Nobles' Club 183: Mansa Musa of Mali

So for a game like this, is it more fun to let the Ai come alive and a challenge rather than going for that kill early on? I think both require different types of skills. You need empire management skills for both.
In general, going for the straight kill is a "high risk, high reward" -play. If it works, the rest of the game can be a bit boring imo. You can deal even with a strong deity AI later, as jvdl showed.

Setting up a "normal empire" and deciding how to expand later doesn't commit you to anything and you have a wide variety of choices later. That is not only fun imo, but might lead to the highest win rate. Unless you are playing a difficulty level that is too easy for you. What I'm saying is that you need to start playing deity, Gumbolt. ;)
 
Had some this weekend to finish the game.

Spoiler 1715AD-1818AD :

Left the game last week on 1715AD with JC's back broken but not yet willing to cap.

Follows the tedious part of Civ to wrap it all up.
After some turns healing / regrouping, march down to Setia and Seattle and JC caps 1750AD.
Give back Seattle immediately: JC's culture has more clout than mine.

(Screenshot 1755AD, one turn after cap)
1755AD.PNG


Switch to cast to make a Great Prophet in Cuzco. Together with a saved up GS, start second GA.
Run all modern civics to upgrade all rifles to infantry, cannons to artillery and get some happiness.
Then back to slavery to whip 50 more artillery.

Declare Stalin in 1804.
Cap Stalin after taking 6 cities (me 5, JC 1) in 1818
1818AD.PNG


That's all folks!
Domination.PNG





Thanks for the game, Pangea
 
Congrats, jvdl! I envy you as your game finished in a real victory, while my victory attempt was stopped by a nonsense victory. :lol:
 
Well done JDVL.

@ Sampsa we will see about a deity game. I am playing the Pericles game at Deity but am unsure where to proceed with it. 12-13 cities but need some direction. Not really been focused enough to play it. With SGOTM on now too will be even more distracted.
 
Noble marathon 1480ad

After numerous restarts and experimentation I finally managed a fifteenth century space victory. Serfdom is pretty useful on marathon.
 

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Time for a new nobles club?
 
So this was not what I ever do with Mansa Musa but... anyway I thought I'd give this a try since everyone was doing this...

Spoiler :

I gave it a try the first time only to realize that there were no horses or metal or anything. And of course, we have the super dangerous and annoying JC to the east. No matter what this dude has to die, especially if he is my immediate next door neighbor. He settles in my face and tries to box me in, which is a no no.

So, on my 2nd try, I decided to tech Archery and go all out on Skirmishers. I stole his worker right away when he was trying to improve the corn with my 1st warrior, and then again, when he was trying to improve the copper in his capital's BFC. Absolutely imperative that he gets no metal. After dancing around a bit, stealing quite a few of his workers, I managed to capture Rome and wipe JC off the map for good. No praetorians to worry about, and now plenty of land to expand to.



Not sure if my play was optimum, and whether or not JC could be taken out earlier than I did.

Troubling sign is that DeGaulle is now right in my face to the west.

Pending enough time, I will try to finish this one. Should be fun! ^_^


Thanks for the map Pangaea!
 
Hey nilsmo,

On Immortal. Actually playing a bit right now. Kinda interesting game.
 
I haven't played Civ4 in a long while. Glad to see this series is still going strong.

Emperor/Normal, no huts/events, barbarians were given Hunting and Archery.

Spoiler :
[T0] Settled in place; the site 1E doesn't look substantially stronger, loses a forest, worker would take at least 1t longer to improve the corn. Research into Agriculture.

[T10] Agriculture finishes. I decide to skip AH for now, as sheep on grassland hills produce settlers/workers at 5 foodhammers/turn no matter if mined or pastured (EXP or IMP actually prefers the mine), and Agri/Fishing food resources seem common enough.

[T25] BW discovered, Timbuktu reaches size 3 (11 fhpt disregarding overflow). Swap production to Settler. Plan A: chop forest and whip 1 pop (11*5 +50 = 105). Plan B: improve plains wheat (on fresh water), 11*4 + 4*14 = 100. The 3t delay is easily outweighed by working a wheat farm, especially since city #2 will overlap Timbuktu's corn. Besides, going with B, the worker can actually road towards the prospective site just in time to connect the city to the trade network as it is founded.

All the other leaders met at this point (Huayna last, on this same turn, so he's the most distant -- somewhere to the west). Julius to the east, De Gaulle to the west, other guys must have started vaguely south of my position (contact with Stalin was T6). Huayna has already founded Buddhism.

[T28] Stalin founds Hinduism. Huayna's scout kindly takes to spawnbusting my anticipated city site, having barely survived combat with some animals in the immediate neighbourhood.

[T30] Decide to move worker SE - SW on finishing the plains wheat farm; this "wastes a turn" but allows me to road towards city #2 just in time to run a trade route from the very start. NW road will be needed eventually (fish site appears decent enough), but I can probably move back onto that tile without issue later.

[T31] Fishing discovered; research turns to Pottery. Enticed by the Spiritual trait I swap to Slavery early, technically a waste of money (1 gpt?) before T38. Inattentive, but swapping back would turn out worse at this point, due to the cool-down period between civic switches.

[T34] Djenné founded (see screenshot); puts production into warrior this turn, just in case I ever need to whip one in a pinch -- the southern jungle belt looks wide enough that sentries will not spawnbust it completely for a while, although Stalin lives in the area, as I've found out by now. Washington has set up shop further to the south-east, thoroughly jungled.

[T35] Worker moves into forest 1E of Timbuktu. Change production at Djenné to a worker -- the city has lots of forests, but otherwise rather poor tiles to grow onto, and I need my first worker to speed up production at Timbuktu.

[T36] Timbuktu will grow to size 4 on the next turn, with a warrior just finished. I put 6h into a work boat, planning to double-whip a worker.

[T38] Pottery discovered. Double-whip the worker first, then finish the chop for 41h of overflow.

[T39] Both workers move onto the forest grass hill 2E of Timbuktu. The city builds a granary (46/60; 5 hpt base production + 41h overflow).

[T42] The granary comes online, assisted by another chop, which yields 21h of overflow. I direct them into the work boat started earlier, which will now finish in two turns. Both workers are mining the hill, timed to finish just as Timbuktu grows back to size 3. At that point I will probably chop out another settler; which site should it claim? The prospective coastal fish/gold city will probably fall to Julius if I don't take it soon, whereas corn/pigs/gold isn't as contested; that said, fish/gold needs a border pop to work the gold. That means either monuments (thus self-teching Mysticism for rather dubious gain, as no other sites require this) or libraries (which are 3-pop whips). Contrast the southern site: the pigs will probably get devoured by rainforest before I can research AH, but even with "only" dry corn and desert gold, that city will easily pay for itself. In any case, I aim to (pre-)chop a library at Timbuktu (or Djenné?) soon.

Regarding technology, I haven't invested any beakers of note into Writing yet (which would take 13t at 100%), as I'm also considering Masonry (11t) -- which would grant me access to a pair of marble tiles, essentially riverside grassland mines when improved. (The production bonus won't come into play before Alphabet.) Djenné in particular has almost no other tiles to work with. What would you choose here?

 
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At @Krugi
Spoiler :
Looks like a solid start, and judging by your post, you are well on top of micro and timing.

Since this is Emperor, you have a little more time to claim city spots, so one option is to gung for both gold locations. The problem with particularly the northern one (in addition to the already noted point about needing a borderpop to work gold), is that you'll get border pressure with JC, and he can be rather dangerous. A priority here is to either cripple him (I didn't, some others did) or to get on his good side. I chose the latter approach by not REXing hard in his direction, and mostly going west and south instead.

Research wise, you could go for Writing now. Then you get open borders and potentially better trade routes (JC is close) and of course a Library. If you're fast, you can actually go all the way to Alpha yourself, then backfill and hopefully still land the Oracle. That means later AH and Masonry, but you may get them for free (Masonry for free is always hard when you don't have Mansa to trade with). Don't recall what I did (it's probably in a post above somewhere), but Writing does make good sense, so maybe I'd do that. You can do Masonry after that if you wish to hook up marbles early. Admittedly Djenne doesn't have a whole lot to work with, but with Writing it can at least work scientists. And there are plenty of forests to chop for a quick Oracle if you want to put it there instead of the capital (for instance to get a clean GS in the capital).

Also, do you have a chance to worker steal from somebody, for instance that blue fella in the west? :mischief:
 
Weekend meant time for the mistress...

Spoiler :

Less details this time.

T54 -- founded Kumbi Saleh (gold/corn) to avoid border tension with Julius for now. At first glance, I assume it will prove a formidable Heroic Epic city, not least due to its proximity to Washington :mischief:

T60 -- De Gaulle decides to build the Great Wall. He also has two archers guarding two cities and no metals. I remain unimpressed by his politics.

Both Timbuktu and Djenné finish their libraries at this point; I start running two scientists in the latter city. I delay the granary at Djenné (at 29/60h invested) as I'm not going to whip the scientists. Research goes into Masonry (4t), mainly since I want to reach Construction early.

T64 -- Sailing next. I aim to settle the copper north of Timbuktu (which actually turns out to be a panhandle later) at some point, just in case I lack iron. Ultimately, this plan will be reworked, but Lighthouses and trade routes still prove their worth.

T65 -- De Gaulle leaves one of his workers up for grabs; merci beaucoup. This incurs a diplomatic penalty with Stalin, but I can rectify that down the road as he hates both Washington and Sitting Bull. Airport dude will not enjoy his empire for much longer anyway -- we apologize for the inconvenience.

At some point during this period I found Gao by the northwestern fish, a commerce city that can grow a cottage for Timbuktu.

T77 -- Stalin founded Judaism on the previous turn, one of the least appropriate leader/religion combinations possible, but minor news otherwise, except that he's probably shooting for the Oracle, which I've decided to ignore. Caesar gives me Alphabet in exchange for Sailing and Mathematics (discovered this turn), after which I immediately turn to Washington and trade Sailing/Maths/Masonry for Hunting/AH/Iron Working. On the same turn, Niels Bohr (GSci) is born in Djenné; I have no use for the Compass bulb and the Academy will speed up Currency research; the choice is obvious. De Gaulle signs peace.

T79 -- Founded Walata on the island NE of Timbuktu, where it can grab the fish safely and perhaps even the grassland copper on the panhandle, unless Julius' culture makes that impossible (he will probably take all the land east of Kumbi Saleh, as well as the panhandle).

T86 -- Stalin declares war on his worst enemy, Washington. This proves to end in disaster, as he loses his city on the frontier and makes no gains. Washington must have Finnish ancestry. Sitting Bull gives me Archery and 20g for Writing, probably the last action of consequence he will take in this game -- he is hopelessly backward and probably stuck behind either Stalin or Huayna Capac, since his borders are nowhere to be found.

T97 -- Stalin sends his Hindu Missionaries, and the Malinese promptly convert, hoping to draw Julius into the Hindu block as well.

After teching Currency and Construction, I build a handful of swordsmen + catapults to eliminate De Gaulle's archers and chariots with. He kindly builds the Great Lighthouse just before I declare war. Paris falls on T115 (1 AD) and bestows the Pharos upon me, pushing my tech rate to ~160 bpt. I've also founded Niani west of Kumbi Saleh, which feeds on the pig pasture and works riverside Financial cottages. Sloppily, though, I manage to lose Gao for a turn when a chariot sneaks up on the lone warrior I garrisoned inside, which costs me the granary and lighthouse on recapture -- hubris, really, as I assumed I had full visibility on all of de Gaulle's forces near Orléans.

Julius is the biggest threat by far. Nobody can contest his land. I bribed him to declare war on Washington, planning to distract him from me in later eras since they will probably remain worst enemies for a while, but thereby I've also risked him rolling over America with his Praetorians. Stalin seems to be out of room and has been stagnating for a while, whereas Washington is tied up in his wars.

The next Great Scientist will come around soon (T118) -- I've delayed him somewhat to grow cottages at Djenné; perhaps that was not the best play; I wouldn't have done it if my leader wasn't Financial.

If there's a window for it, Washington will be next -- I'm confident I can take New York from him, as well as Stalin's former city (SW of Niani), and the shared-war diplomatic bonus will keep Julius at Pleased for a while (though that's still not enough to be safe from his plotting, if it comes to that).

T115 pictures:



The core of the empire. Niani is building a library, which I'll 2-pop whip; I need some cultural pressure on my neighbors in that area, anyway, lest they steal my cottages. Timbuktu will be able to grow again soon; in the meantime, it can contribute an additional worker with whom to integrate the underdeveloped French provinces.



Paris captured. The war has been rather cozy, as De Gaulle builds few units and I don't exactly fear his chariots speckled across two poor cities (who settles on top of gold?), but he must go down before anyone techs Feudalism (Huayna exempt, as he's Buddhist, which means that nobody east of his borders likes him). The fish resource N-NW of Paris appears worth settling, more so thanks to the Great Lighthouse.

Gao will 2-pop whip the new granary in a few turns; Orléans also has a granary queued at 34/60h if I remember correctly.
 
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If you have to choose where to put your resources, war with Washington or settling the fish to the North of Paris, I think it should definitely be war with Washington.
 
@dutchfire
Spoiler :
I would have had the resources for both, but I actually lost the settler to a pair of barbarian galleys. :lol: The first one damaged the escorting trireme sufficiently to allow the second one to target the galley. As I knew that Huayna would soon claim the spot (he had captured the barbarian city that would block his access), I didn't bother with another settler.


Domination in 1660 AD.
Spoiler :

On T117, Huayna demands Maths. I comply, which puts him at Cautious, thus allowing me to trade Currency for Monarchy and 30g. I delay the Hereditary Rule revolt to the next turn, on which I bulb Philosophy for Pacifism. I fiddle with SPI for a while, running Caste System in 5-turn intervals, to speed up some GPP.

With the capture of Tours, De Gaulle makes his exit on T129. I send a few forces westward to take a barbarian city (Sakae) that borders both Sitting Bull and Huayna; meanwhile, the bulk of the army heads south for Washington. I get Horseback Riding from Julius, shortening my supply lines in the upcoming war; for the same reason, I produce catapults first, as horse archers can quickly replace swordsmen later. T132 sees me switch to Bureaucracy, and the empire breaks 350 bpt on T136, with a Great Scientist for Education on the horizon. Nobody else has researched either Philosophy or Civil Service, nor Literature for that matter. I decide to put Liberalism on the backburner, preserving the option to take either Rifling or Steel after a Chemistry double-bulb. In the end I take Rifling in 1260 AD (!), having researched Machinery, Feudalism, Engineering, Guilds, Banking, Gunpowder, Music, Printing Press, Economics (free GM) and Replaceable Parts myself -- nobody has anything of note for trade. Par for the course, actually; I always encounter this mid-game research gap on Emperor. The computer-controlled civilizations will suddenly spike in GNP roughly when Printing Press comes around (to them, that is), but nothing happens before that (well, except that this encompasses the Cuir/Cav window -- see below).

I begin to neglect city management as I take Washington's northern cities (New York and Rostov), when Julius decides to jump in. He absolutely rolls over eastern America. In reaction, I switch research to Feudalism, bribe Stalin into the war to distract the still-sizable forces defending the American core, and capture the capital soon after. Thus I obtain his instrument of surrender, but not before the Apostolic Palace, which Comrade Koba absurdly presides over, formally calls the entire planet to war with Washington.

Unfortunately, Stalin starts to plot (at Pleased) almost immediately after the war, just as the Golden Age of Cavalry is dawning. I had originally planned a romp across the Wild West, as both Huayna and Sitting Bull are severely lacking in military tech and units, but now I'm preparing for a preventive strike against Russia instead. An army of about 20 cavs stands ready to attack Moscow from the west; the Russian capital is close to Tours, and its capture will threaten no less than three Russian cities further inland. A smaller force operates in the Niani-Rostov region, where I intend to capture and hold Yekaterinburg (west of Niani). A third strike force will be assembled at Washington, my southernmost city, to move against Novgorod (a natural chokepoint) and the outlying cities.

While I capture no less than six workers on declaration, Stalin has already prepared a large (if hopelessly Medieval, Gunpowder-lacking) stack for me, which retakes Yekaterinburg and threatens Niani. I attempt a somewhat clumsy "defense in depth", constantly retreating stacks of 5-6 cavalry behind my cities to snipe wandering smaller stacks, covering them with rifles, then repeating the process. This works well, to my surprise, especially since the computer likes to split off catapults en masse while the bulk of the forces idles inside a frontier city. I do lose Niani for a turn, but I'll gladly exchange a library for Stalin's entire army. He doesn't last long after that. I obtain the Mausoleum and some marginal wonders.

Since Julius isn't plotting (he has dropped to Cautious -- diplomacy could have been better) and he keeps his stack within my field of vision at Chicago, east of Washington, I decide to hit Sitting Bull next. His cities fall in short order, but one turn before I can take his last vestige on the mainland, having just rejected his offer of capitulation, Caesar vassalizes him and moves in against me.

The war is fun due to the sheer size of his empire (and accordingly, his army). The garrison I kept at Washington pays off, as its cannons and rifles prove instrumental in its defense -- drafting/whipping alone wouldn't have cut it. I hit spread-out troops advancing towards the city, reserving Barrage cannons for the stack -- even if I lose some battles, the survivors will be weakened enough that they cannot keep up with drafted rifles. In the meantime, I manage to raze the city of Setia east of Kumbi Saleh. Good thing I didn't keep it, as a gargantuan stack appears from the fog, heading for Kumbi Saleh, but by now my armies have returned from the campaign against Sitting Bull. I wait for the stack to crawl towards the city, then hit it with six cannons and about 40 rifles/cavalry, wiping it off the map and allowing me to strike anywhere I want. Therefore, I ignore the border fortress of Philadelphia at first; indeed, after I have taken Navajo further inland, Julius feels pressured to move out his pikemen against small stacks of cavalry, and I don't fear them on the grasslands. All the while, groups of fresh cavalry can quickly approach Philadelphia.

Railroad comes in around this point, the final tech I found necessary; I turn off research and automate all my workers.

His defenses are still strong enough that I can barely reach Rome by the time he starts fielding riflemen of his own, and he refuses to capitulate even after I've taken Antium and everything south of Rome, so I have to attack Huayna for Domination. The narrow "Tiwanaku corridor" west of Lyons leads directly towards Cuzco; unless Huayna has large reserves in the area to challenge my 50-cav stack, his capital can be taken within four turns of the declaration. I fire a 2-GP golden age for good measure.

As it turns out, his reserves in the area consist of four longbows, a pike, and a crossbow. To his credit, I spy some cuirassiers on the turn that I take Cuzco (which was marginally better-defended than the cities on the way), which pushes me over the 64% edge in land area as its cultural pressure vanishes from what used to be Sitting Bull's frontier cities.

T136 save attached (before war with Washington), as well as the replay.

Thanks for the map, @Pangaea!
 

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I didn't originally think that this would be the kind of start I like on Immortal, but with replies from my other topic I got some confidence to try it out. Didn't really go as I had planned originally, but I think I should be able to win quite easily.

Spoiler :
I managed to grab a better cottage spot down south at Gao. The plan is to move my palace there and make a massive bureau capital. Doesn't have much food apart from the pigs, unfortunately, but I'll see how it goes. For some reason the tech speed appears to be super slow this game. I expected more from Huayna, and I guess JC just got a little too much maintenance to chew on, since he got good land but a boatload of cities. Washington DoWed De Gaulle even though I infected both of them with Confucianism after oracling that. Since there is neither Copper nor Horses anywhere, I had to abandon the plan of rushing France early, but with Americas DoW I plan to jump in with Swords and Cats. So far, the only win condition is that JC doesn't come after me with Praets. He seems a little pissy.


Unfortunately I'm not smart enough to link images properly so...: http://imgur.com/a/zSRJr
 
@unas876 I don't mean to discourage you, but from that screenshot I can't really see why you are confident on winning easily. The biggest problem is that your empire is very underdeveloped for T110. Annoyed, big Julius is another issue you need to deal with.

I would need to see a save to give more feedback, but in general it looks like you are undervaluing food a lot. Those lakes around Timbuktu are 3:food:3:commerce: with a lighthouse and should be worked asap. You should be able to get :)-resources via trade at this point.
 
@unas876 I don't mean to discourage you, but from that screenshot I can't really see why you are confident on winning easily. The biggest problem is that your empire is very underdeveloped for T110. Annoyed, big Julius is another issue you need to deal with.

I would need to see a save to give more feedback, but in general it looks like you are undervaluing food a lot. Those lakes around Timbuktu are 3:food:3:commerce: with a lighthouse and should be worked asap. You should be able to get :)-resources via trade at this point.

I would say the underdevelopment of my tiles is mostly down to not getting IW for ages. Like I said, the tech pace in this game seemed awfully slow. And pretty much everything down south is just jungle. Tropical climate :sad:

I don't have a lighthouse yet anywhere either, because I also got that with Alpha. I didn't bother self-teching it this time because I already had traderoutes with all my neighbors via roads and I was kinda late on the Oracle, so I didn't dare any detour. After the Oracle I went for Maths as tradebait as I was expecting Alpha quickly, but it just didn't come forever feels like... Would you say I should have gone for Sailing even though I didn't need it to connect anything or get traderoutes? Plus I already have wet corn, wheat and sheep in my capital.

Happy recources were not available to trade either, iircc me and Washington are the only ones who even have Calendar. But I did get Monarchy, so I guess I should have built a few warriors earlier. But stuff got in the way, like whipping a monastery to convert Washington so he would attract some of the hate from Stalin, Huayna and JC and building a settler to settle an Island city for three resources which got stolen by JC last second...

Maybe the underdevelopment also comes from me building stuff like libraries everywhere, but I felt like that was necessary in order to not lose my tiles (or regain them already) in the border cities. And obviously I facepalmed a handful of times at my own worker micro, which is far from perfect :crazyeye:. I think I currently have 6 workers, which might be too few, but I didn't build more because until IW I literally didn't know what to do with them anymore, since I didn't even have Pottery.

I'm still confident in the win because I'm starting to tech at a reasonable rate and I am kinda leading in tech together with France, who I'm gonna crush as soon as I get the first Cat out, unless I see the red fist of JC pop up, but even that I should be able to deal with unless he DoWs in the next say 10-12 turns. I believe I can switch into his religion though and there are plenty of frowny faces on the diplo board :lol:
I didn't switch to his religion yet because he's the only one in it and making Stalin angry didn't seem great either, plus De Gaulle doesn't trade at annoyed, as I had to find out when he required me to gift him a bunch of stuff before I could even get Alpha.
 
Considering you haven't chosen a religion yet, how come JC is annoyed at you? That's a very serious sign btw, I'd have red alarm bells going off in every direction :scared: If JC declares, you're basically dead, especially without metal. At Annoyed, there is a 90% chance JC will declare war.

As for the jungle down south, grab a pair of scissors, or an axe :hmm::shifty:
 
Considering you haven't chosen a religion yet, how come JC is annoyed at you? That's a very serious sign btw, I'd have red alarm bells going off in every direction :scared: If JC declares, you're basically dead, especially without metal. At Annoyed, there is a 90% chance JC will declare war.

As for the jungle down south, grab a pair of scissors, or an axe :hmm::shifty:

JC is probably annoyed bcs I refused to stop trading with SB, which I probably should have done, since SB isn't a good trading partner anyway. See I'm kinda lacking the experience. Watching every single one of AZs videos probably wasn't enough.
I can probably switch into JCs religion, and I'm not worst enemy yet. I also do have metal, I found iron in the north west.
 
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