Nun Excommunicated

[ParkCungHee]

There can still be discussion about the reasonableness of either position.

I'm sure that will be highly productive and likely to reach consensus, so that we can discuss the matter at hand using agreed upon terms.

 

[Riffraff]

I'm sure that will be highly productive and likely to reach consensus, so that we can discuss the matter at hand using agreed upon terms.

It probably won't here, but the potential for a discussion exists nevertheless.

 

[Bill3000]

It probably won't here, but the potential for a discussion exists nevertheless.

Maybe in Hell.

 

[ParkCungHee]

Maybe in Hell.

Now this discussion has traction: Is there a place that this debate could be held in a useful manner? If so where?
I don't think Hell. I think Purgatory would be far more conducive to deciding on the status of the unborn.

 

[Bei1052]

There will be no reasonable debate on abortion until people stop trying to impose philosophical constructs onto the law.

 

[ParkCungHee]

There will be no reasonable debate on abortion until people stop trying to impose philosophical constructs onto the law.

But Law is a philosophical construct.

 

[Bei1052]

But Law is a philosophical construct.

That doesn't change what I said.

There's a difference between, for example, the legal definition of a person and the philosophical definition of a person. There's a difference between, for example, the scientific definition of a human being and the philosophical definition of a human being. Trying to impose the latter definitions on the former definitions in order to meet some end is very bad form, as it opens up defining one subset of the population out of rights held by another subset of the population based on the whim of the guy or girl doing the defining, and is also borderline a conflation (If it isn't outright).

 

[aragogthebest]

The Catholic Church is scum.

agree 100%

 

[aelf]

Assaulting the Clergy is automatic excommunication, so murdering them would be as well.
Automatic Excommunication was introduced in responce to widescale acceptence of abortion. Perhaps when rape or murder becomes similarly acceptable, there will be automatic excommunication.

Ah, so Catholic doctrine depends on the popularity of the action the Church is disapproving of.

I guess they kinda got stuck in the temporal part.

 

[ParkCungHee]

Ah, so Catholic doctrine depends on the popularity of the action the Church is disapproving of.

The purpose of Excommunication is almost wholy a matter of public affairs. That's why they excommunicated Castro who hasn't recieved mass since he was a child. While Murder and rape are both very serious offenses, they are unlikely to dissapear because the Catholic Church has given rape bad PR.

 

[aelf]

The purpose of Excommunication is almost wholy a matter of public affairs.

Yes, I realised as much, as I said.

 

[Kerozine]

That doesn't change what I said.

There's a difference between, for example, the legal definition of a person and the philosophical definition of a person. There's a difference between, for example, the scientific definition of a human being and the philosophical definition of a human being. Trying to impose the latter definitions on the former definitions in order to meet some end is very bad form, as it opens up defining one subset of the population out of rights held by another subset of the population based on the whim of the guy or girl doing the defining, and is also borderline a conflation (If it isn't outright).

I'm curious, what are the scientific and philosophical definitions of a human being? What is the difference between the two?

 

[Lord Gay]

Are you sure that the dad is Catholic?

Do you have info indicating he isn't?

There will be no reasonable debate on abortion until people stop trying to impose philosophical constructs onto the law.

I think a big problem is that both sides are talking about different things. PL talk about the fetus, while PC talk about the mother. It's kinda like the big discussion we had a decade or two ago over gun control, where one side talked about guns, while the other talked about the people who use them.

If people aren't on the same page, discussions won't go very far.

 

[ParadigmShifter]

Mothers get bonus points cos they have to actually give birth to and look after the little bastards.
Most anti abortionists don't give a crap about the baby when it is actually born.

 

[ColdClimate]

Well, I could almost see the argument that it's somehow nobler for a mother to die than to 'murder' the fetus inside her, if you've already established the theological groundrules that abortion is a form of murder and that a fetus is indeed a person. Thus, abeting a person in perpretrating this murder could be grounds for excommunication.

On the other hand, if murder is murder no matter what the reasons, can the church excommunicate you for killing someone in self-defense? For that matter, could a case like this be justified under the same 'lawful slayings' argument that the church uses to defend capital punishment?

 

[Lord Gay]

Assaulting the Clergy is automatic excommunication, so murdering them would be as well.
Automatic Excommunication was introduced in responce to widescale acceptence of abortion. Perhaps when rape or murder becomes similarly acceptable, there will be automatic excommunication.

Why wait? If Automatic Excommunication (AE) is being doled out for abortion because abortion is murder, then I really don't understand why AE isn't given for murder. For that matter, why isn't it given for any other sin?

If sins are things that God hates, and there are some sins that he hates a lot, then why not give AE for all of them? Why not remove the guesswork, the soul-searching, the different rulings from different officials and streamline the whole thing? Do a sin = AE, end of story.

Saying that abortion merits AE because it's murder, but murder doesn't, just shows how wacky the Church is.

 

[Shadylookin]

She can burn in hell with all the atheists, pagans, muslims, commies, hindus, and especially protestants.

If you don't want to play by the clubs rules then why be part of the club? Any sane person would be glad to be out of an organization whose reputation has been so tarnished.

 

[ColdClimate]

Why wait? If Automatic Excommunication (AE) is being doled out for abortion because abortion is murder, then I really don't understand why AE isn't given for murder. For that matter, why isn't it given for any other sin?

If sins are things that God hates, and there are some sins that he hates a lot, then why not give AE for all of them? Why not remove the guesswork, the soul-searching, the different rulings from different officials and streamline the whole thing? Do a sin = AE, end of story.

Saying that abortion merits AE because it's murder, but murder doesn't, just shows how wacky the Church is.

Well, curiousty got the better of me, and I looked up automatic excommunication, known in canon as latae sententiae. The reasons for ls are listed in wiki:

* an apostate from the faith, a heretic, or a schismatic;[7]
* a person who throws away the consecrated Eucharistic species or takes and retains them for a sacrilegious purpose;[8]
* a person who uses physical force against the Pope;[9]
* a priest who uses confession as a pretext to solicit the confessor to break the commandment against adultery;[10]
* a bishop who ordains someone a bishop without a pontifical mandate, and the person who receives the ordination from him;[11]
* a confessor who directly violates the sacramental seal of confession;[12]
* a person who procures a completed abortion;[13] and
* accomplices who are not named in a law prescribing latae sententiae excommunication but without whose assistance the violation of the law would not have been committed.[14]

Various other persons incur excommunication latae sententiae by papal decree, including:

* a person who violates the secrecy of a papal election, or who interferes with it by means such as simony;[15]
* a woman who simulates ordination as a priest or a bishop who simulates the ordination of a woman as a priest.[16]

Some instances in which one incurs interdict latae sententiae include the following:

* using physical force against a bishop;[9]
* attempting to preside at Eucharist, or giving sacramental absolution, when not a priest;[10]
* falsely denouncing a confessor for soliciting a penitent to sin against the commandment against adultery;[17] and
* a perpetually professed religious who attempts marriage.[18]

So, um, it looks as though 'regular murder' is ok. Just don't help with an abortion, beat up the pope, or toss out any holy crackers...

 

[Valka D'Ur]

a woman who simulates ordination as a priest or a bishop who simulates the ordination of a woman as a priest.

So they'll excommunicate a woman for pretending to be a priest, but not a man who pretends to be a nun?

 

[Lord Gay]

Also note that priests can use confession to tell people to do any kind of sin, including murder... just not adultery.

And re retaining crackers for sacrilegious purposes...

"Oh thanks Father, but I'm just gonna save this bad boy for later. I've got something special planned tonight..."