Nobles' Club 215: Hammurabi of Babylon

[krikav]

T212

Spoiler :

Well, he finally died.

Still a while before anyone launches their spaceship.
Mansa have gone culture I think, but still 70 turns left on his third city (In free speech)

18 cities, and room for 7-9 more decent ones (and a halfdozen no-food-fillers).
Got a whole lot of heavily promoted maces that one coult promote to grenadiers and go snipe all of Roseys coastal wonderstuffed cities.
Should be quite doable!

400 units killed.
4 GGenerals settled in capital (that has heroic now), and a fifth is waiting to make a Military academy.

So the map is at least in theory beatable on deity, but it takes a much more skilled player than me to do it first try and to do it blind.
Won't play this one to finish, I was content with the notification "The Aztec civilization has been destroyed.". ^_^

 

[pandamancer]

Great to be back again!

A bit rusty so I will try this in IMM.

Spoiler My thoughts on the starting postion and leader :

Not really a bad location to settle but I want to explore what lies south. (I smell hidden resource nearby). Oh Mansa is present.

One for the biggest strengths of Hammurabi is the starting techs. Agri and Wheel IMO is one of the most flexible starting techs. It is one tech away from AH which allows Pasture and reveals Horses thereby early chariots. Another path is BW which synergizes with his AGG trait. Early pottery is also possible if you think the capital has a potential.

I really do not like bowman. personally I would prefer axeman or chariots for choking. From experience, I am more successful choking AIs with chariots rather than bowman. Another passive use of bowman is to "fake" your power rating. Defensively, bowman are actually good especially on a forest hill spot. Too bad they are not strengthen by the AGG trait.

Gardens are below average. Sometimes building it in order to give away the health resources for a better trade. Not really useful until factories come to play.

Overall, as a whole package Hammurabi is an below average/average leader. It is just that he is consistent in all ages. Without a big empire, his ORG trait cannot shine.

Spoiler Here is how it went :

Settled 1SW and went for AH. The food in the capital is very generous so I decided to temporarily mine the pig. Met only Monty for a long time so giving me the impression that this is semi isolated. Found horses north, so my second city is 2W3N of the capital. The land aside from the capital sucked. There is simply no rivers and happy resources except for the incense. So to prevent me from being broke before the third city, I went for pottery before BW. Good thing there is a stone nearby. At first, I am reluctant to try pyramids because of Monty nearby but it seems this is the only way to go (rep happiness, specialist beakers).

Completed Pyramids in 900BC, went for mathematics because I thought I could snatched CoL for chicken-pizza (a wonder to "fake" power rating up) and confucianism (Monty did not found a religion ). tried to grab 2N5E in order not to be overwhelmed by Monty. Did not open borders from him because he might know I lacked defenses. Preemptively build wall/barracks in the border cities to "fake" the power rating up. Unfortunately Confucianism was discovered early so grab HG for consolation instead.

Realizing that getting semi isolated, Monty is going for me sooner or later. Detoured for Iron Working, discovered iron and founded another city nearby. At this stage, Monty is getting annoyed at me but no red fist yet. So stacking up axes for the upcoming defensive battle...since I refuse to tech hunting > archery, hopefully promoted swords can deal chariots/HA

For a while, some strange idea came to me. Given that my capital produce four engineer . Would it make sense to switch to literature, pop a great engineer and rush the great Lib. That will synergize with the representation civic and boost my and future (and of course deny the AIs from the other continent). And before the plan was completed and without warning. Monty declared war At that time I have 5 cities, Monty has around 8-10.

Defending is quite easy as long as unit number ratio lies between 2:1/2.5:1 and in good defensive position, knowing that Monty has high attack courage. We need to remember to lure him to attack on the well positioned areas and not allow him to consolidate his army to a massive stack of doom. Later the great library was founded on 50AD. The funny thing is there were some great generals popping up...not from me or Monty but from regions unknown. Hopefully wars from the foreign land will slow down their tech rate. Sooner, I got my first great general. I did make a super medic while sharing some of the experience points with new units to make them veterans. The city Akkad (the 2nd city) while producing axes, partially build the Moai for more . This is also my future HE city. I also made my capital the NE city.

Still after winning several defensive battles, Monty simply does not want to accept peace. With some fail in scouting in my part, he moved to my other city. Luckily the right border city was able to hold on for another turn before the reinforcements arrive. The second/third great general arrived at this point. Around this time, he is starting to build catapults. I have not choice but to lure him on open ground and decimate his siege units before he merge all of his units to attack the city. some of the veteran units were lost but I was still able to hold my ground. Also added two more cities in the south for silver and future whale resource.

Finally wiping out his SoD, pushing the power rating to 0.7. He accepts peace at 820AD. Gifting alphabet, aesthetics to put him to Cautious. While on my part, I am waiting for the second GS for astro bulb and finishing the NE and HE (1st GE goes into Great Lib, 2nd GS goes into academy, 3rd and 4th GS goes into Astro).

This is a period of uneasy peace, he ask for horses. I decided to give him for a few turns to tech uninterrupted and to open borders with him. Finally found the other continent and first to circumnavigate. Everyone is of different religion, no wonder so much warring has occurred. As usual Mansa is leading so much. I think Mansa also got Liberalism. The others with the exception of WvO is about as advanced as me.

In this relative time of peace, I started to build trebs with my HE city. Other cities started to build maces. Some axes were also upgraded to maces. Finally declared war on Monty because he is going for guilds. Traded for archery to make sure my longbows will defend maces from incoming xbows (which was mistake for i traded gunpowder the next turn). Taken his 6 cities and he capitulated in 1460AD.



At this point in game, I believe this is still very winnable... Although Mansa is leading in tech, he does not have Sistine Chapel. So his cultural victory may take for a while. In the meantime, let's toy Monty with privateers

 

[krikav]

Nice to have you back @pandamancer !

Spoiler :

Sounds like you had a pretty nice game. It's a tough map so well done!

Chicken Itza and power rating, that sounds like a new trick to me, care to explain abit?
Rushbuying GLib sounds like it does make some sense, but it's not an idea I would have come up with. Whenever I got a GEng I settled him.
Bulbing machinery might be an option, as it speeds up optics!

 

[pandamancer]

@krikav

Spoiler :

Here it is, in the soldiers section

https://www.civfanatics.com/civ4/st...orkings-of-the-demographics-screen-explained/

Archers 3000soldiers,
Bowman 4000soldiers,
Chariots/Spears 4000soldiers
Axes 6000soldiers,
Swords, Jaguar and HA 6000soldiers
Chichen Itza 8000soldiers
Great Wall 10000soldiers
Barracks 3000soldiers
Wall 2000soldiers
And some techs like archery also adds to the soldier count....

But the point is moot, Monty ALWAYS declares war when annoyed. And also this only works if your soldiers rating ratio is higher than the AI... I dont remember the ratio.

 

[Nick723]

Saw this game on Lain's thread and decided to give it a go. Edit: Immortal NH/NE

Spoiler Up to Optics :

Settled 1SW as that seemed to have the most mystery tiles and was rewarded with the second pig.

Early tech path was AH->mining->masonry->BW, I figured this might play out a bit like an Always War game and so wanted the Great Wall. Took a rather risky path building it in my second city, but I wanted to use the border pop from it to get the fish online.

Spoiler The Great Wall T51 :

Once the great wall was in, went fishing->writing->pottery. Whipped a 3rd settler inbetween getting the pyramids, went north east for the pigs / corn spot. Cities 4 (south west for corn and share pigs) and 5 north west for clams followed.

Spoiler T65 Pyramids :

Delayed the running of scientists in Akkad to ensure I got a GS as my first GP (academy in capital). But then ended up with a GSpy (at 50% ish odds) for number 2. Monty founded Hinduism and it spread to me, adopting him got him to pleased and no attack yet. I think the Great Wall may have slowed him down slightly compared to other games too, perhaps. Continued towards optics whilst building up a small defensive force, Monty had started massing an army but nothing to be afraid of just yet. Traded Stone for Gems, then when Monty got his stone reluctantly gave up horses for the gems instead.

Spoiler T115 GSpy :

Continued to optics, T124 I think (forgot to take an exact save). Monty now has a big force, I think I'm in a bit of danger of being overrun and need to whip a few xbows sharpish.

Spoiler State of Empire T126 :

Spoiler Monty's stack - I currently have 6 Bowmen and a Crosssbowman in Dur-K :

Not sure on next steps. Depends a bit what I can trade for I guess, and when Monty declares. Thoughts were to use GSpy for a golden age, trade for CoL and get in two scientists for Astro.
If all goes well I could probably wait for cuirassiers to take out Monty. If I can get feudalism before he declares that'd be very helpful, especially as there may be a few horse archers coming in the mix now (have only seen chariots so far).

 

[Pangaea]

OMG. Great minds and all that

Have been playing this one today as well. Currently 500BC.

Spoiler :

Did browse through a few early spoilers to see what it was about (the recent Lain thread mention), so knew we were semi-isolated with Monty. Decided to not make any contingency plans for that, and play as I (probably) normally would have.

Moved warrior onto the pig hill for a look, and decided to settle SW. Tough decision really due to the Stone showing up. Upon settling another pig showed up, which was nice.

Spoiler Settling :

Started with AH, and after that went Pottery. Gotta love those nice FPs. Mining-BW after that, which meant the first two settlers were slow-produced.

Initial warrior almost died to a lion between corn and pigs to the NE, and I parked him there healing and then fog-busting. Sent the first produced warrior south to try to fogbust that area. It looked small so I thought one guy would do it. Later it dawned on me it was bigger, though I haven't seen it all yet. Lost a warrior to one of the barb archers, and have killed 1 or two more (warrior is now anti-archery promoted).

Settled SW first, near the corn. Second city went tothe eastern coast, for the stone (plus later fish). Good thing the initial warrior checked out that particular coast tile, otherwise I may have killed the fish. That always sucks. Next city went NW on the PH. Can grab Clam later, and helps cottages for the capital, and can borrow hills too. Also figured this could be a good attack spot for Monty, if he declared early.

We got by without Archery for a long time, but after Writing in T61 I didn't dare any more. No copper after BW, and Chariots wouldn't help much against Monty attacking (he tends to come with spears too), and I was concerned about barbs too. The south was poorly protected if the warrior guarding the southern forest fell.

Fears of any early Monty DOW was calmed somewhat by his lack of Slavery until T60 (iirc). T61 he bragged about Axemen, and T73 about Jaguars. Same turn this happened, which was a worry.

Spoiler :

Looks like too much of a spike to be IW alone, so maybe he whipped some Axes or Jaguars too.

However, no incoming Aztec stack yet.

Was nervous clicking end turn each time around here, but we managed to salvage the Pyramids in T81. It felt late, but not sure when it usually goes. Pretty sure it can go earlier. And some cities on the other continent were freakin' huge! Size 12 in 1000BC is nuts. Do they have all the happiness resources over there?

It's now T95 / 500BC, and I still don't see a Monty stack coming. He has also become Pleased, so if he isn't plotting yet (no fist shows in semi-iso), he may actually not do it. I'm almost disappointed he hasn't declared yet, because I wanted to see if these Bowmen are up to the task. But if he declares now, he'll probably bring a huge stack, with 9 cities already, and I've spotted several settlers moving north, plus 1-2 barb cities up there. So he can get 12-14 cities probably. Depends how much more land is available up north. A Monty that big is scary. Even if this is "only" Immortal.

Just finished Math, and have queued up Currency. Tempting to try HAs and go on the offensive, but probably best to put that off. He's bound to be a tough cookie with just spamming HAs. Lucky that Iron showed up within reach of Stone city. It actually popped borders that very turn, so I sent a worker down to improve it. Screw MP warriors when Monty is near.

Spoiler 500BC overview :

Going by the early spoilers I read, probably very lucky that Monty hasn't declared yet. As a consequence, this looks fairly promising, but we'll see. Still time for the Fat Lady.

Judaism went early on the other continent, plus Hinduism and Confucianism. Monty grabbed Buddhism, and sent three missionaries to us when we opened borders.

Just in case Monty is secretly plotting, first build in recently settled Sippar (Pigs NE) is Walls. He's likely to hit either that city, or Clam-Horse.

 

[krikav]

Nice to see that people are checking this map out!

@Nick723 Nice with stone, of all the tries I have done, I don't think I got much use of the stone.

@Pangaea AH->Pottery is nice, getting a pair of cottages down super early is so sweet!
I think I rarely tried any other approach than AH->Mining, because the early production to handle barb pressure at the start was so crucial.
Iirc I went archery quite early on most tries I did too.

 

[Pangaea]

I think I rarely tried any other approach than AH->Mining, because the early production to handle barb pressure at the start was so crucial.
Iirc I went archery quite early on most tries I did too.

Did you play on Deity? That's like a different game, so early Archery is probably mandatory here. Barbs can invade around T35 then, which is not pleasant.

 

[krikav]

Yes, I have an affinity for self-torture.

 

[Pangaea]

Well... it was bound to happen

Spoiler :

Things are looking bright as we get to 1AD. Monty is doing his thing: researching poorly and somehow struggling to get through a barb hill city up NW.

Spoiler :

At some point Monty cancelled the Clam for Gems trade we'd had going for a while, because he got his own source of Clams now. In 25BC I decided to trade away our Horses, which I think was worth it.

Spoiler :

The situation still looks calm, as two warriors are roaming about his land and keeping a view on the defenders in his cities. Nothing to be alarmed about so far. I'm working on a hopeful Astro double bulb. The capital is polluted from Mids, so the 2nd guy is only at 75%. Sadly we get a Great Engineer. Normally good news, but not here. May have to bulb Engineering with him. I grab some failgold from Moai, which is erected in the eastern stone city. Will be a good production spot. Maybe Heroic Epic? Things are looking good to get Optics by T129-130. I move a couple of defenders up north to check out the two fronts again.

Hmm, this is different. And his power spike is really climbing here.

Spoiler :

We stole his hill tile and the worker will chop it into a spear next turn. I wanted some horse defence, now when we gave it away.

Balls.

Spoiler :

Next turn...

He steals the worker and invades instantly. No warning at all, and the blasted workers managed to build a road there instead (they were mining). Otherwise I'd have had a 1-turn warning. No spear either, which would have been useful. Half the cities are unhappy, the capital with 3 , so I 3-popped the partly built Forge. Military units everywhere now... Optics and caravels will have to wait a little. For all I know, there is a train of units moving towards our front, and he could be coming at both the east and west.

Started moving a couple of units from east to west last turn, when I saw the stack, but it could be dicey. The good thing is that he has a catapult in the initial invading force, which will hopefully buy me enough time to reinforce. The city does have two fortified Shock Axes and a Bow, so it's not totally naked.

At least we the horses back

 

[Izuul]

@Pangaea

Spoiler :

Do you have Machinery yet?

 

[Nick723]

Nice stuff @Pangaea - indeed it appears great minds think alike!

Your situation is very similar to mine, except you have the misfortune of being declared on slightly earlier. I like the horse trade a lot - I only managed to pick up gems for it as I did it before he got calendar.

I continued a bit last night, will post a write up soon, however I can reveal

Spoiler :

I died Nothing a quick reload can’t solve however, I only had to go back to the turn before as I rather foolishly

Spoiler :

Let the catapults attack me. I was surprised quite how badly that went, but Monty took Dur-K for basically no loss. I had something like 5 xbows and 5 bowmen that he just chewed through.

However I reloaded and attacked with the xbows first, the catapults are the stack defenders so easy to pick them off. Then he suicides the rest of the stack the next turn.
Amazing what a difference simple warfare nous makes - I’m still really bad at this stuff!

 

[krikav]

Amazing what a difference simple warfare nous makes - I’m still really bad at this stuff!

I'm a sucker for medieval warfare, just because I think there is so much nuances in promotions and stack composition going on.

 

[Izuul]

The rock - paper - scissors aspect is the best with the medieval units.

 

[Pangaea]

Your situation is very similar to mine, except you have the misfortune of being declared on slightly earlier.

Yes, it looked very familiar when I checked out your spoiler. When did he attack you in the end?

Just one more turn.... Oh, look at the time

Spoiler :

Monty did something unexpected. Not sure if I've seen it before, or it must be rare. He went a little back and forth over in the west, invading (to the forest hill) then pulling back. I thought he may be bringing several mini-stacks together before invading properly.

He didn't. He swung round and invades in the east instead.

Spoiler :

This was a few turns after he invaded, so we had got decent reinforcements there, plus some units coming over (again) from the western front. But had he attacked instantly, like a human would, the city may well have fallen.

We did have Machinery, but didn't have any Xbows upon the DOW.

Monty did spend a few turns bombing down culture, and I almost got screwed (like happened with Nick). City had 10% defence yet, and I figured his three catapults would bomb it down, then the normal units attack that turn and get mauled. Instead he slammed all three catas into us. Going by the health bars when watching each combat live, they looked badly wounded (red, barely visible health bars).

Spoiler :

Nice! Went very well, despite the cata slams. Looking at the odds, it wasn't as close as I thought from the action shots. 2.4%, 0.7%, 2.8% and the like (catas had 25% though).

Next turn he comes with a new stack and attacks, but we hold that one off too. He wanted to talk peace after the initial slaughter, but wanted the city. Haha, no dude.

In between I managed to complete Optics and get out two caravels. The travel was very long, but eventually they found land.

Spoiler :

Forgot to take pictures about this, but Mansa and Saladin are in war. Mansa and Roosevelt has teched very fast, and Roosevelt got up Notre Dame already, Music was lost around 1AD. Soon later Mansa goes Mercantilism. Why must the timing for this always be so brutal. I'm struggling to get to Astro, and the other continent goes NO TRADES PLEASE!!!

Willem was the last one found, and he had Paper. Got the map from him, and circumnavigation. Tight group over there, with many different religions, so I'm surprised there hasn't been more conflict. Over some turns I traded a fair bit, including with both Mansa and Saladin. Figured the traded with worst enemy would reduce pretty quickly. We'll see... But I really wanted Calendar, Alpha, CoL, and later also got Aesthetics and Literature (but self-teched Poly and Mono to try to avoid too early trade blockoffs).

Roosevelt is the only one with Engineering so far, so I'm counting on the fingers whether to spend the GE to bulb it or not (he can only do about 1000 of the 1600 :beakers:

Actually forgot for a few turns, but have now peaced out with Monty in exchange for Alpha. Then gave him Compass or something like that for Monarchy, so Feudalism is unlocked. Everybody has it. Even Monty got it just about when the war ended. I hoped for a strong offensive Trebuchet push, and will probably still do that, but it will cost now when he can upgrade all those units to Longbows. But seems like I should use this army for something, as it costs a lot just sitting about.

Okay, fire up the game again and take a screenshot of the current army and tech overview. 680AD.

Spoiler :

Ooops, didn't pull the Monarchy trigger yet. All his money disappeared, maybe next turn? Think I'll hold off on OR switch until Buro is unlocked too (need Astro first).

Will continue the game and see how it goes, would like to kill off Monty one way or another. Looks like Lib will be lost, probably to Willem (blasted favourite civic drives him there). They've been really fast for an Immortal game. Or maybe it just feels slow on my end. Tons of wonders over there though. Roosevelt with Colossus, Great Lighthouse, Stonehenge and Notre Dame certainly helps him out!

 

[Pangaea]

I'm a sucker for medieval warfare, just because I think there is so much nuances in promotions and stack composition going on.

I like this aspect too. It's a lot more interesting than "spam Cuirs or Rifles everywhere". It becomes a pain once the AIs get Engineering, though, and they get Castles everywhere. But if you can hit them before that, like probably this game, it can be a lot of fun, also on the defensive (and counters).

 

[Nick723]

Spoiler Continuing...(T153) :

After my slight *ahem* hiccup with dealing with Monty, I continued on my merry way. He had declared on Turn 132. I whipped walls and another couple of xbows, and with my new found knowledge of how to actually do medieval warfare (or at least do it slightly better) I prevailed against his stack. I also had a strike of good luck the same turn, a GS popped in the capital at ~60% odds.

Spoiler Invasion and GSci T132 :

Spoiler Victory second time around! :

I met the other continent and quite frankly, the trades were amazing. Nobody even had compass, and a couple didn't have machinery either. I'm not sure how this had happened, based on other write ups it seems that this is not the norm... @AcaMetis perhaps this map is playing out at last as you expected! I think I managed to get: calendar, code of laws, alphabet, horseback riding, monarchy, monotheism, construction, feudalism without even giving away Optics!

Spoiler Trade situation after initial trades :

Went into the Golden Age, got the next Great Scientist in 5 and double bulbed Astro to get it Turn 142. A few trades with the other continent were really helpful to alleviate the happiness issues.
Snagged civil service in a trade just before the end of the GA to go into Bureau, and also picked up drama/lit from optics. Trade options somewhat drying up now, but can't complain!

Also expanded down south, kept in caste to do easy border pops and just slow building units is enough for now.

In the meantime, continued against Monty. He seems to have never ending stacks, but I was able to make some progress and take his nearest city. It has Gems / Sugar so will be very helpful long term once the cultural pressure eases. He'll now take peace, but I'm not sure what the best course of action is

Spoiler Monty Capture T153 :

Spoiler Trade screen :

What should I do next? I was originally leaning towards Cuirassiers, but I'm a long way off them and it's not like I'll get many trades on the way there. I still need Music, Nationalism, Military Tradition and Gunpowder (and therefor either Guilds or Education). Monty's also extremely backward (although he has just got Longbows) but surely going for Trebs and taking him out is the way forward here?

The other thing I'm not sure about is whether it's worth the turn to revolt out of Hinduism? I don't get much from it, and it's souring relations... Else I could doubldedown on spreading it and go Theocracy...hmmm. Advice requested!

 

[Nick723]

Yes, it looked very familiar when I checked out your spoiler. When did he attack you in the end?

Just one more turn.... Oh, look at the time

Spoiler :

Monty did something unexpected. Not sure if I've seen it before, or it must be rare. He went a little back and forth over in the west, invading (to the forest hill) then pulling back. I thought he may be bringing several mini-stacks together before invading properly.

He didn't. He swung round and invades in the east instead.

Spoiler :

View attachment 581328
This was a few turns after he invaded, so we had got decent reinforcements there, plus some units coming over (again) from the western front. But had he attacked instantly, like a human would, the city may well have fallen.

We did have Machinery, but didn't have any Xbows upon the DOW.

Monty did spend a few turns bombing down culture, and I almost got screwed (like happened with Nick). City had 10% defence yet, and I figured his three catapults would bomb it down, then the normal units attack that turn and get mauled. Instead he slammed all three catas into us. Going by the health bars when watching each combat live, they looked badly wounded (red, barely visible health bars).

Spoiler :

View attachment 581329

Nice! Went very well, despite the cata slams. Looking at the odds, it wasn't as close as I thought from the action shots. 2.4%, 0.7%, 2.8% and the like (catas had 25% though).

Next turn he comes with a new stack and attacks, but we hold that one off too. He wanted to talk peace after the initial slaughter, but wanted the city. Haha, no dude.

In between I managed to complete Optics and get out two caravels. The travel was very long, but eventually they found land.

Spoiler :

Forgot to take pictures about this, but Mansa and Saladin are in war. Mansa and Roosevelt has teched very fast, and Roosevelt got up Notre Dame already, Music was lost around 1AD. Soon later Mansa goes Mercantilism. Why must the timing for this always be so brutal. I'm struggling to get to Astro, and the other continent goes NO TRADES PLEASE!!!

Willem was the last one found, and he had Paper. Got the map from him, and circumnavigation. Tight group over there, with many different religions, so I'm surprised there hasn't been more conflict. Over some turns I traded a fair bit, including with both Mansa and Saladin. Figured the traded with worst enemy would reduce pretty quickly. We'll see... But I really wanted Calendar, Alpha, CoL, and later also got Aesthetics and Literature (but self-teched Poly and Mono to try to avoid too early trade blockoffs).

Roosevelt is the only one with Engineering so far, so I'm counting on the fingers whether to spend the GE to bulb it or not (he can only do about 1000 of the 1600 :beakers:

Actually forgot for a few turns, but have now peaced out with Monty in exchange for Alpha. Then gave him Compass or something like that for Monarchy, so Feudalism is unlocked. Everybody has it. Even Monty got it just about when the war ended. I hoped for a strong offensive Trebuchet push, and will probably still do that, but it will cost now when he can upgrade all those units to Longbows. But seems like I should use this army for something, as it costs a lot just sitting about.

Okay, fire up the game again and take a screenshot of the current army and tech overview. 680AD.

Spoiler :

Ooops, didn't pull the Monarchy trigger yet. All his money disappeared, maybe next turn? Think I'll hold off on OR switch until Buro is unlocked too (need Astro first).

View attachment 581330

View attachment 581331

Will continue the game and see how it goes, would like to kill off Monty one way or another. Looks like Lib will be lost, probably to Willem (blasted favourite civic drives him there). They've been really fast for an Immortal game. Or maybe it just feels slow on my end. Tons of wonders over there though. Roosevelt with Colossus, Great Lighthouse, Stonehenge and Notre Dame certainly helps him out!

Nice - looks like our games are in a similar space still. I was lucky to get some better trades from compass, but I suspect you’ll catch up by the time you trade around optics as my options were limited there.

Is your plan to hit Monty with Trebs?

 

[earthy]

@Pangaea

Spoiler :

I was too nervous to trade Monty horse in my game, but it appears to have worked out for you quite well. He sure loves his chariots! On my most recent attempt I did end up using the G.Eng to bulb engineering, and I think it was a good choice. The sooner you can make ground the better, because when Monty gets up to maces and crossbows of his own, it gets a lot harder to take him out. The only other options I can think of would be a GA, which is underwhelming with so few cities, and rushing Taj, which isn't even guaranteed and won't help you for quite some time. I suppose it could be worth using him for a GA if you can really crank the scientists out for an earlier astro, but for that I would at least want an engineering trade to be available.

@Nick723

Spoiler :

Crossbows are very strong here since Monty has no horse. He still lacks metal casting and civil service, so you have somewhat of a window before he hits maces and gets good enough odds to put your xbows at risk. I believe that hitting him sooner rather than later would be best, so I'd lean towards a late engineering attack. One thing to look out for is that Monty has very high attack courage, so you'll want to be careful about how you position your units. It's easy to get careless and lose a stack against those suicidal leaders.

 

[Pangaea]

Have read all spoilers now, and some interesting games. Kinda cool how differently the exact same map can play, how slow/fast the other continent can be, and how different the religion situation can shake out.

@earthy and @Nick723

Spoiler :

Possibly premature, but I self-teched Construction (plus Poly and Mono). May have been able to get that too with Compass. Still some nice trades, and I especially liked that Mansa was pretty much alone with CoL, so I could use that a little too, and can still grab Monarchy with it (unless I do it with Monty for e.g. Compass). Still hope Engineering will go around so I can grab it with Optics+something, but can't wait much longer. Think you are correct, earthy, that it's a good option to bulb Engineering with the 'unlucky' GEngineer. It's what I tentatively planned when he spawned, but I hoped he would get more of the tech than measly 1000-ish/1600 . But I do think the way forward here is to get out some trebuchets and declare on Monty. Shame he has Longbows already, he was slower to that in quite a few other games, but it's better to take him out now than when he gets crossbows and maces.

Reckon that is the best call in your game too, Nick. Monty is still very backwards, and he has great land. The jungle is probably gone for the most part, he has probably improved all those sugars in your game too, so once they come out of revolt you'll gain several more happiness resources, and you can trade away 5(!!) sugars for whatever the other guys have. I spotted several golds over there for example, which will be great with Forges.

For both our games, I'm a little undecided about the tactics. It can be easier when you first ruin an army and then go on the offensive directly, as the AI won't be able to resupply to defend properly. But here Monty has been in peace for a little while and probably built up new stacks. So maybe the best idea is to declare, and wait till he invades. Then ruin his stack (hopefully!) and THEN invade Aztec lands while he is weaker. I'll send some guys into his territory for a peek once I fire up the game again. Maybe make some chariots.

As an aside, don't think I'll trade away horses again now, because Monty has HBR, and Horse Archers is a much worse proposition than Chariots. He can easily snipe a city. Will just have to bide my time until the new GS is out for the Astro bulb around T150, and get more happiness that way. The Incense from the Calendar trade already helps a little.