[BTS] Noble Shadow Game for @guyyee #2

[guyyee]

You can move diagonally. The idea is that moving a worker 2 tiles to a tile he starts to improve the next turn is always wasting a worker turn. Instead you move 1 tile, start an improvement and then cancel the order. Next turn you move 1 tile again and start improving the tile you want to improve. You start the second improvement exactly as fast but got a partial improvement already built on the tile in between.

Ok, I see it now. thanks

 

[sampsa]

Just to clarify, if I set the citizen to work the unimproved floodplain, wouldn't it translate to 3 since 3 is transformed into 3?

No. Working a tile always costs 2. This is why growing to work 3-yield tiles is not great.

 

[guyyee]

Working a tile always costs 2. This is why growing to work 3-yield tiles is not great.

I don't follow.

 

[sampsa]

The citizen who is working the tile eats 2 .

 

[5tephen]

City placement isn't my forte but I would go 1S of where you're planning as it kills a plains tile and preserves a grassland river tile.

Regarding your warrior exploring West, I would consider keeping him closer to home fogbusting. I don't think you'd be settling cities too far away from your capital at this point and it'll be a delay to your second city if a barb spawns on the wine for example.

 

[Fippy]

Nice t28 settler and 5t worker
Agree settle 1sw of corn, blue circle would just make you destroy a good green river tile for no reason (they rarely make sense).

Worker position is good but i would farm 1n & cancel next turn (no other option, would be cottage with pottery) and then farm corn after settling.
Chopping is never wrong but i'd want wet corn faster.

 

[guyyee]

Worker position is good but i would farm 1n & cancel next turn

Farm 1N of capital city?

 

[5tephen]

I've not been able to look at the save yet but do you have a warrior free to escort the settler in your capital?

It would be a really bad idea to move that settler next to a fogged tile with no defence. A 100 settler gobbled by a wolf is a disaster.

 

[Fippy]

Farm 1N of capital city?

Nope 1n of your worker, it's actually an important part to absorb for learning.
Only move you can do on way to corn (timed with settling, corn = so good that it should be improved asap), and you might decide that 1 fp farm for growing your cap could be useful later.
(you should never farm green tiles as general rule)

Try making this one of your habits overall, if worker is 2 tiles away from an improvement check if you can do something via action - cancel (immediately) - move on next turn.

 

[Pangaea]

(you should never farm green tiles as general rule)

Why?

 

[sampsa]

With access to floodplains and grass river, if you need any farms you should farm floodplains. Then you have both the ability to whip and grow as fast as possible OR work -neutral cottages and grow. With grass farms and fp cottages it's clunkier, as you are whipping away farms and growing slower.

 

[Fippy]

Why?

Answered by Sampsa
I know that experienced players will farm them sometimes, but for learning ones it's a good rule of thumb. Especially early 3f farms are bad improvements in 90% of cases.

 

[sampsa]

I've read many times on this forum that people don't like farming floodplains because it takes 7T. However... farming fp + cottaging grass = 7+4=11T, cottaging fp + farming grass = 5+5=10T. 1T feels like a pretty insignificant sacrifice to me, assuming you need that one farm.

 

[Pangaea]

Okay, I thought you meant more in general, so didn't consider the FP thing. Then I get what you are saying.

 

[guyyee]

Ok, here's what I did:

1. Move Worker to 1N, farmed FP for 1 turn, cancel and moved to corn tile and farm that tile
2. Settler built second city 1SW of Corn
3. Building warrior in second city

Next:

1. Is the 3rd city 1S of Cow tile a good spot?
2. Worker will be popping out in capital city - which tile should the worker improve? I'm planning to cottage either 1N or 1NE of city.
3. After finishing improving the corn in second city, which tile should the worker improve? I'm confused now about FP, cottage or farm the FP 1S of corn?
4. Next tech > Writing?
5. What should I build after popping out warrior in second city?
6. What should I build after popping out worker in first city?

Spoiler Turn 33 - 2680BC :

It would be a really bad idea to move that settler next to a fogged tile with no defence. A 100 settler gobbled by a wolf is a disaster.

Silly me, really silly of me. totally forgot about that.

Try making this one of your habits overall, if worker is 2 tiles away from an improvement check if you can do something via action - cancel (immediately) - move on next turn.

Yes, I think you guys have been hammering on that point alot. I'll be mindful to do that every time. Is there a way to check if the 1 turn tile improvement is successful because there is no user interface feedback to register that?

 

[lymond]

Ok, here's what I did:

1. Is the 3rd city 1S of Cow tile a good spot?

I'm more inclined to put 1E of wheat. You could just go on the desert as well for coastal - with lake, but 1E of wheat provides more cottage coverage. At this level, the choice does not matter much, but on higher levels it would.

2. Worker will be popping out in capital city - which tile should the worker improve? I'm planning to cottage either 1N or 1NE of city.

Mutal should focus growth after worker. PH hill mine fine for worker production, but city needs to grow now. There's two ways you could go here with Potter in very soon ..and you are EXP: Mutal should focus on growth after worker completes. PH mine fine for worker production but city needs to grow now. No specials to improve so chopping is now your focus. You could chop an expansive granary with plans to grow on whip settler, or just put chops into settler. I'm inclined to go for fast granary now.

3. After finishing improving the corn in second city, which tile should the worker improve? I'm confused now about FP, cottage or farm the FP 1S of corn?

Again, I'd go chopping here for a fast granary...both cities will rock with fast granaries.

4. Next tech > Writing?

Generally I'd say yes, but I think Hunt>AH>Writing is fine at this level since you will settle cows. It will give you Holkans - just in case - though barbs don't appear to be much issue here with such close AIs

5. What should I build after popping out warrior in second city?

Granary will likely come before warrior actually finishes...could 4>2 a settler there later into a worker...same for Mutal really

6. What should I build after popping out worker in first city?

Warrior as placeholder is fine, then granary at Pottery

Silly me, really silly of me. totally forgot about that.

Really you should have a unit near the spot where you plan to settle almost always unless the way is clear anyway. For example, settling 1E of wheat the setter would be inside your borders anyway before settling.

Yes, I think you guys have been hammering on that point alot. I'll be mindful to do that every time. Is there a way to check if the 1 turn tile improvement is successful because there is no user interface feedback to register that?

First, I'd just say that right now we are trying to get you to grasp the concept of making the most of those worker turns. The partial FP farm may or may not be relevant, but the action you took reinforces the concept. But soon you can see the relevance of this as you start putting partial turns into cottages and roads. You are squeezing out the most from that worker movement. (Note: Also, keep in mind "deadstops" when it comes to this concept. For example, say your target tile is 3 tiles away such as a forest or hill. A--->B--->C--->D where A is the tile worker is currently on and D is the deadstop target tile. Worker can do an action on tile B and then move to D)

BULL adds the Hover UI features. I thought I'd already pointed you to BULL. Maybe you did not install it or maybe you copied the files to Custom Assets but did not place the actual DLL in assets (renaming the vanilla DLL). BULL will not be active unless the DLL is active. (BULL also has the worker prechopping.)

On another note, seems like you are neglecting 0%/100% idea we have discussed before.

Cottages are not a priority but you might put down 1 in near future on an FP to get some commerce rocking. That cottage should only go on 1 of the shared FPs between Mutal and Lakama

 

[guyyee]

Turn 40/500 | 2400BC

1. Granary built in Mutal (capital)
2. Building warrior > Holkan till Mutal grows to 4 pop > then whip settler
3. Building granary in Lakamha (second city)
4. Worker chopping the Granary in Lakamha

Spoiler Turn 40/500 | 2400BC :

Plan

1. I set the 3 citizen in Mutal to work on the 2 green riverside tiles and the Wheat tile to maximize growth. Is this ok?
2. I stop the worker in 1N of Mutal from chopping to completion. Plan to send him up to FP 1NW to farm it. Is this ok?
3. When granary completes in Lakamha, whip worker.
4. Teching Hunting > AH > Writing

You could chop an expansive granary with plans to grow on whip settler, or just put chops into settler. I'm inclined to go for fast granary now.

Help me to understand the rationale here: I am laserfocusing on growth to capitalize on Pacal EXP trait which will double production speed for Granary, is that correct? If I hadn't known better, I'd have gone ahead and improved the tiles in anticipation of the growing population - since working unimproved tiles is bad?

I'm more inclined to put 1E of wheat.

My original chosen site for 3rd city (cow tile) is less ideal, because it doesn't overlap the green river tiles with capital city and also 1E of wheat has one less desert tile?

 

[5tephen]

Looking good.

Given there's a 20 difference between a warrior and a holkan which is more than another warrior again try to be sure which you need rather than assuming equivalence.

Tile management looks good on the whole. There's a floodplain 1W2N of Mutal that one of the cities should work in preference to a grassland river tile. Which city takes this probably depends if it helps either of them grow a turn faster - if it makes no difference I prioritise capital.

I would chop into a settler this turn rather than pre-chopping. Not certain this is correct but would trade a lost worker turn for a turn of lost city growth which will happen at some point anyway if whipping a settler from 4 pop to 2 pop.

Not sure you need to farm the floodplain as it is already a food positive tile and you have access to decent food specials in both cities - a cottage on that floodplain seems good as Lymond suggested.

Your third city explanation is correct and you eventually claim another riverside grass tile to the south not owned by Mutal.

 

[lymond]

Turn 40/500 | 2400BC

Help me to understand the rationale here: I am laserfocusing on growth to capitalize on Pacal EXP trait which will double production speed for Granary, is that correct? If I hadn't known better, I'd have gone ahead and improved the tiles in anticipation of the growing population - since working unimproved tiles is bad?

Well, yeah, fast granary is good if you have Pottery, especially in new cities. For Mutal, it's really a choice between settler and granary but I'd go ahead and get that gran in fast for better growth and whips later.

Yes, there is the concept of "working unimproved tiles is bad", but very early that is fine simply as you don't have the worker turns to do everything and chops are more important at this stage for those builds. Plus, the fact that you know you are going to be whipping early stage.

My original chosen site for 3rd city (cow tile) is less ideal, because it doesn't overlap the green river tiles with capital city and also 1E of wheat has one less desert tile?

Yep, the idea here is the "helper" city. You have a nice situation here where you can settle 2 good cities overlapping Mutal that can help with cottage growth, and still be functional in their own right. Settling 1S of cow does not really add much to that equation.

I must also note that being able to take advantage of settling cities closer to the cap has advantages as you move up levels as "distance from cap maintenance" increases substantially. You don't feel that pain near as much on Noble, but it is still a very good idea to practice this concept.

Also, I want to make clear - and this reinforces advice I gave in your last game - that settling these early cities is not about "oh, what will these cities look like at size 20+". It's about making the most of the early game when cities are going to be smallish for quite some time anyway due to happy cap. You reduce costs, share tiles, keep cottages growing, and maximize worker turns.

A single city only needs as many improvements that it can work at that particular time, and Mutal, for example, will soon use two citizens to run scientists. Don't spend worker turns laying doing 10 or 20 tile improvements in one city while other cities are ignored - I saw that some in your last game. Lakama and whatever city 3 is called can help grow a couple of Mutal cottages or so while Mutal is running scientists.

 

[guyyee]

Turn 51 | 1960BC

1. Signed Open Borders with all known civs
2. Made sure all the cities are working the right tiles (food focused to optimized growth)
   
3. Founded 3rd city (1E wheat)
4. Sent worker to chop granary in 3rd city (instead of improving the cow tile since the cow tile already has surplus food)
   
5. I have a worker 1NE of Mutal - I plan to send him to chop forest 1E of 3rd city (is this ok? or should he just stay put to cottage the river grassland he's standing on)
6. What should the tech path be moving forward? I'm teching Math for now.
   
7. Should I be building (or whipping) library in Mutal?
   
8. Also, what would you recommend I build in Lakamha? as you can see, I'm just building Holkan as placeholders. I'm thinking of whipping another worker.
   
9. Seems like I'm running out of good options for city #4?

Spoiler Turn51/500 | 1960BC :