just a matter of modifying AI decision making, no? Could be hard, but far from impossible.
 

stii

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Biggest exploit seems a pretty high bar, how do oyu even rank things?

Like how big of an exploit is blocking military units with workers?
 

looorg

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If you can generate more unhappiness than there is population in the city, then I don't see why it's unbelievable that you can generate more happiness than there is population in the city.
But as far as I can recall you can't. You can't be more unhappy then there are citizens, it used to be that you can't be happier then there are citizens to. But that ceiling is now broken, don't know if the bottom floor for unhappiness is broken either but I have not seen any cities that are producing more unhappiness then there are citizens in the city.

Normally that is. You could create such a situation by just working a lot of specialists, or more specialists then there are free once and then push it so that the city produces more unhappiness. But as far as I know that is the only way to push beyond that lower border. Cities in resistance (or hurricane season) doesn't produce more unhappiness then there size of the city. It's not that there isn't sometimes a benefit to working more specialists then there are free slots, after all if you have excess happiness you could work a few extra once before dragging the city down. Still I don't think this occurs naturally.
 

Zanteogo

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Yeah, we could. However, if the game would be better without exploits, then why ignore them? One reason could be that it'd be very time consuming for devs to do, but they didn't say that it is. Is there any other reason to not improve the game?

Why?
Well..

1) The game is almost always played single player, if something bothers you, just don't do it.
2) The mod developers are clearly losing interest in this, if we are to ask for their time we might as well ask them to direct towards actual improvements
3) Changing one thing, almost always changes something else, sometimes things not meant to change.
4) One persons exploit, is another persons strategy.

I'm not trying to sound like a disagreeable fellow here, but there is no other way to put it. We lost tools due to this way of thinking in the past. (eg, gifting units to other civs)

Moderator Action: Post edited to remove profanity. Please do not bypass the autocensor. - Recursive
 
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Rekk

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You could create such a situation by just working a lot of specialists, or more specialists then there are free once and then push it so that the city produces more unhappiness. But as far as I know that is the only way to push beyond that lower border.
This is what I was thinking about.

It used to be the way you remember, and was specifically changed.
 

CppMaster

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2) The mod developers are clearly losing interest in this, if we are to ask for their time we might as well ask them to direct towards actual improvements
@Recursive can you confirm this?
I'm not trying to sound like a disagreeable fellow here, but there is no other way to put it. We lost tools due to this way of thinking in the past. (eg, gifting units to other civs)
We lost them, because they were considered exploit, right? In that case, this was an improvement.

Moderator Action: Post edited to remove quoted profanity. Please avoid quoting posts in violation of forum rules. - Recursive
 
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