[BTS] Noble Shadow Game for @guyyee #2

[guyyee]

Background:

I picked up CIV4 about 1 month ago, been playing non-stop since. From the outset, the complex game mechanics overwhelmed me and I needed help understanding it. To that end, I played my first CivFanatics shadow game with some of the kindest and most helpful (not to mention brilliant) members (thank you @5tephen, @AcaMetis, @lymond, @Pangaea, @Lennier, @Fippy , @elitetroops) of the forum. To say that I learnt a great deal was an understatement.

...and there is still so much more to learn and explore. Having rushed through that first game, I will attempt to take it more slowly this time round as I seek to unravel the intricacies of Civics, Specialists, and Great Persons. Also, I hope to achieve a different victory path than the one in my first shadow game where I won via Domination, this is so I can experience different aspects of the game.

Setting:

Noble, Pangea, Standard size, Temperate climate, Medium sea-level, Normal game speed, 6 rival civs
Starting Civ: Pacal (Maya Empire)

Spoiler Starting Map :

 

[guyyee]

Observation:

1. Quite happy with this map to be honest: lots of food resource rich tiles esp ocean tiles
   
2. There is a river, and flood plains and riverside grasslands! So this should bode well for a financial capital with a barrage of cottaged tiles.
   
3. I should also see if I can build a nearby second city near the river so they are connected right from the start + share overlapping tiles.

Plan:

1. Settle in place
   
2. Tech Fishing to get the two Crabs tile improved
3. Build worker, then warrior
   
4. Send warrior out to explore 10-tile radius
5. After Fishing, go for Bronze Working (for chopping and slavery); then Agriculture > Pottery (I figured BW before Agriculture because of abundance of food-rich tiles)

 

[sampsa]

Perhaps 1W is better? Gains a floodplain, gets rid of junk tiles (ph+4 water tiles). Loses a turn, but gains it back since worker can improve farm without costing a turn for movement.

I wouldn't go fishing, since boats are expensive. If I went fishing, I wouldn't improve crabs but fish (+1). Straight for agri-BW to expand asap to good sites feels clearly better to me.

 

[coanda]

Seafood starts are tricky, particularly when your civ does not start with Fishing. Think through the timeline of your proposed start. Worker -> Warrior is 15 turns then about 5 turns, around 20 turns. Which means you aren't even starting a work boat until turn 20, by which time you have researched both BW and Fishing anyways. Going BW -> Fishing lets you start a work boat about as quickly, but means you get chops earlier - so your worker, when he finishes on turn 15, has something more useful to do than simply standing around waiting for BW.

Of course, the problem with both of those options is that the absolute hands-down best tile in your city radius is the corn. And delaying Agriculture until around turn 25 means that corn farm is slow. It's the highest-value play and you don't want to push it off until turn 30+. Agriculture -> BW -> Fishing is a more solid opener. Worker -> Warrior, then you either do a size-2 chopped settler or grow to size 4 while chopping a work boat for the fish tile and do a size 4->2 whip on the settler.

In the slightly longer run, that city has too much food. Potentially 16 surplus food at size-4. Which is more than it can reasonably use without waste. You're going to want to settle a second city somewhere nearby to the southwest that can steal the corn and some floodplains, at least until mid-game.

 

[Zavior]

I might even consider settling 1NW of the elephants, lots of riverside grassland + flood plains, can leave the seafood for a helper city to grow cap's cottages and run a lot of specialists later on

 

[sampsa]

Yes, inland capitals are a lot stronger than coastal ones, even if the coastal spot has seafood, because coastal tiles are rather weak.

 

[WLanky13]

I agree with sampsa that 1W is better. It adds the floodplains, increases the amount of land tiles the capital can work, and adds 2 forests for chopping.

 

[Wrathful]

If I played this I would probably settle on the ivory. You can work a forested hill for a ten turn worker (courtesy of EXP). Wet wheat is worse than wet corn, but not by much. You also block more land (not that important on noble, but it helps on higher levels) and exchange coast and ocean for riverside grassland and flood plains. Second city can go somewhere west of the corn, and later on the seafood can be backfilled. Tech Agriculture > Mining > BW early on.

 

[sampsa]

Yea, settling on ivory is one good option. It's actually only 1T slower to settle there than 1W which feels counter-intuitive at first glance.

 

[Fippy]

I would go even further than Wrathful and suggest settling on Ivory is key here.
We already know there would be an excellent 2nd city spot along the river with wet corn (+ tradroute),
wheat will be equal to corn while building settlers (but weaker for whipping), and an extra + faster worker allows setting up everything really well.

Seafood can be GP farm, but those can be set up later.
Pacal doesn't make for a good coastal starter.

 

[guyyee]

So many questions:

I wouldn't improve crabs but fish (+1)

Crab is also +1, why not crabs?

Wet wheat is worse than wet corn, but not by much

What do you mean by wet? How is it important?

wheat will be equal to corn while building settlers (but weaker for whipping)

I don't quite understand this. Can you explain in a little more detail?

Yes, inland capitals are a lot stronger than coastal ones, even if the coastal spot has seafood, because coastal tiles are rather weak.

I am trying to understand why. Is it because those coastal tiles are not improvable?

 

[Pangaea]

Late to the party. Thought about settling more inland too, because seafood starts can be tricky to get right, and we already know the land south is good based on the fortunate starting position of the warrior on the hill. Settling on the ivory can be a strong move ofc, double-hammer city tile. But I'm a little hesitant without knowing more about the land further south. Looks like we may pick up quite a few brown (plains) tiles. Whether I'd like a move like that depends a bit on the flow of the river (does it end?) and if there is more food. Otherwise settling 1NW of ivory looks pretty strong too, despite wasting a green hill. Pretty sure there are more FPs to the west.

If you are devoted to moving anyway, maybe something like this would make sense.
1. Warrior SE to the plains hill for a good view. Settler 1S.
2. Warrior SW into the forest (this may not reveal anything more, due to the previous hill view). Settler SW (to FP) and then S onto the hill.
This should give a pretty good view about whether to settle there, or move further to the ivory. Both can happen in the same turn.

Edit: I loaded up the save and did those moves, which made it easy to decide.

Spoiler :

...that I was wrong in my reservations and you were right Marble sure is nice, and it's a very strong capital even without that. Would have been great with another food source, but two floodplains kinda makes up for it.

 

[sampsa]

Crab is also +1, why not crabs?

All -resources are +1 unimproved. Using a work boat adds +2 for clams/crabs. Work boat adds +3 for fish. So my (+1) meant that fish is +1 compared to crabs (improved fish 5, improved crabs 4). Commerce is less important for now.

What do you mean by wet? How is it important?

Wet means access to fresh water. Adjacent to a river/lake. That fresh water gives grains +1, very important.

I don't quite understand this. Can you explain in a little more detail?

Wet wheat is 51. Wet corn is 6. When building a settler, they are equal (both generate 6-2=4 towards settler). When whipping, higher is better for faster growth.

I am trying to understand why. Is it because those coastal tiles are not improvable?

Yes. Early on, coastal tiles can be improved only by lighthouse. Lighthoused FIN coast is 23, which is not awful, but significantly worse than grass river cottages (also 23) because latter doesn't need a 60 building and will improve in 10T to 24 and will keep on improving. So in general, coastal cities require big investments (boats, lighthouse) to become strong, hence they are much better later, when you can afford to put your precious into something else besides settlers/workers/warriors.

Later on, there is also Moai that adds +1 to water tiles, but that's not as great as it seems at first glance. It's mainly because working coastal tiles competes with whipping and running specialists and it (working coast) is the best option only when you need to grow.

 

[guyyee]

Ok, thanks.

Went ahead and settled on ivory. Teching Farming > Bronze Working.
First worker out > farmed wheat tile 2E
Building warrior next

Greeted by few AI civs; Montezuma is a neighboring civ to my east (just when I thought I could play out more peacefully in the early game as I had enough of an early war in my first shadow play)

1. Where should I send my worker to improve next?
   
2. I plan to tech Pottery next for the granary and cottage improvement.
   
3. When Bronze Working is done, I will chop out a settler?

 

[Pangaea]

Since the worker has nothing all that sensible to do right now until BW is in, and farming a tile is kinda pointless since a base floodplains has the exact same yield, maybe the best use of him is to put a mine on that PH. It will be nice to have once you build another worker later on, and settlers too for that matter. You don't have that many powertiles here besides the wheat (and marble later). Once you have pottery, you can cottage those two floodplains (unless the timing with chops is wrong, chopping is more important). That is probably what I would do, after a very brief look at the recent image.

Hopefully you find some nice spots around for a future city. With nearby AIs, you can backfill later, as those spots should be safe (especially on this level, heh).

 

[sampsa]

On the way to the wheat, did you farm a grassland for 1T? Doesn't matter here, but in principle should always be done. Now I think the alternatives are mining the plains hill or putting some farming into a flood plain. There is a real chance that the plains hill has copper, so maybe that tilts things into favor of mining.

 

[sampsa]

Oh I'd also start a settler immediately at size 2. You have strong tiles (when building a settler/worker, is transformed into , thus: 4 from city center, 4 from wheat, 2 from hill) so there isn't really any point in growing larger to work weak tiles (unimproved flooplain 1).

The alternative to this is growing (to size 4) intending to whip the first settler, but I don't think it's as good, since we are not growing fast enough. Also in this case building a mine is completely moot.

 

[dankok8]

Coastal starts are definitely worse from my vantage point too. I've played a few in my offline games recently and when I have to build a Workboat or two early it really slows down my overall development. I always find myself on fewer cities, finishing key wonders later etc. Generally early in the game for the first 60 turns or so you want to avoid having your cities build anything other than Workers and Settlers as long as you have good land to expand into. Of course you have to build fogbusters but I've gotten more efficient at that as well and can get away with fewer units than before. Remember that more units apart from tying up your production can also cost unit maintenance.

 

[guyyee]

1. WARRIOR out, sent unit to explore west side of map
2. Send first worker to mine tile (2N1E)
3. Built settler, worker is next
   
4. Set eyes on Second city (1W of Wet Corn)
5. Teching Wheel and Pottery
   
6. Planning to research Writing > Animal Husbandry next

Spoiler Map - Turn 28 (2880BC) :

On the way to the wheat, did you farm a grassland for 1T?

But I don't have Bronze Work, I can't farm the land 1W of Wheat tile (which has forest on it) for 1 turn.

The alternative to this is growing (to size 4) intending to whip the first settler

I tried playing through this alternative - but I had to keep building warriors because otherwise the city will not grow to size 4 quick enough... and you are right, Settler was out much faster with the first method you suggested.

You have strong tiles (when building a settler/worker, is transformed into , thus: 4 from city center, 4 from wheat, 2 from hill) so there isn't really any point in growing larger to work weak tiles (unimproved flooplain 1).

Just to clarify, if I set the citizen to work the unimproved floodplain, wouldn't it translate to 3 since 3 is transformed into 3?

 

[elitetroops]

But I don't have Bronze Work, I can't farm the land 1W of Wheat tile (which as forest on it) for 1 turn.

You can move diagonally. The idea is that moving a worker 2 tiles to a tile he starts to improve the next turn is always wasting a worker turn. Instead you move 1 tile, start an improvement and then cancel the order. Next turn you move 1 tile again and start improving the tile you want to improve. You start the second improvement exactly as fast but got a partial improvement already built on the tile in between.