[BTS] Noble Shadow Game for @guyyee #2

[lymond]

I'd really rather improve that cow first before chopping. With Maths now on the docket you can save forest chops til it completes. 1 maths chop will 1t a granary.

I really don't like these Holkan "placeholders. Maybe one in Mutal is okay, but Lak is a good place for a settler. A warrior would have been better in Lak. I'd start thinking about bringing those warriors back to MP Mutal and Lak.

Holkans can do spawnbusting and you really should not neglect these areas NW and NE of your empire - they will become much bigger issues for you on higher levels if you don't do a better job busting. Your warriors are doing nothing right now in that regard.

I would:

1) Send warrior E of Itza back to Mutal..

2) Have Mutal take PH mine for wheat temporarily to avoid unhappy until warrior arrives. Give Itza the wheat temporarily. (Make sure Mutal grows the turn before warrior arrives in city - turn 4 - as the warrior will make it happy, so take wheat back on turn 3)

3) Worker 2 will road on wheat tile (this will connect Itza trade route) and then worker can move to cow to improve immediately

4) Lak starts a settler now, while unhappy wears off. Warrior from SW can move back to Lak to MP...7 turns. Worker 1 can improve horse after cottage and Lak grow on that later.

5) New Holkan from Mutal can head E to keep barbs at bay while the holkan S of Mutal can head NW in that area.

6) After Holkan, Mutal should focus on getting that library with plans to 3 pop whip it immediately at size 6. (Mutal will grow back into 2 scientists.

Coastal city back where you originally started seems obvious next spot. Land is kinda tight here and there are not obvious spots beyond that. I'd very much consider Horse Archers after Maths.

Other notes:

The FP worker 1 is improving at the moment should have been improved before the FP 1N of there, as this tile is shared with Mutal ...I mentioned this point a couple of times.

I might have avoided OB with Gandhi for now since WE with Monty.

Warrior south of Celtia is pointless

 

[guyyee]

Thanks!

I really don't like these Holkan "placeholders.

Why?

Mutal will grow back into 2 scientists.

What do you mean by "grow back into 2 scientists". Don't quite get it. How does this scientists work and what's the mechanics?

I'd very much consider Horse Archers after Maths.

Horseback Riding? Why? What's the rationale?

 

[Zavior]

What do you mean by "grow back into 2 scientists". Don't quite get it. How does this scientists work and what's the mechanics?

6) After Holkan, Mutal should focus on getting that library with plans to 3 pop whip it immediately at size 6. (Mutal will grow back into 2 scientists.

Work scientist specialists to get a gp(great scientist in this case) out. You can assign scientist specialist after constructing a library.

Horseback Riding? Why? What's the rationale?

For horse archers. You have a good amount of commerce with the flood plains, plenty of forests to chop, good food for whipping and most importantly horses available. It would be quite a strong play here. Most likely so strong that you could destroy all the AI's on the map with just horse archers.

 

[guyyee]

@lymond

Just to be sure:

1. After granary is completed in Itza, what should I build? Since it's still a small city, I'd not be inclined to build a worker here. Library?
   
2. After library is completed in Mutal, what should I build? I'm thinking of worker once the pop grows back to 4.
3. After settler is built in Lak, what should I build? I'm thinking of library again?
   
4. I don't really get the specialist thing. So what do I have to do? Once the library is built, I add 2 specialist scientist from city screen? Will this affect my city population growth?

 

[5tephen]

Specialists are on the right hand side of the city screen. Most require technologies and buildings or civics to use them.

Think of scientist specialists as like a city tile with +3 0 but most importantly +3 great scientist points per turn. Other specialists generate different things but always great person points specific to that specialist i.e. merchant specialists generate great merchant points. N.B. specialists are food negative.

Once a city has enough great person points a great person will appear there. Great scientists are very strong for 'bulbing' expensive techs. Subsequent great people get more and more expensive. Which great person appears depends on how many points from each specialist you have accumulated. i.e. if half the points accumulated are for great scientist there is 50% chance of great scientist versus 50% chance of merchant/artist/whatever else great person points the city has accumulated - currently in your game you can only work scientists so 100% chance for great scientist.

Different specialists are not as useful as each other. Early game great scientists are best and later great merchants. All great persons can be consumed to trigger a 'golden age' which, timed correctly, is always good. Try and avoid generating great prophets on the whole, and artists and engineers are useful in specific scenarios. Great spies are good but complex to fully leverage.

 

[lymond]

Why?

There's a few reasons, but mainly as you are building a higher hammer cost unit in currently low hammer cities that have more important builds at present. Fine if you had plans to 2pop these units but that is not necessary or prudent. Warrior is a better placeholder as it is much cheaper and you can simply put a hammer here and there without hitting hammer decay before it completes...and warriors make great MP.

What do you mean by "grow back into 2 scientists". Don't quite get it. How does this scientists work and what's the mechanics?

Sometimes I have to remind myself that you are still very new to this game. Specialists and great people are a very integral part of the game. However, I don't think we've really discussed them much so far, and you basically went off on your own in the last game.

Scientists are the first specs you can run in the game, and really the ones you will focus on for most of early and mid-game because a) they provide beakers b) the generate Great Scientists (GS) which are extremely value for much of the game for bulb strategies. Your first GS is often used for an academy in your capital, which I think is the better play for newer players until the understand better the other uses and benefits. Bulbing Philosophy for Pacifism is another nice option, but again, only as good as one's ability to take advantage of it.

Horseback Riding? Why? What's the rationale?

Short answer: To kill all the things

Long answer: You have horses and not metal. HAs are awesome. You have 3 nearby AIs and not really a lot of good land to expand into. HAs are a very logical strategy here even on the highest levels.

 

[lymond]

@lymond
After granary is completed in Itza, what should I build? Since it's still a small city, I'd not be inclined to build a worker here. Library?

I'm unsure at this point. Library not a valuable here as..say..Lak. Ask me again later.

@lymondAfter library is completed in Mutal, what should I build? I'm thinking of worker once the pop grows back to 4.

I'd like Mutal to grow into scientists and be at happy cap, though uncertain what the happy situation will be after library whip. I would not stagnate on worker if city can still grow to happy cap. A barracks would not hurt if going for HAs.

@lymondAfter settler is built in Lak, what should I build? I'm thinking of library again?

Library is okay in Lak. Not a bad place though to build another worker at Size 4

@lymondI don't really get the specialist thing. So what do I have to do? Once the library is built, I add 2 specialist scientist from city screen? Will this affect my city population growth?

I explained some before. You grow into scientist - you should have happy for that, but nice thing is running two scientists slows the grow while waiting for the unhappy to fade. It works out well.

 

[guyyee]

Ok.

1. Libary in Mutal will be out in next turn. Queueing Barracks.
2. Granary is out in Itza. Putting Warrior as placeholder (zero hammer invested) > what do you suggest we build here?
3. Worker finished improving cow tile, I'll go on and build road since the cow requires a route: where should he go next? Not much else to improve within Itza's cultural border.

Lak starts a settler now, while unhappy wears off. Warrior from SW can move back to Lak to MP...7 turns. Worker 1 can improve horse after cottage and Lak grow on that later.

Just wondering, instead of improving the horse tile, why not chop the settler? because of lack of math powered chopping? by the way, I chopped the forest 1 turn en route to the horse tile.

Library is okay in Lak.

Just so I understand it correctly, library is ok in Lak as opposed to Itza because Lak has more commerce-rich tiles?

Sometimes I have to remind myself that you are still very new to this game. Specialists and great people are a very integral part of the game.

I'm keen to learn, teach me... say I convert two citizen to specialist, so basically it will consume food without working the tiles? so that means less two citizens working the tile? which means I will have to increase the happiness cap?

Spoiler Turn 58/500 | 1680BC :

 

[Pangaea]

Unsure if this has been recommended yet, but have you read this excellent guide?
https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/beginner-help-the-basics.648469/

 

[WLanky13]

One quick thing from looking at the screenshot: Chichen Itza is working a tile that does not currently have an improvement on it and Mutal has improved tiles that are not being worked. Instead of working the grassland with no improvement, go into the city screen for Chichen Itza and work one of the cottages next to Mutal. In general, never work a tile without an improvement unless absolutely necessary.

 

[lymond]

Ok.

1. Libary in Mutal will be out in next turn. Queueing Barracks.

Looks like good job on Library whip..you did 6>3 whip, right? Barracks probably fine to use for growth.

2. Granary is out in Itza. Putting Warrior as placeholder (zero hammer invested) > what do you suggest we build here?

Another warrior probably does not hurt here. City needs to grow for now and work some of those cottages while Mutal grows into scientists.

3. Worker finished improving cow tile, I'll go on and build road since the cow requires a route: where should he go next? Not much else to improve within Itza's cultural border.

Ask yourself if you need a road on that cow.... I think this worker can make plans to prepare for new city so should move now. A road starting on the tile 2N of Mutal would be good idea

Just wondering, instead of improving the horse tile, why not chop the settler? because of lack of math powered chopping? by the way, I chopped the forest 1 turn en route to the horse tile.

First, I must make something very clear here. Seems you misunderstood our advice about making use of worker moves. The idea of moving from point A to point C, is that the worker can move freely on Tile B. This enable him to put 1t into an improvement - like a cottage or road > cancel the action > and move immediately to the target tile to improve.

In your case, you moved into a forest which used up all 2 moves of the worker. Now that is fine if you just planned to chop the forest (which actually is fine here for the settler). But if your idea was to move to horse and make use of the a worker "half-move" then you would not move into forest. You could have moved 1S of Lak freely, placed a turn of some improvement and then pastured the horse next turn.

By moving to the forest and back out you lost not just 1 turn but actually 2 turns because you will then lose another worker turn moving back into the forest to chop. I hope you can see what is wrong with that, but feel free to question me further on the concept.

Just so I understand it correctly, library is ok in Lak as opposed to Itza because Lak has more commerce-rich tiles?

Library is not critical in Lak, but ..yes...certainly a better build there because of the commerce and the food. there. I would want one there eventually but it is not urgent by any means.

I'm keen to learn, teach me... say I convert two citizen to specialist, so basically it will consume food without working the tiles? so that means less two citizens working the tile? which means I will have to increase the happiness cap?

Working specialists uses two citizens. It will slow growth. Has nothing to do with happy cap other than the fact that if happiness is a concern the scientists will slow growth such that you can avoid that easy. In your case, Mutal can easily grow back into 2 scientists with no happy issue. Regardless, you are running 2 scientists in Mutal for a reason..to get that GS points started for that first GS.

Good point by Wlanky. You really need to pay attention to your cities - every turn - and make sure they are working the right tiles. Itza is not. Besides the fact that one citizen is working an unimproved tile, if you don't work those cottages they do not grow nor do you benefit from the commerce that cottage provides to the empire.

edit: On another note, I've notice that you use go-to to auto-move some of your units like the Holkan. I would break that habit.

 

[guyyee]

Barracks probably fine to use for growth.

How does barracks help growth?

Looks like good job on Library whip..you did 6>3 whip, right?

Yeah, 6>3 whip on that library.

Seems you misunderstood our advice about making use of worker moves. The idea of moving from point A to point C, is that the worker can move freely on Tile B. This enable him to put 1t into an improvement - like a cottage or road > cancel the action > and move immediately to the target tile to improve.

Help me understand. This is confusing. I misunderstood it because travelling through forest consumes a turn?

On another note, I've notice that you use go-to to auto-move some of your units like the Holkan. I would break that habit.

Why?

 

[Zavior]

How does barracks help growth?

I think lymond means just to build barracks while growing back to happy cap after the whip. You should still keep scientist specialist and let the barracks be built slowly.

 

[5tephen]

Edit: please see @Lennier corrections below.

Moving onto an unroaded forest or hill uses all of a unit's remaining movement points for the turn (unless it has specific promotions which workers cannot get.)

Starting a worker action e.g. build road also consumes any remaining movement points for the turn.

To improve a tile 2 tiles away requires moving 2 tiles high costs 2 movement points. If you use these all on moving tiles on turn 1, your worker will be on the destination tile ready to start the improvement on turn 2. If instead you move the worker 1 tile on turn 1 and put 1 turn of improvement into the tile your worker is now on, then at the start of turn 2 you can move 1 tile onto the destination tile and you still have 1 movement point to start the improvement on the destination tile at the end of turn 2. You have therefore utilised all 4 potential worker movement points over 2 turns rather than having lost one as in the first example. Moving onto the forest used both the worker's movement points meaning you couldn't utilise the second movement point on turn 1 and if you start chopping on turn 2 you cannot then move the worker that turn as well so you delay arrival on the cow tile.

Sometimes it's unavoidable to land on forest/hill on the way to your destination tile.

If your destination tile is 3 tiles away without forests or hills in the way it would be inadvisable to put turns into improvements on the way as moving to your destination tile without doing this and starting to improve it already uses all 4 movement points of your worker over 2 turns and stopping on the way would slow down improvement of your destination tile.

On a side note about movement and terrain costs - edited out, see Lennier's post for correct information - sorry must have written this bit in a hurry.

Attacking across a river carries a significant penalty.

Roads half movement costs but only very limited units can use enemy roads when at war. Engineering decreases movement costs for your units. Railways are like roads but increase movement considerably.

 

[guyyee]

Turn 66 | 1360BC

1. Third city formed (Uxmal) > building granary
2. Worker 2 chopping granary for Uxmal
3. Mutal building barracks
4. Lak building library
5. Teching Horseback Riding, plan to tech Fishing to utilize water tiles for Uxmal; after that Alphabet > Currency
6. Worker 1 chopping library for Lak.
7. Converted citizens to 2 scientists\
8. Should have started a worker in Itza instead of the chariot.

 

[Lennier]

Moving onto an unroaded forest or hill uses all of a unit's remaining movement points for the turn (unless it has specific promotions which workers cannot get.)

Starting a worker action e.g. build road also consumes any remaining movement points for the turn.

To improve a tile 2 tiles away requires moving 2 tiles high costs 2 movement points. If you use these all on moving tiles on turn 1, your worker will be on the destination tile ready to start the improvement on turn 2. If instead you move the worker 1 tile on turn 1 and put 1 turn of improvement into the tile your worker is now on, then at the start of turn 2 you can move 1 tile onto the destination tile and you still have 1 movement point to start the improvement on the destination tile at the end of turn 2. You have therefore utilised all 4 potential worker movement points over 2 turns rather than having lost one as in the first example. Moving onto the forest used both the worker's movement points meaning you couldn't utilise the second movement point on turn 1 and if you start chopping on turn 2 you cannot then move the worker that turn as well so you delay arrival on the cow tile.

Sometimes it's unavoidable to land on forest/hill on the way to your destination tile.

If your destination tile is 3 tiles away without forests or hills in the way it would be inadvisable to put turns into improvements on the way as moving to your destination tile without doing this and starting to improve it already uses all 4 movement points of your worker over 2 turns and stopping on the way would slow down improvement of your destination tile.

On a side note about movement and terrain costs, in case you don't know units aside from workers and settlers lose lose all their movement points for the turn crossing rivers until you have researched construction. Attacking across a river carries a significant penalty.

Roads half movement costs but only very limited units can use enemy roads when at war. Engineering decreases movement costs for your units. Railways are like roads but increase movement considerably.

5tephen, there are a couple of mistakes here. Moving into a forested or jungle tile or onto a hill (without roads) uses 2 movement points; not "all of a unit's remaining movement points for the turn." There are very few 3-move units, but if you have one, it can move again after moving onto such tiles. (But doesn't change conclusions about regular workers, that are 2-move units. But if you're playing India, your fast workers are 3-move units which have the advantage of being able to move onto a forest and start chopping immediatly.)

Crossing rivers doesn't cost movement points. However, before you discover construction the move will act as if there's no road even if there is one. Once you discover construction, you can continue to move along roads over rivers.

The engineering boost is specific to roads; once you know engineering, roads cost 1/3rd of a movement point. Railroads cost 1/10th of a unit's movement points to traverse.

 

[lymond]

How does barracks help growth?

As Zavoir said, it was simply about growing the city

Yeah, 6>3 whip on that library.

Help me understand. This is confusing. I misunderstood it because travelling through forest consumes a turn?

You've received some responses to this. Do you understand now?

Worker has 2 moves. You are making use of that fact as you move from tile A to C, by putting 1 turn into something on tile B. Moving into a forest or hill consumes 2 moves so totally defeats that concept.

Why?

It is sloppy and dangerous. It means you are not paying attention to that unit or its actions. What if it runs into barbs?

 

[lymond]

Turn 66 | 1360BC

1. Third city formed (Uxmal) > building granary
2. Worker 2 chopping granary for Uxmal
3. Mutal building barracks
4. Lak building library
5. Teching Horseback Riding, plan to tech Fishing to utilize water tiles for Uxmal; after that Alphabet > Currency
6. Worker 1 chopping library for Lak.
7. Converted citizens to 2 scientists\
8. Should have started a worker in Itza instead of the chariot.

Looks good right now. Go Fishing right now ..1T..and then finish HBR and Archery. Chariot kinda pointless but guess you can use him as a supermedic later. Worker can chop 1t gran, lay road on that tile for trade route, the start chopping work boats.

Forests in other cities will be used for HAs.

OB with Mao

I'd probably go Alpha after Archery.

Uxmal can work cottage 2N of Mutal

Not sure if you have BULL active (worker prechops), but don't finish Lak forest chop. Time 3pop library with 1t before finishing Archery. OF and chop into Horse Archer.

Put EPs on Gandhi ..best techer. Hannibal would work too but he already has a lot of EPs on you. Not sure if we discussed this before. Go to EP screen (top right) and set Gandhi to weight of 1 which puts all 4EP on him.

(Note: I played from your save several turns to the first war. I can post that later after you get there... I attacked the Celts)

 

[guyyee]

Moving into a forest or hill consumes 2 moves so totally defeats that concept.

Moving into forest tile consume 2 moves. What about a worker moving out out of a forest tile? will that consume 2 moves on a fresh turn? I assume it will not since the preceding turn has already consumed the 2 moves. Correct?

OF and chop into Horse Archer.

What is "OF"?

Forests in other cities will be used for HAs.

You mean chopping out Horse Archers?

Put EPs on Gandhi ..best techer.

Espionage is new to me, eager to learn more. What does this do to Gandhi?

Hannibal would work too but he already has a lot of EPs on you.

What does it mean? What advantage does Hannibal has on me?

 

[lymond]

Moving into forest tile consume 2 moves. What about a worker moving out out of a forest tile? will that consume 2 moves on a fresh turn? I assume it will not since the preceding turn has already consumed the 2 moves. Correct?

Ok..ha...sorry if I'm going to sound a wee impatient here, but we're spending way to much time on a very very simple concept that is really not all that important. It's a micro trick that will pay off to learn as you increase difficulty.

We have given you all the information you need. Myself, I've explained in detail 3 or 4 times now. You just need to visualize and perform the actions in game. You have moved workers in and out of forests and hills hundreds of times now so those questions don't need answered. The concept itself is not even about hills and forests. It is about maxxing worker micro/turns based on the fact that it is a 2 move unit. You need to grasp that idea first. What are you gaining when you can move a worker (freely) between tiles A and C (target), by placing 1 turn into improvement on tile B along the way?

ugh..okay, I'll explain further with an example I have already given you:

Lakama:

Tile A - Flood plain (worker had finished cottage)
Tile B - flat unforested riverside plains
Tile C - horses (workers next target)

Turn 1 - Worker moves to Tile B and ..whatever. ... 1 turn road or 1 turn cottage or 1 turn farm > then cancel worker action

Turn 2 - Worker moves to Tile C and improves horses.

Tile A to C is 2 tiles or 2 moves for the the 2 movement point worker. So moving from Tile A to C expends those 2 movements. What you have done here is instead used that movement to place a partial improvement between Tile A and Tile C on Tile B....because you can and you are still starting horse improvement on Turn 2 regardless.

Note: Right now I don't care diddly about the "improvement" on Tile B. It's not the point. The point is understanding the concept, because it is important in many other situations and can overall lead to better worker micro and overall better and faster general improvement. You are maxxing worker turns.

What is "OF"?

OverFlow (hammer)

You mean chopping out Horse Archers?

yes

Espionage is new to me, eager to learn more. What does this do to Gandhi?

I'm not going to explain Espionage much at this stage. It is not all that important right now and you have far more important things to learn or reinforce. By putting all your EPs (4ept) into Gandhi you will eventually see what he is teching. Helps with teching and trading decision later, but not need to think on it more than that. It just a passive way of making use of EPs for now.

In general, you do want to make a decision on ep focus as soon as you meet more the one AI, but the idea is to focus on the best techer. Sometimes you meet a bunch of chumps so you just have to make a decision you feel is best. But there are clearly some real good techers in the game, and Mansa is the best so you would always focus on him. Right now, Gandhi is the best of this bunch.

But again, beyond that, I would not give this much thought at present.

What does it mean? What advantage does Hannibal has on me?

None. .Comment was just in reference to the fact that he's primarily focused his EP on you thus far and has accumulated quite a bit of it. Gandhi has no EP on you.