Nobles' Club 246: Isabella of Spain

[Fish Man]

@Fish Man

Spoiler :

1. That many GP late is still very impressive. Amsterdam is really quite a city though! And yes I forgot about NE... Golden Age I did remember.

2. 3. I've gone heavy on workshops before with SP/Caste with amazing results production-wise but it never occurred to me that if I built Wealth in an empire with 1000+ hammers that it amounts to a massive amount of gold. I notice you ran your slider at 100% with a surplus and you didn't even build Wealth in every city. I build Wealth all the time in the early and mid-game but less so late which is a huge mistake I realize. Building Research too of course.

You're right that my main mistake is wrong tile improvements.

Spoiler :

I'm glad you made the connection, then! Hopefully if you decide to try to race yourself to space anytime soon, you will find this niche pursuit as fun as I do.

 

[sylvanllewelyn]

Someone please check my math.

Late game grassland workshops, [ +1 (base) + 1 (guilds) + 1 (chemistry) + 1 (caste system) ] * [1.1 (communism)] * [1(base) + 0.25(forge) + 0.25(factory) + 0.50(power) + 0.1(free religion)] = 9.24 science each. Assume laboratory is too late.

Late game grassland town, [ +1 (cottage) + 1 (hamlet) + 1 (village) + 1 (town) + 1 (printing press) + 2 (free speech) ] * [ 1(base) + 0.25(library) + 0.1 (free religion)] = 9.45 science each. Assume you don't have the production to build the university or observatory in a cottage city. Riverside, universal suffrage, financial, golden age... helps towns.

So, obviously, I will not transform mature towns into workshops, except in the ironworks city.

Cottages take ages to grow. 10-20-40 turns. Printing press does not kick in until village. Free speech does not kick in until town. Cottages take a LONG time to catch up.

Assuming sub-T270 (1800AD) space victory, any rule of thumb cutoff dates for workshops versus cottages?

No conclusion, I am just rambling.

 

[Fish Man]

Someone please check my math.

Late game grassland workshops, [ +1 (base) + 1 (guilds) + 1 (chemistry) + 1 (caste system) ] * [1.1 (communism)] * [1(base) + 0.25(forge) + 0.25(factory) + 0.50(power) + 0.1(free religion)] = 9.24 science each. Assume laboratory is too late.

Late game grassland town, [ +1 (cottage) + 1 (hamlet) + 1 (village) + 1 (town) + 1 (printing press) + 2 (free speech) ] * [ 1(base) + 0.25(library) + 0.1 (free religion)] = 9.45 science each. Assume you don't have the production to build the university or observatory in a cottage city. Riverside, universal suffrage, financial, golden age... helps towns.

So, obviously, I will not transform mature towns into workshops, except in the ironworks city.

Cottages take ages to grow. 10-20-40 turns. Printing press does not kick in until village. Free speech does not kick in until town. Cottages take a LONG time to catch up.

Assuming sub-T270 (1800AD) space victory, any rule of thumb cutoff dates for workshops versus cottages?

No conclusion, I am just rambling.

I usually don't run free speech, because bureaucracy is just better unless you have an absurd number of towns (which you will not, because they take so long to mature). I started my first real war on this particular map with 99 turns to go until I had to finish the spaceship (camping poor Hammy doesn't count). There is just not enough time to build and mature enough towns in that time period to make it worth the effort, especially seeing as how AIs love to build random tile improvements that aren't cottages on good cottageable tiles, or worse, bulldoze their riverside towns for farms/workshops. By the time you capture the land, then wait 5-10 turns for cities to go out of resistance, and then send workers to improve it, there will not be enough time until the end of the game to fully mature most cottages.

Secondly, while workshops give their full yield immediately with the right techs/civics, towns take ages to reach their full tile yield. In the first few dozen turns of their lifespan you are better or just as well off working literal coast tiles. The raw yields you miss from sitting around and twiddling your thumbs, waiting for those cottages to grow, are simply not worth it.

Finally - the benefit of transforming into an almost purely hammer economy is that, when it comes time to build the spaceship parts, your cities can quickly wrap them up in 6-8 turns max because the production going towards science/wealth is interchangeable with the production towards projects and buildings. That means that with hammers, you can build the parts AND research effectively, whereas with towns, you can only research, not build. Given that they have roughly equal yields most of the time, this alone makes a hammer economy vastly more efficient. Your hundreds of towns are gonna make for an engine that takes double the time to finish.

The best rule of thumb I go by is like this: in the medieval era or before, treat conquered cities like you would treat self-founded cities in the early game. Cottage riverside tiles, as those give good commerce right off the bat; otherwise, farm/workshop the rest. Outside the capital, most players including deity-level heavy hitters like @sampsa , @Lain, and @Fippy already mostly don't cottagespam non-river tiles, because they simply aren't worth the investment needed to pay off, even in self-founded cities (correct me if I'm wrong). So why would you try to cover a city you conquer 75 turns before you want to win the game in an improvement that takes about that long just to reach its full potential?

And for cities you conquer after communism, just spam workshops and watermills - the instant yields are worth so much more, because the golden rule of this game is that immediate payoff, here in the form of +4 hammers/turn, is far more valuable than a slightly larger payoff in the far-off future (+5-7 commerce/turn), especially if you have to endure a long period of time where the yield is paltry. This same rationale is why we tell new players to not be afraid to chop most of their forests before mathematics, despite +30h being a not insignificant amount greater than +20h per chop. Sure, maybe in the long, long, run, ignoring even the fact that no amount of commerce in the world can put together a spaceship, towns may yield more. But the grand sum of yield you obtain from working a workshop for 80 turns is far, FAR greater than working a measly cottage for 10, a hamlet for 20, a village for 40, and only then a town for like maybe 10 turns before you finish teching altogether.

 

[Fippy]

Sometimes if the city can work nothing else, Fishman.
Non-river cottages aren't great (without FIN at least), but there can be cities that have only empty green tiles along with their food.
An example would be that i don't want to spend 60h on a lighthouse, and if workers are free they can cottage green tiles rather than using coast.
But they are surely lower priority for worker turns

 

[Fish Man]

Sometimes if the city can work nothing else, Fishman.
Non-river cottages aren't great (without FIN at least), but there can be cities that have only empty green tiles along with their food.
An example would be that i don't want to spend 60h on a lighthouse, and if workers are free they can cottage green tiles rather than using coast.
But they are surely lower priority for worker turns

The only time when a lighthouse isn’t worth it is when a coastal city has no fish. And why would you want to settle a coastal city without fish?

In all seriousness...I agree, which is why I said “most of the time”. Unless fin, riverless cottages should be an option of last resort, and definitely not to be seen as the key driver of your economy when going to space. If they’re barely worth it in self-founded ancient era cities, they wouldn’t be at all in cities conquered less than 100 turns from finishing the game.

 

[sampsa]

Yeah, I used to be pretty strict about no non-river non-FIN grass cottages. However, they can be better than other things (running 1-2specs), because growing is so much better than not growing. So nowadays I most of the time find myself building some 21-cottages. Farms are often better, if available. I think this is one of the many things I learned from @Lain 's videos.

 

[dankok8]

Two more questions @Fish Man:

Spoiler :

Why not run Pacifism instead of Free Religion? At this point you're so much bigger than the other AI's you don't care about diplo penalties from a state religion I would imagine. +100% GPP with Pacifism is nothing to scoff at and you can always delete some obsolete units.

Would the tech order you followed dramatically change with fewer cities say 10 or even 15?

 

[chinemol]

Hey, there. First post. Wanted to sincerely thank AcaMetis and this community for making my quarantine worthwhile. Love playing Noble with huts and Events to just take it easy (except for the inca and french previous posts wich were a constant struggle). sure will give this a try

 

[Nick723]

I usually don't run free speech, because bureaucracy is just better unless you have an absurd number of towns (which you will not, because they take so long to mature). I started my first real war on this particular map with 99 turns to go until I had to finish the spaceship (camping poor Hammy doesn't count). There is just not enough time to build and mature enough towns in that time period to make it worth the effort, especially seeing as how AIs love to build random tile improvements that aren't cottages on good cottageable tiles, or worse, bulldoze their riverside towns for farms/workshops. By the time you capture the land, then wait 5-10 turns for cities to go out of resistance, and then send workers to improve it, there will not be enough time until the end of the game to fully mature most cottages.

Secondly, while workshops give their full yield immediately with the right techs/civics, towns take ages to reach their full tile yield. In the first few dozen turns of their lifespan you are better or just as well off working literal coast tiles. The raw yields you miss from sitting around and twiddling your thumbs, waiting for those cottages to grow, are simply not worth it.

Finally - the benefit of transforming into an almost purely hammer economy is that, when it comes time to build the spaceship parts, your cities can quickly wrap them up in 6-8 turns max because the production going towards science/wealth is interchangeable with the production towards projects and buildings. That means that with hammers, you can build the parts AND research effectively, whereas with towns, you can only research, not build. Given that they have roughly equal yields most of the time, this alone makes a hammer economy vastly more efficient. Your hundreds of towns are gonna make for an engine that takes double the time to finish.

The best rule of thumb I go by is like this: in the medieval era or before, treat conquered cities like you would treat self-founded cities in the early game. Cottage riverside tiles, as those give good commerce right off the bat; otherwise, farm/workshop the rest. Outside the capital, most players including deity-level heavy hitters like @sampsa , @Lain, and @Fippy already mostly don't cottagespam non-river tiles, because they simply aren't worth the investment needed to pay off, even in self-founded cities (correct me if I'm wrong). So why would you try to cover a city you conquer 75 turns before you want to win the game in an improvement that takes about that long just to reach its full potential?

And for cities you conquer after communism, just spam workshops and watermills - the instant yields are worth so much more, because the golden rule of this game is that immediate payoff, here in the form of +4 hammers/turn, is far more valuable than a slightly larger payoff in the far-off future (+5-7 commerce/turn), especially if you have to endure a long period of time where the yield is paltry. This same rationale is why we tell new players to not be afraid to chop most of their forests before mathematics, despite +30h being a not insignificant amount greater than +20h per chop. Sure, maybe in the long, long, run, ignoring even the fact that no amount of commerce in the world can put together a spaceship, towns may yield more. But the grand sum of yield you obtain from working a workshop for 80 turns is far, FAR greater than working a measly cottage for 10, a hamlet for 20, a village for 40, and only then a town for like maybe 10 turns before you finish teching altogether.

Thanks Fishman for such a great guide! Having tried it out a few times recently, I have to say the workshop / state property economy is so much superior to what I was trying before. I was following beforethe seductive maths of town = 7c + 100% (library / uni / observatory / lab) > workshop at 4h + 100% (forge + factory + power) but in practice it never pans out like that.

I have now managed to win a few space races on immortal thanks to similar tactics (although none as quick as this). So thank you!

 

[Nick723]

Two more questions @Fish Man:

Spoiler :

Why not run Pacifism instead of Free Religion? At this point you're so much bigger than the other AI's you don't care about diplo penalties from a state religion I would imagine. +100% GPP with Pacifism is nothing to scoff at and you can always delete some obsolete units.

Would the tech order you followed dramatically change with fewer cities say 10 or even 15?

I don’t know about Fish Man’s game, but in my wins I was only at 15 or so cities (1 war only, or in one case none but then I had very favourable land distribution). For me anyway, bee-lining communism and then assembly line is still top priority as it allows you to get your late game economy setup.

In my games I was also in free religion, getting attacked may not be the end of the world but is still a massive pain and requires quite a diversion of resources to fight.

 

[Zavior]

Just wanted to say, a big thanks to Fish Man for the the writeup! It was a really nice piece to read. I've been lurking around these forums for the last 15(20?) years for these pieces of knowledge, and this forum rarely gives me up! A big thanks to all the people like you!

 

[Fish Man]

Two more questions @Fish Man:

Spoiler :

Why not run Pacifism instead of Free Religion? At this point you're so much bigger than the other AI's you don't care about diplo penalties from a state religion I would imagine. +100% GPP with Pacifism is nothing to scoff at and you can always delete some obsolete units.

Would the tech order you followed dramatically change with fewer cities say 10 or even 15?

Pacifism, like cottagespam, is one of those things that sounds nice in theory but really doesn't work out when you check the math.

Pacifism only works if you have the state religion in your targeted city. At this point your cities are enough of a mishmash of religions that no matter what religion you choose, most of your cities won't benefit from whatever state religion you adopt. So you can benefit your NE city and maybe a few other cities with pacifism (which are mostly irrelevant)...OK. So let's say that instead of running FR for the last 75 turns of the game before launch, we run pacifism. And let's say, very generously, we can always run 10 specialists in our NE city. That's 30 extra GPP per turn from pacifism over about 70 turns (during the last handful of turns you're just building parts, which makes great people irrelevant), which translates to 2100 GPP. That SOUNDS like a lot, but after your 10th or so GP, is only enough to generate one more, because they get 200GPP more expensive incrementally after the 10th.

OK, you say. You have an extra GS or GM you can burn for thousands of /...that isn't so bad, right? Well, actually, no, it's pretty useless. Here's why: because the extra great person you generate from running pacifism comes at the very end of the game, when you're done researching and done building even for the most part. All the GP you would've generated before, you could've done so without pacifism. If you're set too launch at around t239, getting a random GS or GM at, say, t235 doesn't do anything! This is because the you get from a trade mission arrives too late for it to finance taking your cities off building wealth and into building research for long enough to obtain the last spaceship tech(s) faster. If you get, say, 2100 gold from a trade mission before you finish researching, then you have to take your cities off building wealth and switch to building research to uses that surplus. But you can't use it all if you're 2 turns from finishing ecology...and even if you somehow get the GM earlier, that may not even make a difference in how long it takes to research that, given how expensive lategame techs are. It's even worse with the GS...after fusion/biology, all great scientists not applicable to a golden age are useless. This is because the GS bulb priority will go into dead-end useless techs like flight and laser, completely unneeded for the spaceship. So, to generate an extra GS when the lategame costs are so high and to do it so long before the game actually ends...most of the time, it's impossible even for a literal powerhouse GP farm like Amsterdam to do so. And keep in mind that you can't run 10 specialists ALL the time; sometimes you have to work hammer tiles to build labs and spaceship parts, especially near the end, if your GP farm is also a high-hammer city.

Alright, let's assume that by some miracle you get the ONE extra great person via pacifism AND use it in time to get the full benefit, AND it saves you one extra turn to finishing research (which is all that it can save, lategame beaker costs being so high). So that's what you gain; now let's look at what you lose. First of all is the +10% research bonus, which does not apply to hammers. Nevertheless, I've done some calculations and deduced that we are getting an extra 225 beakers/turn by the endgame due to that 10% bonus (and let's say it increases to 250 during a golden age). Since beaker rate remains roughly constant past a certain point in the endgame, let's say that for 10 turns before researching the last tech you get 250 bpt extra from FR, and 10 turns before that you get an extra 200 bpt. That means that, for just a 20-turn period before research is complete, you already get 4500 beakers from free religion - and that's not accounting for the many, many turns of research you save before that, as well as the key points where researching X (assembly line, electricity, plastics, etc.) a turn earlier from FR can give or unlock you some crucial bonus/building for one extra turn, that promptly snowballs. Whereas pacifism only yields its greatest benefit, in such a circumstance, very late - if it has even any bearing at all. Remember, in civ 4, the earlier an advantage comes, the better. FR gives both a far LARGER benefit, and one that takes effect IMMEDIATELY.

There are also some other things FR does better than pacifism. First, the happiness - it may seem irrelevant, but the extra happiness from religion can be crucial in offsetting the motherland and eventually emancipation anger. It may not seem much, but sometimes it can mean the difference between 1 or 2 angry citizens and none - which certainly accumulates over time. Also, the problem with deleting units is that after conquest you do need the rest of your army to prevent revolts and fend off potential attacks. Especially when the last AI standing is a crazy attack dog like Monty who will sometimes plot despite being like 3 eras behind. And revolts - they can really ruin things, self-explanatory. So if you keep these units, you may need to pay a lot more for them.

In conclusion: pacifism bad, free religion good.

For the tech order change...I would still aim to lib state property and do as I did here. SP is still plenty powerful even if with less land. And the techs that I listed are important for space and should go in the order I listed for the reasons I listed, no matter how big or small your empire is.

 

[Fish Man]

Just wanted to say, a big thanks to Obsolete for the the writeup! It was a really nice piece to read. I've been lurking around these forums for the last 15(20?) years for these pieces of knowledge, and this forum rarely gives me up! A big thanks to all the people like you!

I may be missing something here, but who’s obsolete?

 

[Pangaea]

Not been here for an age. Didn't even remember where to put the saves or any shortcuts (any moment I'll happen upon the map notes thingy!), so am rusty to the core. But off we go.

Immortal T54 (wanted a fourth city, then forgot to save)

Spoiler :

Settled on PH and went for Agri, then AH. After that I've been unsure every step of the way, and am finally doing BW now. Need to cut down those forests, but there is so much else I want as well. Spain is a pain in the arse with techs. Think the next city will go 1W of gold, just to grab it, but those fishy places could be nice too. Or postpone them even more for backfilling.

Spoiler :

Had expected more religious spread by now, so maybe it was a mistake to put rice-ville there instead of 1S, but I wanted more green tiles instead of coast. Think I have to postpone the 5th city until the economy is better, because one more might crash it. Suspect I'll ignore Oracle and try for Pyramids instead. GLH would have been good here too, but too late now.

Way more workers than I'm used to so early (4), but once BW is in they'll be able to do something useful again.

 

[Fish Man]

Not been here for an age. Didn't even remember where to put the saves or any shortcuts (any moment I'll happen upon the map notes thingy!), so am rusty to the core. But off we go.

Immortal T54 (wanted a fourth city, then forgot to save)

Spoiler :

Settled on PH and went for Agri, then AH. After that I've been unsure every step of the way, and am finally doing BW now. Need to cut down those forests, but there is so much else I want as well. Spain is a pain in the arse with techs. Think the next city will go 1W of gold, just to grab it, but those fishy places could be nice too. Or postpone them even more for backfilling.

Spoiler :

Had expected more religious spread by now, so maybe it was a mistake to put rice-ville there instead of 1S, but I wanted more green tiles instead of coast. Think I have to postpone the 5th city until the economy is better, because one more might crash it. Suspect I'll ignore Oracle and try for Pyramids instead. GLH would have been good here too, but too late now.

Way more workers than I'm used to so early (4), but once BW is in they'll be able to do something useful again.

Welcome back!

Your start looks pretty good, though I would've settled the south seafood before the dry rice. Hope you have fun with this one; it's a really nice map.

 

[FlyinJohnnyL]

I may be missing something here, but who’s obsolete?

I'm not sure why he referenced Obsolete, but he was a player here when civ 4 first came out. He was a big proponent of the wonder economy (NOT Wonderbread economy), and he'd win immortal and deity level games by spamming wonders. That was back when we all tried to "specialize" everything. Specialist economy vs. cottage economy (DaveMcW) vs. Wonder Economy (Obsolete) vs. Espionage Economy (this wasn't nearly as big of a thing though). People settled "military cities" "commerce cities", etc. You still see people reading old threads and trying to employ these outdated methodologies.

It was a fun time when the forum was really alive though. That being said, I'm still amazed this forum is as active as it is, nearly 15 years after release.

Oh, and welcome back Pangaea!

 

[Zavior]

I may be missing something here, but who’s obsolete?

Sorry, that was a brainfart on my part. No clue why I wrote the wrong name.

 

[Pangaea]

Your start looks pretty good, though I would've settled the south seafood before the dry rice. Hope you have fun with this one; it's a really nice map.

But surely fish is the worst tile in the game?

 

[Pangaea]

Think I'll call it a day, but got some more stuff done after the football.

T82. Mids (a while ago) +Writing (now)

Spoiler :

Met everybody, Saladin is plotting. Barb city hasn't fallen yet, it's not great, but the lone chariot is keeping an eye on matters.

Inched to Writing this turn. Happiness sorted for the time with Mids+Rep, and gold helps too. Whipped a settler for backfill clams, and queued up some libraries. Economy isn't great, so think I need to research with Rep scientists. Usually don't get 6 cities by 1000BC, but couldn't hold back (and not much to build anyway). Got almost 200 failgold from Mids, so that helped.

I'm sure some of you went to war early here as it's certainly possible, but I may sit back and tech up to Conqs. They're fun. Got up some walls too, just in case I want to get castles (almost never do, but nice if you want siege war).

Willem has Alpha, but I have nothing to trade with. No religion spread yet, which is rather disappointing given we are spiritual and could have swapped with no fuss. If nothing else, free borders pops would be welcome.

Spoiler :

 

[Pangaea]

Looks like this is a dead thread now and people have moved on, but I'll write down this update at least. Maybe somebody will find it interesting with more regular updates in the very early game, since so much happens then that impacts the entire game.

Immortal NH/NE. 1AD.

Spoiler :

Saladin declared on Monty a while ago, but they recently peaced out after Saladin wasted a couple of stacks without really getting anywhere. Victoria plotted too, probably on Monty, but recently stopped. I agreed to flip into Judaism by Victoria, since Willem had already sent three missionaries my way. Built and sent a few axes to the barb city (roughly under the scorelist), and I got it ahead of Hammy's nose (61% and 90% wins). Finally got Sailing in trade (sure took a while!), whipped out a settler and galley, and put a city off-shore. Great for trade routes, although of less importance then due to proper trade with the AIs.

Great Lighthouse took forever to be built, so I made a late stab at it. Actually got it in T111. Probably not a record, but definitely very late for Immortal. More commonly, it goes around 1000BC (iirc?). Civil Service is online and I replaced a village with a farm to irrigate all those corns. The northern one is a long route so not sure if I'll bother. Borders will pop any moment in Coppergold and the rice city, so then I can irrigate the rice there. Stole wine from Hammy, which was nice.

Music and the free Great Artist in next turn, which can be a 'free' Golden Age. Don't think I'll bother with any of the marble wonders since I don't have it. Let the others wrestle it out over MoM and whatnot. With Pyramids (currently running 8 Rep scientists) and GLH, it's not like I need any more helping hands. Pretty much the two most powerful wonders in the game.

Hardly a very revolutionary idea, but will go for Conquistadors. Victoria did get super-early Longbows (around T80), but other than that people are pretty backwards for now. And Conqs are super-charged Cuirs, who are already awesome as a break-out unit. We have horses and iron, so it's the natural move. Shame about those walls, but castles won't be needed, and I had to build something that wasn't units to try to keep down costs in the early game.

Would have liked a better spot for the Heroic Epic, but currently I'm thinking about it in the capital. It can put it up in decent time thanks to Buro bonuses, and I won't bother with National Epic nor Oxford in this game, so may as well use the capital. The barb city could actually have been a pretty decent spot for it, but only if it was possible to irrigate the grasslands (which it realistically isn't due to Zara and desert).

Have explored most of the map, and noticed a desert island in the far east, before a barb galley ruined the explore boat (trapped due to closed borders with Monty). Also looks like Hammy has founded a city further west, so there must be at least one more island over there. I can't get there due to ocean tiles, which he can cross due to his culture).

Wish I had more happiness resources, but am hoping I can nab some from Saladin once he improves those silks and spices. He got the lion share of everything
Zara too, but he always REXes like a bat out of hell. Willem, as usual, stayed on 3 cities for 3500 years or something. Weird guy. But still techs like a pro.