NSA keeping track of every phone call Americans make

Phlegmak said:
Where on Earth did you get this nonsense? Ok, let me explain it to you:

1. Since you also have nothing to hide (probably) you should allow the police to search your home everyday. Your privacy obviously means nothing since you have nothing to hide.

2. What is this crap about Democrats being in power? If you're referring to the fact that I despise the president wholly and completely, then fine. I don't pick on Democrats anywhere near as much as Republicans because the Republicans are more numerous in government these days and frankly, it's extremely easy to see the flaws in their actions.

Your notion that I wouldn't pick on the Democrats is utterly baseless, actually. You've obviously read my stuff in the past, and you should have noticed I never praise the Democrats.

Don't patronize me.

The police wouldn't search my house in the first place. Perhaps if I was *****ing about having a right to privacy 24/7 then they might think I'm hiding something, however, be practical.

And yes, your partizanship has everything to do with this, do not deny it. It's affable that you do.
 
garric said:
PRIVACY INFRINGEMENT DOES NOT REQUIRE HAVING SOMETHING TO HIDE.
Link, please?
Link??? Link to what??? A reason for an opinion that privacy infringement doesn't equate to having something to hide??? This is crazy!

Here's an example. If I "have nothing to hide" and someone watches every move I make in my apartment, then it's infringing on my privacy!
 
garric said:
Don't patronize me.

The police wouldn't search my house in the first place. Perhaps if I was *****ing about having a right to privacy 24/7 then they might think I'm hiding something, however, be practical.
Hey, man, you have nothing to hide. What's the big deal?

And yes, your partizanship has everything to do with this, do not deny it. It's affable that you do.

The extent of my partisanship is "I dislike the president and his decisions, and people in the government who go along with those decisions."

Like I've stated an infinite number of times in the past, I'm an independent, and will forever be so. Do not equate disliking the president and being "liberal" or "left" or any other stupid label. If you actually equated those two, then you are intellectually injuring yourself.

It doesn't take partisanship or lack thereof to recognize bad decisions.

Let the record show, that up to this point in this thread, I have not yet stated my opinion on whether I support the NSA and the government in all of this. I'll make that point clear now though: I think it's a bad idea.

I'm flattered you think I'm affable. That's extremely nice of you to say that.
 
KaeptnOvi said:
:lol: you're not really serious about asking for a link, are you?

would you be perfectly ok with a guy following you a meter behind you 24/7 (while in the toilet / bed / having sex / etc), since you have nothing to hide? :crazy:

Not quite the right analogy.

I would have a problem with someone following me everywhere however the government recording everyones call isnt the same thing.

They arent even going to listen to every call and they arent going to come to your house. The only way you would get in trouble is if you were conspiring to commit a crime on the phone.

I value my privacy but i dont value the privacy that other can have to talk about commiting crimes. If they are about to do something wrong they should be cought.

And i disagree with most of garrics points, however you would never be bothered by this unless you were trying to do something wrong. The government isnt going to waste there time with trivial comments that arent threatening.
 
This entire thread is rather odd, considering there are no such things as private phone calls anyway (and I am not talking about the gov listening in).

If you really think your phone is private, you are kidding yourself.
 
The onus is not on me to demonstrate that I have nothing to hide.

Regarding post #8, I believe Wikipedia's database is something like 50 terabytes at the moment, and that's paid for by volunteer money.

And in other news, garric is a relative fascist.
 
MobBoss said:
This entire thread is rather odd, considering there are no such things as private phone calls anyway (and I am not talking about the gov listening in).

If you really think your phone is private, you are kidding yourself.
You mean since everybody does it it's ok?
 
Kayak said:
You mean since everybody does it it's ok?

I mean since everyone does it, its useless to use it as a basis to get upset over. It should just be a given that your phone is not a private device and then the issue would be moot.
 
MobBoss said:
I mean since everyone does it, its useless to use it as a basis to get upset over. It should just be a given that your phone is not a private device and then the issue would be moot.
Sorry, the government should not be collecting pesonal information on citizens without specific cause. And don't think that I am not upset that companies can sell my personal info either.
 
garric said:
Here, let me explain it to you:

1) Phlegmak believes that the government is infringing on his privacy, even though he has nothing to hide.
2) Since its George W. Bush doing it, he's gotta go to hell, he's a war criminal, he deserves to be impeached, and he's an overall bad guy. No way in hell can Phlegmak trust the U.S Government with such information (Unless the Democrats are in power of course).
Here, let me explain it to you:

1) garric believes that the government can do no wrong, even if it were to violate the Constitution.
2) Since it's not his best buddies blowing the whistle on this, they've gotta go to hell, deserve to be deported, are surely communist liberals, and are overall bad guys. No way in hell can garric trust anyone to truthfully say that the government is doing something wrong (Unless the Democrats are in power of course).

Partisan.
 
Follow up, of sorts:

Cnn Article

The funny thing is that Bush said the US isn't "trolling" people's lives. It's sounds like Internet speak, but not quite.

Bush says U.S. not 'trolling through personal lives'

WASHINGTON (CNN) -- President Bush said Thursday the government is "not mining or trolling through the personal lives of millions of innocent Americans" with a reported program to create a massive database of U.S. phone calls.

"Our efforts are focused on links to al Qaeda and their known affiliates," Bush said. "The privacy of ordinary Americans is fiercely protected in all our activities."

Bush was responding to a USA Today report Thursday that three telecommunication firms provided the National Security Agency with domestic telephone call records from millions of Americans beginning shortly after the attacks on September 11, 2001. (Read what the reporter who broke the story says)

Bush did not specifically mention the newspaper's report. (Transcript of Bush's statement)

In response to the USA Today article, NSA spokesman Don Weber issued a statement saying, "Given the nature of the work we do, it would be irresponsible to comment on actual or alleged operational issues; therefore, we have no information to provide.

"However, it is important to note that NSA takes its legal responsibilities seriously and operates within the law."
Lawmakers concerned

Members of Congress expressed concern Thursday about the report. (Watch angry senator say "Shame on us" -- 3:56)

"It's our government, government of every single American -- Republican, Democrat or independent," said Sen. Patrick Leahy of Vermont, the ranking Democrat on the Senate Judiciary Committee. "...Those entrusted with great power have a duty to answer to Americans what they are doing."

In the House, Majority Leader Rep. John Boehner, R-Ohio, said, "I'm concerned about what I read with regard to the NSA database of phone calls. ... I'm not sure why it's necessary to us to keep and have that kind of information."

Chairman of the Senate Judiciary Committee Sen. Arlen Specter, R-Pennsylvania, said he would call on representatives from the companies named in the USA Today story, AT&T, Verizon and BellSouth, to testify.
Conservatives defend program

However, during a morning session, Republican members of the committee defended the legality and necessity of such a database.

The USA Today report said the program did not involve the NSA "listening to or recording conversations," a point that Sen. Jeff Sessions touched on.

"No recordings and no conversations were intercepted here, so there was no wiretapping here," Sessions said.

"The president after 9/11 told the American people he was going to use the powers given to him to protect this country. ... It's not a warrantless wiretapping of the American people."

Republican Sen. Jon Kyl of Arizona also faulted the revelation of the program as harmful to national security.

"This is nuts," Kyl said. "We are in a war and we've go to collect intelligence on the enemy and you can't tell the enemy in advance how you are going to do it. And discussing all of this in public leads to that."

But Leahy, a vocal critic of the wiretapping program, praised the USA Today report, saying "it's a sorry state" that the committee will have to call on the telecom companies for the information.

"We have to do that because our own government won't answer questions," Leahy said. "Neither this committee nor any committee in the House or in the Senate has gotten adequate answers. ...

"The press is doing our work for us and we should be ashamed."
Hayden visits canceled

The report comes at an awkward time for CIA director nominee Gen. Michael Hayden, whom President Bush named this week to replace Porter Goss as head of the spy agency. Hayden, whose confirmation hearings begin next Thursday, headed the NSA from March 1999 to April 2005.

Boehner said he thought that Hayden will "have a lot more explaining to do."

Sen. Dianne Feinstein, D-California -- who supports Hayden's nomination -- said the information will "present a growing impediment" to his confirmation, a development she said she regretted.

Facing Senate confirmation hearings before the Senate Intelligence Committee on May 18, Hayden's meeting today with Sens. Rick Santorum, R-Pennsylvania, and Lisa Murkowski, R-Alaska, were canceled.

The report comes months after the Bush administration came under criticism on Capitol Hill for ordering an NSA surveillance program, that allowed communication to be monitored between people in the United States and terrorism suspects overseas without a court order.

Hayden headed the NSA when the wiretapping program was launched in the immediate aftermath of the September 11 attacks.

President Bush has argued that the resolution authorizing military action after the 9/11 attacks, along with his authority as commander-in-chief of the military, give him the power to initiate the program without a court order, as a 1978 law requires.

The Justice Department has been denied security clearances for access to information, which prompted it to drop an investigation into the program. (Full story)

The Democrats' No. 2 member of the Senate, Sen. Richard Durbin, called the development "evidence of a coverup."

"The fact ... that the Department of Justice has abandoned their own investigation of this administration's wrongdoing because there's been a refusal to give investigators security clearances is clear evidence of a coverup within the administration."

Last month, a former AT&T technician said in a sealed court document filed in federal court that the company cooperated with NSA to install equipment for "vacuum cleaner surveillance" of e-mail messages and Internet traffic, according to his lawyer.

Attorney Miles Ehrlich of Berkeley, California, told CNN that his client, Mark Klein, said there is a special room inside an AT&T building in San Francisco that is entirely controlled by NSA personnel and contains equipment that can sift through large amounts of Internet traffic.

I bolded the last part because it's a little troubling to me. I work for AT&T. By the way, don't ask me to get you information from inside the company about this story. I have the exact same access to the information in question as someone outside the company.

Article on USA Today reporter who broke the story:
Link

EDIT: I already knew that companies can spy on their own employees, but now I have reason to believe that my own company is spying on me for the federal government?

Last month, a former AT&T technician said in a sealed court document filed in federal court that the company cooperated with NSA to install equipment for "vacuum cleaner surveillance" of e-mail messages and Internet traffic, according to his lawyer.
 
MobBoss said:
This entire thread is rather odd, considering there are no such things as private phone calls anyway (and I am not talking about the gov listening in).

If you really think your phone is private, you are kidding yourself.
Are these ambiguous 'listeners' listening legally? I think not.

So, is your logic that since others are listening in illegally, its pointless to complain about my government doing it? Hhhmmm....
 
warpus said:
- to meet legal and regulatory requirements
This is the most relevent portion (to this discussion) of that policy statement.
 
I think the privacy issue can be summed up as such:

Why should I care if I'm not aware of people searching my life for things I did not do?

Well, one day, you will :)
 
garric said:
Here, let me explain it to you:

1) Phlegmak believes that the government is infringing on his privacy, even though he has nothing to hide.
2) Since its George W. Bush doing it, he's gotta go to hell, he's a war criminal, he deserves to be impeached, and he's an overall bad guy. No way in hell can Phlegmak trust the U.S Government with such information (Unless the Democrats are in power of course).

Can you give your partisan Bush grundel sucking bullfeathers a rest for two minutes and do three things for me please.

1) Look at the law.

2) Look at what has been done.

3) Without considering "who done it," judge objectively on whether or not it was lawful.

That's all I ask, as well as not talking so often. It is truly unbecoming.

Thanks.
 
It looks increasingly like we are back in the Nixonian era of the imperial presidency.

I think this is going to end badly, both for Bush and the country.
 
MobBoss said:
I mean since everyone does it, its useless to use it as a basis to get upset over. It should just be a given that your phone is not a private device and then the issue would be moot.

This is true, but the government holds certain monopolies in our society over the use of force, detention, coercion, etc... which makes their intrusion into our privacy all the more grave.
 
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