Nobles' Club 366: Justinian I of Byzantium

[skarpa]

I decided to make this my first try on Emperor - I shouldn't be surprised to find it tougher! Not sure how much that is me, the extra barbs the more expensive tech or this map.

Turn 81

Spoiler :

Just had to settle 2 cities in an emergency as Willie was about to settle Nicea or near enough. My IW has only just come through so I hadn't realised the importance of that location. I was planning to settle on the coast for the fish and the cow. Settler is waiting by Antioch for my econ to recover a little. Antioch was going to be settled later but I wanted to completely block Willie for the time being. I've 5 workers and more will be whipped once the whip anger has subsided and the pop has recovered a bit.

Going back to the start I moved settler to 1S of Constantinople thinking I'd prob settle there. Then next turn two blue circles turned up on the coast NW and SSE and settling there could spoil fish so I ended up moving 1N into some plains woods which cost me another turn before settling. I like the location well enough but not sure if it was worth losing a couple of turns for.

After that 3 cities as soon as I could - close in trying to take advantage of cap border pops and river trade. Tech was Ag, Pot (early cottages seemed vital but I've no been able to nuture them as I would have liked), Hunting for the Ivory happiness, and then AH to make sure I could work cows to N when I settled Adi. Mining then BW as slavery was needed asap and chopping some wood would help. No copper and barb defence was becoming critical with my warrior fogbusters being killed by archers and a spearman from South. Tech rate was collapsing and I couldn't wait for IW even though clearly necessary and besides units would take longer to built so just got archery in time to make a defence with a bit of whipping. I then teched fish cos it was cheap and useful. Now on writing

Lack of happiness resources has kept cities small too - I need Mon and HR but settling more cities seems more important so Sailing next and hopefully Willie will trade alpha at some point. We've just opened borders and I hope I can convert to Judaism soon. Not too worried he'll attack but same religion will help. I know CRE culture will be oppressive when I butt up borders soon so Libraries and Monuments when I can. I've a couple archers FB and exploring further Soutn. I'll send more soon but supply was becoming costly. Piggies and stone looks interesting so far, presumably this late I'll find a barb city somewhere too.

So far so good... but then it always is until it ain't

 

[skarpa]

Well, that didn't go well, I lost when EVERYONE declared war on me around Turn 300 or so. And when they started to land with Rifles (and Infantry!! ) against my muskets, I knew I was doomed. I must have not timed the invasion of WVO right, as he vassaled himself to Shaka while I was also taking his land. Which also then cut off my army from helping to defend againsy Sury, who attacked from the west. I find with IMP leaders with a good bit of land it's difficult to avoid crashing your economy by over expanding

Monarch to 1AD, how am I doing? All advice gratefully received

Spoiler :

Didn't have a great start when I lost out on Myst by 1 turn but have managed to block WVO off and keep him to 6 cities.
I'm torn between using IMP to spam settlers and fill out the available land without crashing the economy
WVO isn't a good man for trading monoploy Techs, is he?

Do you mean Meditation? Justin starts with Myst, no? I'm told not to bother going for an early religion - this makes sense as even with myst as a step up it's pure luck whether someone goes for the same one as you are going for and on higher levels the AI has a discount.

The man in the north is well stingey and well ahead of me on tech (this is my first game on Emperor and it's a shock). I scraped together Alpha around 100AD as my econ is pretty crashed and I'll crash it further as soon as I settle more land as I will (I managed to block the man in the North off like you). At least now I can build research and maybe tech stealing is possible. I do have several military resources he does not so I hope to invade long before turn 300. Hopefully before meeting any other AIs. He's teching for LBs but they can't stop an attack with enough elepults

 

[skarpa]

Spoiler :

Per Willem's page in Know Thy Enemy, WIllem is willing to trade techs that at least 15% of the board knows. If you trade him a tech than at least 2/7 or ~28.5% of the board knows the tech, meaning Willem is more than willing to trade it to others. In addition Willem has one of the highest limits for tech trading before WFYABTA kicks in, and is willing to trade techs as low as Annoyed, so all told you can expect him to trade techs often and continue to do so for a while.

That all said Willem is no stranger to espionage, so that monopoly tech might end up in his hands regardless. If Willem is investing his espionage points into you you might want to either take measures against tech stealing, or if he's willing to hand over a king's ransom for a monopoly tech, consider taking the offer.

the trouble here is Willem is isolated along with the player, He's way ahead of me teching and wants HBR which I have but won't trade anything he's got

 

[skarpa]

1000BC - T75

Spoiler :

Trying to cut off Willem from my rightful belongings. Detoured for Archery to fence off the barbs. Now iron working to get some juice out of horrible horse city. It's on a hill int the hope to get to the rice but W. is beating me to it.

View attachment 707953

I love being CRE myself but it's a pain to go up against.

 

[skarpa]

Turn 150 of try number 8ish - really struggled with this map - I think this is my best try yet, but it's back to square one I think now

Spoiler :

Well I'd tried just about everything on this map and run into continuous problems mostly no happiness and not being able to tech.

I've kept my turn 2 settling on the plains - I do like the position and even though I could settle it a turn earlier it doesn't seem fair without doing the moves that lead me to chose it. This time I concentrated on getting 3 cities out asap. FBing had to wait. So few warriors until then. Messed around with the position of 2nd city. Decided coast was pointless as I've been unable to find the bkrs for fishing etc. It's new place ain't great but could share Caps' abundance of food and maybe a cottage and another with city number 3. Again not a great place but without IW it was tough to find anywhere. That at least could share cottages with cap but required AH to get the food - awkward when other techs are much needed too.

Path was Ag, Hunt (ivory for early - in fact all - the happiness available), Pot (early cottages I've found to be a must have to keep teching)
Then Mine and BW for the all important chops and slavery. AH so I could settle 3rd city. Without copper and facing lots of jungle in the way of settling IW was a must and took ages but just got in it in time to settle 4th city Nicea and turn back WVO settler. The time it took to tech IW and the cost of new city meant econ was wrecked and I'd already decided in this situation that 4 cities had to be sufficient until whenever I could get to Cataphracts and kill WVO. He's not attacked me this time. He wasn't exactly hard to see off before but it was an annoyance. I also could skip Mas and Con and grab Med, Ph and Mon instead. I'd played with a load of small cities before at pre HR Happy cap and got nowhere. Seemed cheaper and better to dev existing cities to the max even if I needed to make more units.

After IW was Arch - The barb rush has been savage every time I played this map and my warriors were getting chopped up. Moreover the number of units were killing my econ so once enough archers were out there to FB close in I disbanded a whole bunch of warriors. I then mistakenly teched Mas having forgotten I wasn't going for Math and Con for phants and pults. This meant HBR was next. Another mistake really cos I was nowhere near being able to afford to settle the horses. I just built a settler and some infras just in case WVO attacked and I needed them in a hurry. As it was borders eventually popped so I could get the horses without another city. Good cos that one would be foodless.

Then rush Med, PH and Mon to get HR and allow cities to grow to their full potential.

Since the barbs eased off and HA coming online I pushed my FB screen out to the South as far as my archers could cover.

WVO eventually became willing to trade Alpha and Fishing but I've lagged so far behind I've never had anything he didn't and alpha has not been that crucial to me. Teching has been easier this try but that's not saying much. I teched Feud and then MC and Mach to get Guilds next. WVO is on Optics

So 800Ad, I'm 4 turns off Mach and prob 20 off Guilds. I'm about to cap and raze a misplaced barb city in the far south and I'm prepping the area around the pigs and stone for another city now I've cleared the jungle on the piggies. Once I have Cataphracts I'll kill WVO. Earlier tries (see below) have convinced me it'll be better to grab Willie's juicy 7 cities and then colonise the South. Hopefully I'll have him dead before any other AI gets Astro.

For comparison here's a screen of another game 43 turns later where I prioritised settling as much as poss - I'm only just on Mach and WVO is on Astro. Effective tech rate is about 125bkrs a turn - 20% and showing no real signs of improving and half of that is from build reseach. I've lost the race to Lib for the first time in ages (I may need to get used to that!) and I'm nowhere near being able to attack WVO

Well, in my 'best' ie latest game it's 1260 and I've just dowed WVO and taken Utrecht. Lost virtually all my pults and will have to wait for more to arrive. Not having Eng has impeded this badly as had not teching math and Con until after Guilds - I'd forgotten that so had no stockpile ready. I'm just not happy with this game. I really dunno why but teching has proved really difficult on Emperor. It may be this map. Maybe I ought to drop back down to Monarch.

 

[jorissimo]

Turn 150 of try number 8ish - really struggled with this map - I think this is my best try yet, but it's back to square one I think now

Spoiler :

View attachment 714367

Well I'd tried just about everything on this map and run into continuous problems mostly no happiness and not being able to tech.

I've kept my turn 2 settling on the plains - I do like the position and even though I could settle it a turn earlier it doesn't seem fair without doing the moves that lead me to chose it. This time I concentrated on getting 3 cities out asap. FBing had to wait. So few warriors until then. Messed around with the position of 2nd city. Decided coast was pointless as I've been unable to find the bkrs for fishing etc. It's new place ain't great but could share Caps' abundance of food and maybe a cottage and another with city number 3. Again not a great place but without IW it was tough to find anywhere. That at least could share cottages with cap but required AH to get the food - awkward when other techs are much needed too.

Path was Ag, Hunt (ivory for early - in fact all - the happiness available), Pot (early cottages I've found to be a must have to keep teching)
Then Mine and BW for the all important chops and slavery. AH so I could settle 3rd city. Without copper and facing lots of jungle in the way of settling IW was a must and took ages but just got in it in time to settle 4th city Nicea and turn back WVO settler. The time it took to tech IW and the cost of new city meant econ was wrecked and I'd already decided in this situation that 4 cities had to be sufficient until whenever I could get to Cataphracts and kill WVO. He's not attacked me this time. He wasn't exactly hard to see off before but it was an annoyance. I also could skip Mas and Con and grab Med, Ph and Mon instead. I'd played with a load of small cities before at pre HR Happy cap and got nowhere. Seemed cheaper and better to dev existing cities to the max even if I needed to make more units.

After IW was Arch - The barb rush has been savage every time I played this map and my warriors were getting chopped up. Moreover the number of units were killing my econ so once enough archers were out there to FB close in I disbanded a whole bunch of warriors. I then mistakenly teched Mas having forgotten I wasn't going for Math and Con for phants and pults. This meant HBR was next. Another mistake really cos I was nowhere near being able to afford to settle the horses. I just built a settler and some infras just in case WVO attacked and I needed them in a hurry. As it was borders eventually popped so I could get the horses without another city. Good cos that one would be foodless.

Then rush Med, PH and Mon to get HR and allow cities to grow to their full potential.

Since the barbs eased off and HA coming online I pushed my FB screen out to the South as far as my archers could cover.

WVO eventually became willing to trade Alpha and Fishing but I've lagged so far behind I've never had anything he didn't and alpha has not been that crucial to me. Teching has been easier this try but that's not saying much. I teched Feud and then MC and Mach to get Guilds next. WVO is on Optics

So 800Ad, I'm 4 turns off Mach and prob 20 off Guilds. I'm about to cap and raze a misplaced barb city in the far south and I'm prepping the area around the pigs and stone for another city now I've cleared the jungle on the piggies. Once I have Cataphracts I'll kill WVO. Earlier tries (see below) have convinced me it'll be better to grab Willie's juicy 7 cities and then colonise the South. Hopefully I'll have him dead before any other AI gets Astro.

For comparison here's a screen of another game 43 turns later where I prioritised settling as much as poss - I'm only just on Mach and WVO is on Astro. Effective tech rate is about 125bkrs a turn - 20% and showing no real signs of improving and half of that is from build reseach. I've lost the race to Lib for the first time in ages (I may need to get used to that!) and I'm nowhere near being able to attack WVO
View attachment 714368

Well, in my 'best' ie latest game it's 1260 and I've just dowed WVO and taken Utrecht. Lost virtually all my pults and will have to wait for more to arrive. Not having Eng has impeded this badly as had not teching math and Con until after Guilds - I'd forgotten that so had no stockpile ready. I'm just not happy with this game. I really dunno why but teching has proved really difficult on Emperor. It may be this map. Maybe I ought to drop back down to Monarch.

Spoiler :

I feel like your macro strategy is kind of incoherent here. Given it's semi-iso, beelining and double bulbing Astro wouldn't have been bad. And you had enough land to settle to wait for tanks and planes to go to war. I also would have definitely expanded to more than 4 cities by 800 AD.

 

[skarpa]

Spoiler :

I feel like your macro strategy is kind of incoherent here. Given it's semi-iso, beelining and double bulbing Astro wouldn't have been bad. And you had enough land to settle to wait for tanks and planes to go to war. I also would have definitely expanded to more than 4 cities by 800 AD.

Spoiler :

Thanks for the input. It's not a strategy I've tried here (yet). I just haven't been teching well enough and maybe been too distracted to get boffins running to spawn GSs. I did return to Monarch level for the past couple of tries. It's been easier but not as easy as it's usually been. I've not managed CS in any game yet but it's an early target. It's just always been out of reach. I have managed to wipe out WVO by 1500 which was progress. I'd have kept him around but even on Monarch he's out teched me all the way and rarely if ever been willing to trade. In my latest game it's been 500Ad until I've had Alpha and I've only just managed to trade that and a couple of others with him. Apart from that he's got a heap of other tech I'll never be able to get off him.

I certainly usually would have settled more, sometimes a lot more - in one game mentioned above I had 12 cities by 1330 yet the overall effect was to hold me back rather than propel me forward. 4 is too few - it made putting an army together to eliminate WVO slow and expensive to run. I'm at 540 now and teching Curr. Not got CoL or CS but have met more AIs - more than WVO has thanks to HAs with +1 vision. I have the tech to build an army but perhaps I should hold off and settle a few more cities. There's 3 sites on the coast with fish and then there's the piggies too. I have workers prepping the area now and a barb city to cap.

I do need to think about waiting until tanks and planes. I'm not keen unless I have a tech edge though which seems unlikely in this game.

 

[jorissimo]

Spoiler :

Thanks for the input. It's not a strategy I've tried here (yet). I just haven't been teching well enough and maybe been too distracted to get boffins running to spawn GSs. I did return to Monarch level for the past couple of tries. It's been easier but not as easy as it's usually been. I've not managed CS in any game yet but it's an early target. It's just always been out of reach. I have managed to wipe out WVO by 1500 which was progress. I'd have kept him around but even on Monarch he's out teched me all the way and rarely if ever been willing to trade. In my latest game it's been 500Ad until I've had Alpha and I've only just managed to trade that and a couple of others with him. Apart from that he's got a heap of other tech I'll never be able to get off him.

I certainly usually would have settled more, sometimes a lot more - in one game mentioned above I had 12 cities by 1330 yet the overall effect was to hold me back rather than propel me forward. 4 is too few - it made putting an army together to eliminate WVO slow and expensive to run. I'm at 540 now and teching Curr. Not got CoL or CS but have met more AIs - more than WVO has thanks to HAs with +1 vision. I have the tech to build an army but perhaps I should hold off and settle a few more cities. There's 3 sites on the coast with fish and then there's the piggies too. I have workers prepping the area now and a barb city to cap.

I do need to think about waiting until tanks and planes. I'm not keen unless I have a tech edge though which seems unlikely in this game.

Spoiler :

I have to say I considered playing this start but noped out when I saw tropical climate. When I saw the map my hunch was confirmed seeing as you have only 2 jungle-free cities to expand to. Even though the AI is bad at dealing with forest and jungle they get IW early giving them an edge. I would stay small until IW, I think teching it yourself on this level is probably best (and it's on the Astronomy path), going for it after writing, and then gradually expand (albeit much faster than you've been doing) while making sure you have a lot of workers. The land will eventually pay back the investment.

 

[skarpa]

Spoiler :

I have to say I considered playing this start but noped out when I saw tropical climate. When I saw the map my hunch was confirmed seeing as you have only 2 jungle-free cities to expand to. Even though the AI is bad at dealing with forest and jungle they get IW early giving them an edge. I would stay small until IW, I think teching it yourself on this level is probably best (and it's on the Astronomy path), going for it after writing, and then gradually expand (albeit much faster than you've been doing) while making sure you have a lot of workers. The land will eventually pay back the investment.

I'm glad I'm not the only one to think it's a tough map. Definitely easier on Monarch but still no cakewalk.

 

[gavenkoa]

WDWTSTTTJY from the only one AI is semi-isolation. I researched Aplha because I saw AI spent time on Theology. I hoped to get IW, but every its tech is banned by WDWTSTTTJY.

What is the mechanic behind WDWTSTTTJY? Is it special when there are no any 2nd AI? I gifted 2 resources and trade for 1 beforehand but I didn't plan to befriend AI very early, now I have WDWTSTTTJY and it seems ruins my game... At T102 I have +1 years of peace, +2 we care of our brothers (AI is nut spread religion few turns ago), +1 we appreciate resources, +1 our open borders, -1 first impression = +4 total.

I see I'll get +2 from religion, +1 - +2 from resource trade, but still I can't break 10 relation limit.

Should I gift a city for +4? What are the rules for city gifting? Which locations are eligible for gifting? What way can I worsen AI economy by city gifting (like put it in less productive or remote location)?

 

[gavenkoa]

What are the prerequisits for resource trading? Can I just walk around the shore with Warrior to enable trading even without Writing nor Sailing?

 

[AcaMetis]

WDWTSTTTJY from the only one AI is semi-isolation. I researched Aplha because I saw AI spent time on Theology. I hoped to get IW, but every its tech is banned by WDWTSTTTJY.

What is the mechanic behind WDWTSTTTJY? Is it special when there are no any 2nd AI? I gifted 2 resources and trade for 1 beforehand but I didn't plan to befriend AI very early, now I have WDWTSTTTJY and it seems ruins my game... At T102 I have +1 years of peace, +2 we care of our brothers (AI is nut spread religion few turns ago), +1 we appreciate resources, +1 our open borders, -1 first impression = +4 total.

I see I'll get +2 from religion, +1 - +2 from resource trade, but still I can't break 10 relation limit.

Should I gift a city for +4? What are the rules for city gifting? Which locations are eligible for gifting? What way can I worsen AI economy by city gifting (like put it in less productive or remote location)?

In short, referencing Civ Illustrated #1 (Know Your Enemy), each AI has a specific threshold for techs that unlock units or buildings which determine the "We don't want to start trading away this technology just yet" limit. In the specific case of (completely random example) Louis XIV his limit is 30%. Which means that if 2/7 players (~28%) know a tech he will not be willing to trade it, but once another player learns it (3/7, ~42%) the tech will be above Louis' threshold, and he'll be willing to trade.

Note: This Threshold is based on how many players the AI in question has contact with, not necessarily all AIs on the board. If (again, completely random example) you're on a Fractal map where one AI is isolated, than Tokugawa (threshold of 100%) will be still willing to trade techs even if the isolated AI doesn't have it, once 100% of the AIs Toku has contact with knows the tech. The opposite extreme is semi-iso, where only Mansa Musa (threshold of 0%) is willing to trade non-building/unit techs the player doesn't already have.

What are the prerequisits for resource trading? Can I just walk around the shore with Warrior to enable trading even without Writing nor Sailing?

Resource trading doesn't require Open Borders, only a trade connection IIRC. As for Sailing, you need that tech to connect trade routes across coastal tiles outside your cultural borders. Coastal tiles within your cultural borders enable trade routes even without Sailing. Do note, BTW, that a barbarian city's culture can cut off coastal trade routes.

 

[gavenkoa]

each AI has a specific threshold for techs that unlock units or buildings which determine the "We don't want to start trading away this technology just yet" limit

I opened separate discussion https://forums.civfanatics.com/thre...abta-the-ways-to-avoid-trade-blockade.694060/

Seems alone AI is a degenerate case, you have to befriend if you want non-Apha/Monotheism/Monarchy trade.

Lastly I played games with lots of known AIs so WDWTSTTTJY wasn't an issue I should care. This game requires special planning in order to befriend the only AI we have.

 

[gavenkoa]

So I replayed the game with intention to befriend the only single AI to open tech trade.

If AI knows no other AIs - it is a degenerate case - you cannot by a tech which enables non-religious building / mil unit / wonder. So early you could get only Alpha / Monarchy / Monotheism from the AI.

For this reason you plan befriending early, options are:

* to open border (try research Writing earlier), +1 every 25T up to 2.
* share religion (again need luck for AI to found religion & Writing for missionaries to enter your land via open borders), for our AI it is +1 base, +1 for holy city & +1 every 10T but their limit is 1, so in total I could get 3.
* gift resources, (every resource * turns) / 50 but no greater than 2. Like 1 resource gives +1 after 50T, 4 resources gives +2 after 2*50T/4 = 25T
* gift a city (+4 "Our trade relation have been fair and forthright" & hopefully +1 "You liberated our cities")

Just liberating a city won't give +4 fair trade, only +1 for liberation, so use trade.

I have in the game +1 Years of peace, +3 We care for our brothers, +2 you have supplied us with resources, +1 Open Borders, +2 Our trade relations have been fair, -1 A first impression. Total +8.

If I wait more I get additional +1 on Open Borders. But +9 is not enough for Friendly, I need +10 at least. So I placed a city near AI's border for +1 Liberation bonus & usual +4 fair trade (but I already had +2). So befriended AI with total +11 is opening trading.

I didn't research Alpha, because I bet I could trade it for Math before befriending. Espionage revealed I was correct, when I could see AIs research tech it had 2T to Alpha & I 4T to Math, I was afraid AI took Math next, but it took Aesthetics so I went for Currency in additional 14T, knowing that upcoming city gifting will open better trade options for my 2 techs. Instead at some point AI had failgold & I traded Currency & Math for gold + Alpha. Few turns later I befriended AI (at T99).

I changed the game drastically to accommodate befriending:

* traversed coastal line for trade routes for gifting resources
* spent extra turns to build roads on resources, especially duplicates - as I gifted one instance and need access to another
* empire suffered -1 Health sometimes because I gifted resources
I analyzed civ4 DLL code to understand what early diplomacy bonuses I can get:

[BTS] Post in thread 'The Final and Definitive Truth about Diplomatic Modifiers'

Jan 14, 2025

I analyzed code of CvGameTextMgr::getAttitudeString - a string of green & red text when hover over the leader showing its attitude (diplomacy value).

Messages are defined in:

Civ4/Assets/XML/Text/CIV4GameTextInfos.xml
Beyond the Sword/Assets/XML/Text/CIV4GameText_BTS.xml

Code is in CvPlayerAI.cpp / CvDeal.cpp / etc:

CvPlayerAI::AI_getCloseBordersAttitude
TXT_KEY_MISC_ATTITUDE_LAND_TARGET: Our close borders spark tensions.

CvPlayerAI::AI_getWarAttitude
TXT_KEY_MISC_ATTITUDE_WAR: This war spoils our relationship.
iAtWarAttitudeDivisor = -5 &...

• gavenkoa

• 

 

[sampsa]

Gifting a city does give +4 fair trade and sometimes a +1 extra liberation bonus. We wouldn't be city gifting very often for +1...

Edit: hmm that is what you say, but then I don't understand the next paragraph. What do you mean "only liberate"?

 

[AcaMetis]

At a guess, not using the trade window to "trade"/liberate the city? Like if an advisor pop-up gives you that option it only counts the liberation but not the trade value, since you technically didn't give the city over through the trade window?

 

[gavenkoa]

not using the trade window to "trade"/liberate the city?

In the trade menu it is marked as Liberate (gives +5 to diplomacy):

In the F1 menu it appears (gives +1 to diplomacy):

 

[AcaMetis]

...I had no idea that granting independence option also let you liberate cities to another AI. As in another AI that wouldn't be added to the game as your vassal, I mean.

 

[gavenkoa]

I had no idea that granting independence option also let you liberate cities to another AI.

Me either. I read an obscure comment here:

M

Post in thread 'How Liberation works?'

Oct 19, 2013

Although way out of date, it's important to distinguish the workings of true city liberation and city gifting (although the gifted city may be labeled liberate).
The first is a system totally independent of the AI choice. It's like a city discharge function. Basically, it was introduced along BTS to somehow create the same effect as Civ5 agressiveness when settling regions much nearer to the AI than you. What determines the closeness: the capital. Basically, while ignoring the particularities due to past ownership, vassality factor, culture seed, etc, if the city is nearer to a particular...

• Manco Capac

and got idea to check liberation menu in F1. He is telling interesting info, like:

Now, city gifting is all about the AI willingness to agree in the gift. When having more than 3 cities, the distance factor is a real parameter to consider.
3 cities and under, the special clause in the code says you can give from anywhere. Funny it is.

At last, there is the special aspects regarding liberation/gift diplomacy attitude bonuses. When liberating, you get +1.5 attitude. When gifting, you're likely getting +4 for fair trades (the same as gold and tech gifting or unbalanaced trades in their favor). And when gifting a city while (liberate) note besides it, you get both.

I tried and it worked as discussed. It was a first time I gifted city, so I searched what "Liberate" suffix means.

The comment of that person also discusses influence of distance to the AI capital in case of liberation, this first paragraph is hard to grasp for me.

 

[gavenkoa]

So it is impossible to match neighbor AI's economy. Besides it is Financial, the capital at size 6 works 10c, so total performance is 18gpt (checked Worldbuilder).

If our capital gets 4 early river cottages (after ~20T) we will get only 14gpt.

It is possible to befriend the semi-iso AI at around T90-100, but I can trade only 2-3 techs before I completely lag behind.

I think about crashing isolation AI. This way I can win Music race and avoid chopping of jungle...

At T140 my performance is: research 50% vs 80% (AI), 79bpt vs 191bpt (AI), I work 49 tiles vs 67 (AI), my expenses are 74 vs 53 (AI), I have 7 cities vs 8 (AI).

I noticed that after T100 development of cottages is slower than expenses for growing cities (population) + inflation. My income was lowered despite improvements (libs / forges).

AI has shrine, got Monarchy, Monotheism early, has everything to snowball.

Another alternative is to ditch economical advancement and focus on Optics, on the contact with other AI I was tech lead (after semi-iso AI).

So the problem with the map - AI capital has a lot of coins to work on + Financial but we are capped by jungles.