News: BOTM 101 --Starts Feb 10--

[Rusten]

Ah you're right. I got confused. In that case York is delayed by 1T.

 

[Xcalibrator]

Why would you get wheel before BW? The way I would play this start would be:
worker -> warrior -> size 4 settler (whip)
worker farms both corns and then chops a forest into settler. You want to spend as few turns as possible trading 1 food for 1 hammer (making settlers/workers)

Yeah, that was going to be my next trial. Why did I do Wheel before BW? Because when I did the first test with SIP I said "Me see grass river! Me want shiny coin! Me build cottages!" and I couldn't reset my thinking for settling double-corn.

Note: I removed forest in WB from the tile York was settled on as there's no forest there in the original game (saves 1 turn to settle).

No, that really is a forest SE of the gems in kcd's shot, but I see that I goofed again on the river there. Man, I hate doing rivers in WB.

 

[Xcalibrator]

There is forest SE of the gem in the original screenshot too. As a little aside, why is it so awkward to place rivers in the world builder?

Xpost above.

Well, it's awkward for me (although it was easier when I had lots of practice in SGOTMs). I would not be at all offended if someone corrected the test game.

 

[Pangaea]

I tried to correct it, but these diagonal rivers are pretty awkward to 'draw'. Made a testmap for the centennial game, and got it perfect there, but don't think I can be arsed here. I don't feel quite right by playing test games anyway.

Besides, I really want to see what the warrior reveals by moving onto that plains hill, because I don't like the sight of all those plains tiles by the river SW. SIP has 7 grassland river tiles for instance (incl. one FP). I'm a sucker for those

edit: maybe this turned out okay.

 

[LowtherCastle]

I guess we're in the SE corner of the map but I'd check on that before making any settling decision.

How do you do that?

 

[lymond]

The overflow then goes into a worker which is later 1-pop whipped.

eenteresting! Much of what you laid out I would have done. The 1 pop worker whip is a new one. I assume you put OF into another settler, and grow to 2 when you can?

Yeah, drawing rivers are a bit awkward in WB. You have to lay down a river on tiles and then backtrack and do over to get some tiles right.

Xcab - with food rich start, BW is a no-brainer. doing so will change your game. rare cases where you would go to Pot directly like that

 

[Rusten]

eenteresting! Much of what you laid out I would have done. The 1 pop worker whip is a new one. I assume you put OF into another settler, and grow to 2 when you can?

Yeah, probably. OF into settler as the warriors will be almost useless. Then grow while making warrior before whipping it again.

The 1-pop worker whip is crucial as you gain so much from every tile here. Need them improved as soon as possible. A big boon. You're almost there already after the settler -- so much overflow.

 

[Deckhand]

How do you do that?

Select a unit, press G for "Go to", hover your mouse around :
If you see a tile is 3, 5, 10 or 15 turns away, then its within the map limits.
If your cursor turns black, then its out of the frame.

Works on all Flat maps.

Wow, something LowtherCastle didn't know! I'm amazed.


I remember using G in Civ II, but not in Civ IV. I do everything with right mouse button.

 

[LowtherCastle]

Wow, something LowtherCastle didn't know! I'm amazed.

Yeah, and now I wish I didn't know.


But thanks for answering, BiC.

 

[WastinTime]

Yeah, and now I wish I didn't know.

I think that is banned (or frowned upon) in the SGotMs

 

[Jastrow]

My recollection is that Flying camera was officially banned, whereas this trick was discussed, and there was not complete consensus but several teams (including TSR) had agreed not to do it. I personally never do it in GOTM either, but dont think it is a particularly big deal if others do.

BTW, I had one quick run through the test game, and notices that someone built the Oracle on T42!!! (=2320 BC). That is one of the quickest I ever remember. Is there something quirky about the specific test game, or something in the map settings which is driving this??

 

[Pangaea]

How about touching on something else. Dr Evil has a score of 47. Any idea what techs and other things that could include? Are units added to score, or only land, techs, population and possibly buildings?

edit: Doing a quick little test, there doesn't appear to be anything too fancy. But he could have a pile of units for all we know.

 

[Seraiel]

BTW, I had one quick run through the test game, and notices that someone built the Oracle on T42!!! (=2320 BC). That is one of the quickest I ever remember. Is there something quirky about the specific test game, or something in the map settings which is driving this??

2320 BC isn't fast, I had Isabella build Oracle in 2800 BC already. It's basically simply luck if a civ researches Priesthood after founding a Religion, Isabella and Gandhi do that often because of their religious flavour, I therefore don't take them as opponents in HoF games anymore. Asoka is also a candidate for very early Oracle. Hatty and Ramesses interestingly aren't, because their buildWonderRating is so high, that they get stuck with Stonehenge all the time ^^ .

 

[lymond]

I even avoid Izzy in those low level HOF games, as she can still often nab Oracle relatively early enough to screw over slings. Gandhi can be hit or miss with Oracle but is always a threat unless you just thrash him early, which is often why he is chosen. Also, Justy is a pretty big Oracle threat.

 

[Pangaea]

That's why I avoid Izzy too. She is way too big a threat for the Oracle (and is a religious nutter). To say 2320BC Oracle isn't early is a bit strange though. That's very early -- even if it has gone earlier in the odd game here and there.

 

[Seraiel]

To say 2320BC Oracle isn't early is a bit strange though. That's very early -- even if it has gone earlier in the odd game here and there.

It's not strange, I'd guess it's at least 20% chance that Oracle goes at that time on Deity, a lot more with Izzy, Gandhi, Asoka or Justi. I regard 2000BC as a 50% safe date for Oracle on Deity, 1800BC is already 80-90% unsafe. 2320BC imo. is the upper region of what's normal but it's not early, early for me is when the player wouldn't have even had a chance to build it if he had beelined Priesthood + BW, and even that has happened to me more than once already.

 

[WastinTime]

But this is Immortal, not Deity. T42 is very early for Oracle.

 

[Jastrow]

How about touching on something else. Dr Evil has a score of 47. Any idea what techs and other things that could include? Are units added to score, or only land, techs, population and possibly buildings?

edit: Doing a quick little test, there doesn't appear to be anything too fancy. But he could have a pile of units for all we know.

Units do NOT enter score.

Assuming the Dr. is not pre-settled, then ONLY technologies enter his score. 47 = 8 technology points. Each ancient era tech is worth 1 point, and each classical (Iron work and horseback, for example) are worth two.

The alternative is he is pre-settled. In that case, the palace is worth 16 points. The exact values for pop and land depend on map, so can only be determined exactly once the save is open, but approximately, each pop is worth 3 to the score, and 9 land tiles at 13, so something like;

Palace = 16
8 land tiles = 11
1 pop = 3
3 technologies = 17
would also make 47.

However, immortal AI always start with at least 3 techs, and since the announcement speaks of adding techs to compensate no trading, this seems extremely unlikely.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

My thoughts?
Me see river corn! Me want! Me settle over there!

It's that simple. I have a hard time seeing any other choice competing. Best tile in the game. It has to be picked up somehow, even if it means settling on the other corn (I don't actually recommend this).

To be a little more refined: It's already clear that commerce won't be a bottleneck with Liz+rivers so I will go for production.

I can definitely see the attraction of settling with so much food. But I'm also thinking... You settle S-SW to pick up the two corn. Your second city gets no culture, which means either it only picks up one of the metals, or it goes midway between them and doesn't pick up *any* metals until you've build a library or a monument or something.

On the other hand, if you settle NE, you get both metals and enough food (from the dry corn) to work them both very quickly. You use the corn and whipping to get a settler out very quickly, who goes to Rusten's favoured S-SW spot (assuming you haven't found somewhere even better by then). Maybe your 2nd city is a couple of turns slower than if you'd gone S-SW first, but your science is way stronger, and you don't have to worry about how to border pop to get both metals. Is that really going to be much weaker than going S-SW first?

 

[Pangaea]

I can definitely see the attraction of settling with so much food. But I'm also thinking... You settle S-SW to pick up the two corn. Your second city gets no culture, which means either it only picks up one of the metals, or it goes midway between them and doesn't pick up *any* metals until you've build a library or a monument or something.

On the other hand, if you settle NE, you get both metals and enough food (from the dry corn) to work them both very quickly. You use the corn and whipping to get a settler out very quickly, who goes to Rusten's favoured S-SW spot (assuming you haven't found somewhere even better by then). Maybe your 2nd city is a couple of turns slower than if you'd gone S-SW first, but your science is way stronger, and you don't have to worry about how to border pop to get both metals. Is that really going to be much weaker than going S-SW first?

I tried the start Rusten suggested, and it's strong with double food (I chopped a 2nd forest into a worker/settler instead of 1-popping it though). But I'm still not entirely convinced. From what I can glimpse, the spot has quite a few plains riverside. And if there isn't any other food for the silver spot, then the capital may have to make do with just the wet corn anyway. If that is the case, you basically lose out at least one shiny (and a turn) for no clear gain, except getting out a settler a turn or three earlier.

Honestly, is SIP really that much weaker? It doesn't "waste" a turn moving, grabs the food-neutral gem, and has lots of grassland riverside for those gorgeous FIN-cottages. There is still room for that city down south (one tile farther away), and hopefully another to grab the silver. Getting the gem online quickly in the capital also means faster research sooner. You'll get out the settler a little later, but not that much later (T34 or so). Obviously it will regrow slower, but I'm not sure how big a deal that is, particularly if that southern spot can't retain both corns anyway.

Settling NE is also tempting, but right now I'm seriously considering just SIP and go with it, instead of daring into the darkness and maybe making a mistake. SIP has the (slight) advantage over NE that the worker can start improving the dry corn right away, and after CS the dry will automatically turn wet. The 3rd ring will grab the silver in decent time too, in case you would normally need a border pop for the city over there. SIP also grabs a healthy amount of forests, plus the floodplain. It looks like there might be more floodplains to the NW, but it's tricky to say for sure. I've been fooled before, and found my expected floodplains are plains

Another point perhaps worth considering is that SIP or NE will get two grassy hills. Doesn't look like S-SW will get any in the fog, and I don't like working plains hills (usually windmill them when windmills don't suck any more).

Naturally things could also change if that warrior discovers something juicy down in the SE. Will be interesting to see the settling map post-game, as I assume people will go in several directions here. Many strong options, and no clear winner that grabs it all, like arguably marble in the last game.

SIP gets:

• 7 grassland (incl. 1FP) riverside, plus Gems
• another 4 riverside plains, that aren't too shabby with FIN-cottages
• 2 non-riverside grassland, and 2 grassland hills
• 10 forests

Not a bad spot at all, IMO.

Having written all this, I've probably convinced myself to SIP

I do wonder if there will be less food on the map than normally, given all the missing animals, or if the mapmaker has compensated with rice, corn, wheat (or calendar resources). Finding metals will also be important here, given that horses and ivory is locked out.