New Version - July 18th (7/18)

[Naxelas]

Also, starting with pathfinder (instead of warrior) wasn't mentioned in patch notes?

 

[Gazebo]

Hotfix incoming. Fixes civilians resetting moves every turn and a few UI issues. Savegame compatible.

G

Edit: link! https://mega.nz/#!DB8XEaiY!JOG-UoGYM7HZM6-xIj1navqPGKgfKdP3dtLZ7NF8WCY

Edit edit: movement UI now fractional for costs - this is ilteroi's experiment (my idea), and can be reverted if unpopular. We shall see!

 

[Bromar1]

Was barbarian spawn rate increased in this beta? I'm finding them even more oppressive than before...

 

[Gazebo]

Was barbarian spawn rate increased in this beta? I'm finding them even more oppressive than before...

Nope.

 

[glider1]

I've heard of a fractional reserve banking system but not a fractional reserve movement system. Great idea!

 

[Zarrk]

Pretty sure it's an oversight but I encountered a CS with 4 Pathfinders, pretty ineffective when you know they can't be upgraded to Scouts unless this was changed.

 

[Gokudo01]

am I alone to think that melee ship are still aweful. They take so much damage, they can't hit and run and after the dromon/trieme(which is the only point where it's balanced, dromon gets almost one shoot by trieme), they don't deal super damage to range ship.
when a lv1 corvette attacks a lv 1 frigate, the corvette deals 30 dmg and take 20. That means that frigate wins any pure trade scenario although frigate is already better against cities, coastal units and in corridor/canal/shock point fights.

And it gets worse with cruiser/ironclad, as ironclad stands it shouldn't cost coal to build.
Ironclad should have a bigger impact.
First you should remove zoc from ranged ship in order to improve ironclad role.
Second, Increase greatly the corvette/ironclad/destroyer strength and increase the damage they take from land units ( so it wont shift the balance with siege/range units )
Third, you should give ironclad damage reduction against ranged units and/or more damage against damaged units
Last but not the least, I really really think that the melee ships promotions should be revamp. The fact that melee CANT hit and run, gets worse and worse as you advance in era. Once you reach industrial, you can take the focus fire from 10 cruisers even with the most careful positioning. And it gets worse if you tries to attack because you will clearly be out of position while the full cruiser armada will be able to bring the pain over your melee ship(s).

ps : with only imperialism , I can attack a city with 10+ cruisers something that you could habve never done before the changes. I don't think it's imbalanced but I think it makes ironclad even more useless.
They can attack once, block the tiles where they attacked and usually takes a huge chuck of damages

 

[Owlbebach]

am I alone to think that melee ship are still aweful. They take so much damage, they can't hit and run and after the dromon/trieme(which is the only point where it's balanced, dromon gets almost one shoot by trieme), they don't deal super damage to range ship.
I can attack a city with 10+ cruisers something that you could habve never done before the changes. I don't think it's imbalanced but I think it makes ironclad even more useless.
They can attack once, block the tiles where they attacked and usually takes a huge chuck of damages

I mentioned this in one of the beta threads, i totally agree with this. The fact that you can attack a city with 15 ships per turn is a bit strange, it is too easy to abuse - 10-15 ships can take almost every coastal city in 1-2 turn

 

[Taikavarpu]

I mentioned this in one of the beta threads, i totally agree with this. The fact that you can attack a city with 15 ships per turn is a bit strange, it is too easy to abuse - 10-15 ships can take almost every coastal city in 1-2 turn

It's even better with England and SotL

 

[Owlbebach]

• Council of Elders scales at 4 (was 2)
• Way of Transcendence scales at 25 (was 20)
• Holy Law scales at 3 (was 2)
• Hero Worship scale value 40 (was 50)

So Council of Elders and Way of Transcendence now give their yeild based on a number of cities without era scaling, right?

Lets say i have 30 cities with my religion, which is an average number, i should get 750 of every yields once i hit new era? Sounds extremely OP, doesn't it? I mean i usually have 300 culture and science per turn in the beginning of medival.

 

[Hosannah]

Hey,
as always, I love the changes! One thing though, and please keep in mind that I've got no clue about all the careful considerations that went into balancing, am I the only one who thinks that most land units should not be able to defend against air strikes at all? Maybe machine gun vs. triplane but try shooting down a bomber or jet fighter with a bazooka, or a rifle. I guess you could argue that mechanised infantry might bring a shoulder pad stinger launcher which might work against helicopters but that aside I don't see how any kind of infantry could hurt a bomber or fighter. Any thoughts?

 

[Gidoza]

I really like the changes to GP and scaling, so there's more incentive to make GW or GI, though the late game is still pretty lop-eared towards bulbing.

Losing 5 tenets at ideology change seems completely brutal to me. 2 was already bad, especially when sometimes nothing can be done about it. Why was this necessary?

Like most of the changes. Somewhat ambivalent about the ranged boats changes, but I can see where it's going. Will try it out. Thank you!

 

[balinte]

am I alone to think that melee ship are still aweful. They take so much damage, they can't hit and run and after the dromon/trieme(which is the only point where it's balanced, dromon gets almost one shoot by trieme), they don't deal super damage to range ship.
when a lv1 corvette attacks a lv 1 frigate, the corvette deals 30 dmg and take 20. That means that frigate wins any pure trade scenario although frigate is already better against cities, coastal units and in corridor/canal/shock point fights.

And it gets worse with cruiser/ironclad, as ironclad stands it shouldn't cost coal to build.
Ironclad should have a bigger impact.
First you should remove zoc from ranged ship in order to improve ironclad role.
Second, Increase greatly the corvette/ironclad/destroyer strength and increase the damage they take from land units ( so it wont shift the balance with siege/range units )
Third, you should give ironclad damage reduction against ranged units and/or more damage against damaged units
Last but not the least, I really really think that the melee ships promotions should be revamp. The fact that melee CANT hit and run, gets worse and worse as you advance in era. Once you reach industrial, you can take the focus fire from 10 cruisers even with the most careful positioning. And it gets worse if you tries to attack because you will clearly be out of position while the full cruiser armada will be able to bring the pain over your melee ship(s).

ps : with only imperialism , I can attack a city with 10+ cruisers something that you could habve never done before the changes. I don't think it's imbalanced but I think it makes ironclad even more useless.
They can attack once, block the tiles where they attacked and usually takes a huge chuck of damages

I think the main problem roots in the ranged ship promotions
If only it didnt give the defense bonus the balance would already improve a lot imo

Even land units would have some chance against them, so the naval warfare wouldnt be as polarized as it currently is, since you could defend against them (with land units) even if ur losing on the seas

When Im losing the naval warfare I just hope for the war to end, and pray that I dont lose cities

 

[Gokudo01]

I think the main problem roots in the ranged ship promotions
If only it didnt give the defense bonus the balance would already improve a lot imo

Even land units would have some chance against them, so the naval warfare wouldnt be as polarized as it currently is, since you could defend against them (with land units) even if ur losing on the seas

When Im losing the naval warfare I just hope for the war to end, and pray that I dont lose cities

yes and no, the problem is already here at lv 1 as I stated in my post ^^

 

[lalalaprout]

I'm having a bug where capturing a city automatically annexes it, there's no prompt as before where you had to choose between annexing, pupetting, razing or viewing the city. Am I alone?

 

[Bromar1]

Nope.

Okay well is there a way to tone down the number or horsemen that barbarians get? It's not so much the number of units but rather all the horsemen running around by turn 50 (standard speed).
Any number I can change in the files?

 

[ElliotS]

So Council of Elders and Way of Transcendence now give their yeild based on a number of cities without era scaling, right?

Lets say i have 30 cities with my religion, which is an average number, i should get 750 of every yields once i hit new era? Sounds extremely OP, doesn't it? I mean i usually have 300 culture and science per turn in the beginning of medival.

First off: Way of Transcendence was much better beforehand. It was hurt the most by removing era scaling, as it only triggers one per era. It's hard to spread much in ancient era, so classical is a weak transition. Then Medieval is worse than it was before (by 15 of each yield per city) and ren. is much worse than before.

Does 'glory of god' even provide meaningful yields anymore? That belief has been nerfed so many times that now it provides less yields than cooperation on each proc. Not asking for it to be changed, just think it's kinda funny. (And reminds me of DotA balancing where they nerf secondary aspects of OP characters to try and balance them while leaving the OP thing that makes them unique untouched. Pretty sure Dark Seer has been nerfed like 40 times now.)

I think Hero Worship was hit the worst, and I'm not going to both taking it ever. The yield types suck AND it provides multiple times less than before. Like, taking a 10 pop city in renessance was 1500 faith and GAP. Now it's 400. Taking a 30 pop capital in modern was 6000 faith and GAP, now it's 1200. I'm going to bring this to the founder discussion thread, this belief is total garbage.

 

[Gazebo]

am I alone to think that melee ship are still aweful. They take so much damage, they can't hit and run and after the dromon/trieme(which is the only point where it's balanced, dromon gets almost one shoot by trieme), they don't deal super damage to range ship.
when a lv1 corvette attacks a lv 1 frigate, the corvette deals 30 dmg and take 20. That means that frigate wins any pure trade scenario although frigate is already better against cities, coastal units and in corridor/canal/shock point fights.

And it gets worse with cruiser/ironclad, as ironclad stands it shouldn't cost coal to build.
Ironclad should have a bigger impact.
First you should remove zoc from ranged ship in order to improve ironclad role.
Second, Increase greatly the corvette/ironclad/destroyer strength and increase the damage they take from land units ( so it wont shift the balance with siege/range units )
Third, you should give ironclad damage reduction against ranged units and/or more damage against damaged units
Last but not the least, I really really think that the melee ships promotions should be revamp. The fact that melee CANT hit and run, gets worse and worse as you advance in era. Once you reach industrial, you can take the focus fire from 10 cruisers even with the most careful positioning. And it gets worse if you tries to attack because you will clearly be out of position while the full cruiser armada will be able to bring the pain over your melee ship(s).

ps : with only imperialism , I can attack a city with 10+ cruisers something that you could habve never done before the changes. I don't think it's imbalanced but I think it makes ironclad even more useless.
They can attack once, block the tiles where they attacked and usually takes a huge chuck of damages

I've considered flipping the 'move after attack' free promotion to melee ships instead of ranged ships, actually. I think that change alone would balance the two lines.

Okay well is there a way to tone down the number or horsemen that barbarians get? It's not so much the number of units but rather all the horsemen running around by turn 50 (standard speed).
Any number I can change in the files?

Use Chill barbs option?

First off: Way of Transcendence was much better beforehand. It was hurt the most by removing era scaling, as it only triggers one per era. It's hard to spread much in ancient era, so classical is a weak transition. Then Medieval is worse than it was before (by 15 of each yield per city) and ren. is much worse than before.

Does 'glory of god' even provide meaningful yields anymore? That belief has been nerfed so many times that now it provides less yields than cooperation on each proc. Not asking for it to be changed, just think it's kinda funny. (And reminds me of DotA balancing where they nerf secondary aspects of OP characters to try and balance them while leaving the OP thing that makes them unique untouched. Pretty sure Dark Seer has been nerfed like 40 times now.)

I think Hero Worship was hit the worst, and I'm not going to both taking it ever. The yield types suck AND it provides multiple times less than before. Like, taking a 10 pop city in renessance was 1500 faith and GAP. Now it's 400. Taking a 30 pop capital in modern was 6000 faith and GAP, now it's 1200. I'm going to bring this to the founder discussion thread, this belief is total garbage.

Hero Worship still scales off Era (and is one of the few that do).

Edit: Glory of God could probably stand to go to 4 (from 2). The meat of that belief is the GP purchase, though.
G

 

[vuko]

ElliotS are you going to build a Modpack Version? Please say yes, pleeease

 

[Owlbebach]

First off: Way of Transcendence was much better beforehand.

Well my post about WoT being OP was a sarcasm...

(And reminds me of DotA balancing where they nerf secondary aspects of OP characters to try and balance them while leaving the OP thing that makes them unique untouched. Pretty sure Dark Seer has been nerfed like 40 times now.)

I think that this is a very good way of balancing. What is strong should be strong and should be nerfed indirectly, by changing some other stuff. This way you force players to find interesting strategies instead of playing every civ the same way.