New Version - October 9th (10/9)

[tu_79]

Then i still don't understand that ability to settle diferent continents with them.......by that time, every valuable land is already settled(excluding small island, which i like tbh) and only reason for settling that ,, by view'' not valuable, are future strategic resources, which i don't see yet. So where is their uniqueness? i don't undertand why gazebo simply do not add that promotion to them. cmon.

I'd prefer this than faith purchasing ships. If people love that feature, give it to Ottomans.

 

[Enginseer]

So thinking about real history set backs vs in-game mechanics I had an idea. What if going over the supply cap reduced science(and culture?) instead of food/production? It kinds of represents a civilization dumping all their effort into war instead of progressing. As a warmonger in game, you could reach a certain tech point, and go all-in on military conquest. If every nation fields huge armies they can't support everyone would get stuck in the same era.

It's probably a stupid idea, that wouldn't work in-game like I picture. But it sounds like it could be cool!

But the AIs dont have this problem and they control it within fairness. Besides war boosted science and culture not vice versa. Nationalism grew as a symbol of dying for your country and many new cool science stuff happened such as the advancement of airplanes.

If people wants the timeline to fit, I could fit in some interesting devastating events...

 

[Owlbebach]

Here is a different point of vue, less global and more city per city :

You are making a mistake in your calculations. Also your example describes 1 particular situation, while my formula describes all possible situations.

Here is a formula in your particular case:

X=research time with annexed city=8,8 turn
Y=research time with puppet city=8,69 turns

So with your partucular numbers puppeting is better

 

[Ziad]

But the AIs dont have this problem and they control it within fairness. Besides war boosted science and culture not vice versa. Nationalism grew as a symbol of dying for your country and many new cool science stuff happened such as the advancement of airplanes.

If people wants the timeline to fit, I could fit in some interesting devastating events...

I think there are enough anarchy events in the game as it is, especially when using all your (wonderful) mods lol

Unless you reworked Civ and Reform to not use the anarchy system?

 

[merill]

So any city producing more than 25 science will speed up your science when annexed. Cities producing less will slow you down unless you invest heavily on their infrastructure.

And if it produce at least 10 science, anexing it doesn't harm your science, anyway (even if it's not optimal).

more complete formula: you need at least (science per turn * 10%) / ( 1 + 10% * nb cities) for each new (not puppet) city to not harm your science rate.
== (science per turn per city * 10%) / ( (1/nb cities) + 10%).
(10% is the % of cost increased per new city)

in your exemple : 100*0.1 / (1 + 0.1 * 0) = 10 (you use an exemple where you have 0 city)

 

[Moi Magnus]

You are making a mistake in your calculations. Also your example describes 1 particular situation, while my formula describes all possible situations.

Here is a formula in your particular case:
View attachment 478631
X=research time with annexed city=8,8 turn
Y=research time with puppet city=8,69 turns

So with your partucular numbers puppeting is better

No, I didn't make a mistake.
I was comparing "doing nothing" to "annexing a puppet", and not "having an additional puppet" to "having an additional city".

It is true that your formula describes all possible situations. But it is a difference just because I've used number instead of variables.
The main difference is that your formula answer to the question "how many annexed cities is optimal ?" wherease I answer to the question "should I annex this city ?", which gives differents results if your cities are unhomogeneous.

General version of my formula :
B = base cost of current technologies (cf civilopedia)
I = % of increasing for each new city.
T = Average number of turns to research a technology (don't forget instant bonuses).
S = science produced by the city before puppet malus
If (S x 40% < B x I%) then "do nothing" else "annex the puppeted city".

This analysys lead to the (obvious) fact that in end game, annexing cities is a cost that will never pay back, while it is usually worth it in early game.

 

[Gokudo01]

Have you nerfed once again Great writer and great scientist essay/discovery technology ?

Because in my current game, I get 1000 culture from popping the GW while having 4 great work. I'm generating 800 culture per turn
At this point, it's not even a choice, you could remove the ability it would be the same thing.

2 turns later I get a great scienstist with 4 Academy, I get 2 turn worth of science ...

I've got 8 cities under my control and 16 puppet

 

[Ziad]

You guys are going out of your way to ignore UAs and policies which mitigate the issues of expansion, and oversimplifying the trade-off to culture and science only when other yields exist.

Not that the conclusion is inherently wrong (could use a small change), but I don't think you can reduce it to an equation that easily.

 

[tu_79]

You guys are going out of your way to ignore UAs and policies which mitigate the issues of expansion, and oversimplifying the trade-off to culture and science only when other yields exist.

Not that the conclusion is inherently wrong (could use a small change), but I don't think you can reduce it to an equation that easily.

Agree. Going peaceful tall in vanilla was an option, here it isn't. No good army, your are dead. End of the optimal mathematical results.

 

[Moi Magnus]

Have you nerfed once again Great writer and great scientist essay/discovery technology ?

Because in my current game, I get 1000 culture from popping the GW while having 4 great work. I'm generating 800 culture per turn
At this point, it's not even a choice, you could remove the ability it would be the same thing.

2 turns later I get a great scienstist with 4 Academy, I get 2 turn worth of science ...

I've got 8 cities under my control and 16 puppet

I don't know if the nerf is intended, but a bug was resoved in that area :
Faith-buyed GS and GW were giving 2 times less science than natural born GS and GW. The bug was resolved, but I don't know which value was supposed to be the good value.

However, I agree that a GS or GW that gives less than 4 turns is pretty bad.

 

[Gazebo]

Have you nerfed once again Great writer and great scientist essay/discovery technology ?

Because in my current game, I get 1000 culture from popping the GW while having 4 great work. I'm generating 800 culture per turn
At this point, it's not even a choice, you could remove the ability it would be the same thing.

2 turns later I get a great scienstist with 4 Academy, I get 2 turn worth of science ...

I've got 8 cities under my control and 16 puppet

There was a bug related to the calculation. If the valuation is now too low, I can adjust that in the CBO.

Long story short: Firaxis made it so that the 'first turn' of every 'yield over x turns' function (like those) was being tripled (this was a bug). I removed the tripling.

G

 

[tu_79]

There was a bug related to the calculation. If the valuation is now too low, I can adjust that in the CBO.

Long story short: Firaxis made it so that the 'first turn' of every 'yield over x turns' function (like those) was being tripled (this was a bug). I removed the tripling.

G

Such headache!

 

[Owlbebach]

And if it produce at least 10 science, anexing it doesn't harm your science, anyway (even if it's not optimal).

No, I didn't make a mistake.

Man you're wrong. I do not understand Meril's formula so i can't really understand where is the mistake... Here is an equation for your particular numbers:

In numerator:
1000=cost of tech
100=increase in cost when annexed

In denominator:
100=your science per turn (you said that you research a tech in 10 turns)
x=science per turn generated by the annexed city

Solution is

 

[Legen]

But the AIs dont have this problem and they control it within fairness. Besides war boosted science and culture not vice versa. Nationalism grew as a symbol of dying for your country and many new cool science stuff happened such as the advancement of airplanes.

If people wants the timeline to fit, I could fit in some interesting devastating events...

Reminds me of a kamikaze event I had when playing Japan. When I was ready to siege the Hunnic Capital, an event pops: a hurricane hits their Capital! Walls destroyed! Two samurai slaps and the Capital is mine.

I wouldn't mind trying some devastating global events, hopefully nothing as incredible as this. But this sounds like implementing Dark Ages, which Firaxis had negative feedback when they tried.

 

[Owlbebach]

You guys are going out of your way to ignore UAs and policies which mitigate the issues of expansion, and oversimplifying the trade-off to culture and science only when other yields exist.

Thing is all other yields do not win you a game directly. They all are used to get more Science and Culture.

Agree. Going peaceful tall in vanilla was an option, here it isn't. No good army, your are dead. End of the optimal mathematical results.

The whole point of my analysis was to show that current tech/culture increase per non-puppet city is too high. It should be reduced by 4-5%

 

[Ziad]

That's my point. With the right builds, one can use faith, gold, monopolies, warfare, diplomacy, civ UAs and even techs/policies to make up for the increased costs. It's not just about the raw culture and science yields.

 

[matlajs]

I am playing now with 7/9 version bcoz of lot of CTDs with newer version. But firaxite materials corporation does not protect my TR as stated in description. Pacal plundered one of my trading ships, while it sailed through his territory just in regular way.

 

[bigcat88]

I am playing now with 7/9 version bcoz of lot of CTDs with newer version. But firaxite materials corporation does not protect my TR as stated in description. Pacal plundered one of my trading ships, while it sailed through his territory just in regular way.

Was it fixed? And then again broken? Cause I see such behaviour 5 month ago, and someone here on forum write about such thing too. But I didn't see a post on GitHub about this )
And after that there was no game where I was able to build this corporation and I forgot about this. But in my current game Japan AI has it, I can create save(this will be tomorrow) and declare war on him and try to plunder tr. But it is only tomorrow...

And I have no CTD with new version, already in atomic era... funny to play with GW that can create only great work(even with 8 writing works - they give so small amount of culture) and great scientist that research almost nothing(but I have no academies). Maybe we need to increase yields from them(writers and scientists) by 30-40%.


Gazebo , can u slightly increase amount of great writing/music works that can be created? Cause on Large/Huge maps I cant create a great work in industrial/modern era...(when u play 16-20 players)

 

[Moi Magnus]

Man you're wrong. I do not understand Meril's formula so i can't really understand where is the mistake... Here is an equation for your particular numbers:

In numerator:
1000=cost of tech
100=increase in cost when annexed

In denominator:
100=your science per turn (you said that you research a tech in 10 turns)
x=science per turn generated by the annexed city
View attachment 478633
Solution is
View attachment 478634

(As said by others, this debate is pointless, but I like to answer to pointless debates)
In my calculations, the 100 science per turn include the 0.6 x.
I am considering you already have puppeted the city, and you are asking yourself "should I annex it ?". Annexing it would gives 0.4x more science, and doing nothing will not change anything.

So the formula I am resolving is :
(1000+100)/(100+0.4x) = 1000/100
Which gives 25, as claimed.

(And the results of meril is comparing annexing VS razing instead of comparing annexing VS puppeting)

Edit : ah, and the science per turn is not 100 on my exemple, since it is 1/10 of the actual cost of a technology, and not 1/10 of the base cost of a technology. But the final result should be the same (not completely sure about that, though)

 

[Enginseer]

I think there are enough anarchy events in the game as it is, especially when using all your (wonderful) mods lol

Unless you reworked Civ and Reform to not use the anarchy system?

Eh anarchy system has been reused and so on and so on. If I were to incorporate radical bad events it would probably be anti-snowball events. (First researcher on the Medieval Era can trigger a global science penalty on universities, meanwhile those that are catching up can't feel the effect and probably feel the effect too late when it begins to expire lol).