Occam's Razor and Your Ontology!

I think that strictly speaking, outside of our own context for having a chair and the necessary relationship between humans and chairs, then a "chair" as a singular entity probably does not exist. If aliens found a chair but didn't know what it was for, would it still be a "chair" to them?

Edit: I retract the other part, so if you quote it, just delete that please.
 
Occam's Razor is often characterized as a sort of ontological parsimony: don't add more entities to your ontology than you have to for a complete account of whatever you want an account of. Occam's Razor is also one of the most-loved and most-cited philosophical principles among people who aren't really into philosophy, but who love science!

I also noticed that nearly 80% of the voters in that thread, including pretty much all of the sciencey people that I'm aware of, voted that ordinary material objects (tables, chairs, laptops, etc.) exist.

But doesn't that violate the razor!? I mean, why suppose that there is this thing, a chair, rather than just a bunch of particles arranged chair-wise?
You're confusing Names with Entities. A Name is a symbol representing a class (or grouping) of things, while an Entity is the thing itself.

By using the word "particle" to describe individual entities comprising a "chair," you have actually multiplied, not reduced, the number of entities, on the order of trillions.
 
So the (successful beyond my wildest imagination) ontology thread made me wonder:

Occam's Razor is often characterized as a sort of ontological parsimony: don't add more entities to your ontology than you have to for a complete account of whatever you want an account of. Occam's Razor is also one of the most-loved and most-cited philosophical principles among people who aren't really into philosophy, but who love science!

I also noticed that nearly 80% of the voters in that thread, including pretty much all of the sciencey people that I'm aware of, voted that ordinary material objects (tables, chairs, laptops, etc.) exist.

But doesn't that violate the razor!? I mean, why suppose that there is this thing, a chair, rather than just a bunch of particles arranged chair-wise?

NOTE:

The quickest solution to this is usually for the person to go: BUT A CHAIR JUST IS A BUNCH OF PARTICLES ARRANGED CHAIR-WISE, WE JUST CALL THAT THING A CHAIR BECAUSE ITS LINGUISTICALLY EASIER.

Before you say that, do realize that in the ontology thread, I asked whether chairs EXIST not whether a word exists for a bunch of particles arranged chair-wise.

So, whats the deal? Is Occam's Razor wrong? Is your ontology wrong? Or do you magically cause actual things to come into existence by acts of dubbing? Or something else?

Here's my take on the chair/particle issue: a random association of particles is a chair. It's not just that we call it a chair because that's easier than calling it a "chair-like association of particles"... the association of particles meets all the criteria for being a chair, so, by definition, it is a chair.

Let me know if I missed something you were trying to convey in the OP.
 
But doesn't that violate the razor!? I mean, why suppose that there is this thing, a chair, rather than just a bunch of particles arranged chair-wise?

What is chair but a bunch of particles arranged chair-wise? If the particles exist and they're arranged in that peculiar chair-wise way then don't the chair also exist? Wouldn't that be the simplest, most Occam's Razorian solution (definition of chair fulfilled --> chair is)?
 
You're confusing Names with Entities. A Name is a symbol representing a class (or grouping) of things, while an Entity is the thing itself.

By using the word "particle" to describe individual entities comprising a "chair," you have actually multiplied, not reduced, the number of entities, on the order of trillions.

'k, so classes of things to be pedantic. Since the example had pre-assumed the existance of the class "particles", assuming a second class of chairs as having some sort of existance seperate from that of the particles that constitute it is unnecessary.
 
This thread is a poor use of Occam's Razor and I'm not sure any of the posters really understand it.
 
Occam's Razor is wrong. The simplest solution is not always the right solution. Many issues in real life are complicated and complicated problems require complicated answers.
 
Occam's Razor is wrong. The simplest solution is not always the right solution. Many issues in real life are complicated and complicated problems require complicated answers.

Eh, it's not that it's wrong, it's that it's not used right. It's a method and a rule of thumb, not a dogma.
 
Occam's Razor is wrong. The simplest solution is not always the right solution. Many issues in real life are complicated and complicated problems require complicated answers.

Wiki said:
The common form of the razor, used to distinguish between equally explanatory theories, can be supported by appeals to the practical value of simplicity. Theories exist to give accurate explanations of phenomena, and simplicity is a valuable aspect of an explanation because it makes the explanation easier to understand and work with. Thus, if two theories are equally accurate and neither appears more probable than the other, the simple one is to be preferred over the complicated one, because simplicity is practical.

Beginning in the 20th century, epistemological justifications based on induction, logic, pragmatism, and probability theory have become more popular among philosophers.

One way a theory or a principle could be justified is empirically; that is to say, if simpler theories were to have a better record of turning out to be correct than more complex ones, that would corroborate Occam's razor. However, Occam's razor is not a theory in the classic sense of being a model that explains physical observations, relying on induction; rather, it is a heuristic maxim for choosing among such theories and underlies induction. Justifying such a guideline against some hypothetical alternative thus fails on account of invoking circular logic.

To wit: There are many different ways of making inductive inferences from past data concerning the success of different theories throughout the history of science, and inferring that "simpler theories are, other things being equal, generally better than more complex ones" is just one way of many- which only seems more plausible to us because we are already assuming the razor to be true (see e.g. Swinburne 1997). This, however, does not exclude legitimate attempts at a deductive justification of the razor (and indeed these are inherent to many of its modern derivatives). Failing even that, the razor may be accepted a priori on pragmatist grounds.

Complicated problems can have simple solutions. In fact one goal of problem solving in real life is to find a solution that is simpler than the problem. Simple and elegant solutions to complicated problems make people rich. ;)
 
Occam's Razor is wrong. The simplest solution is not always the right solution. Many issues in real life are complicated and complicated problems require complicated answers.

I only wish to point something out about Ockham's Razor.

Ockham's Razor is not used to determine what is true; rather it is used to determine what is most likely to be true from current observations.

::::::::::
 
So, whats the deal? Is Occam's Razor wrong? Is your ontology wrong? Or do you magically cause actual things to come into existence by acts of dubbing? Or something else?

I think the "something else" worth looking at is that there are a stunning number of things in the universe, most of them composed of smaller things, and most of them go unnamed. By dubbing, we "magically" cause actual things to come to our attention. That is all.
 
I think the "something else" worth looking at is that there are a stunning number of things in the universe, most of them composed of smaller things, and most of them go unnamed. By dubbing, we "magically" cause actual things to come to our attention. That is all.

So would you say there is an object composed of my water bottle (and its constituent parts), the 5th closest star to earth (and its constituent parts), and your left food (and its constituent parts)?
 
So would you say there is an object composed of my water bottle (and its constituent parts), the 5th closest star to earth (and its constituent parts), and your left food (and its constituent parts)?

If those things had some specific function that could be coherent and self-contained, then yes. Otherwise it would be meaningless. Like I said, if an alien finds a chair, is it still a "chair", or a bunch of matter arranged in a certain shape?
 
This thread is a poor use of Occam's Razor and I'm not sure any of the posters really understand it.
Well, the title of the thread is "Occam's Razor and Your Ontology."

It seems to me that Ontology and Occam's Razor are a poor pairing from the get go, since ontology tends to provide models rather than theories, and assertions rather than explanations. The OP starts off the discussion by comparing the concept of "chair" to the concept of "particles." There is no theory, no model from which to make predictions, no formulae or equations.

Given that start, I don't believe that Occam's Razor can be applied in any traditional sense. However, it is possible to apply the basic concept of "as simple as possible, but no simpler" to the set of definitions that were presented at the beginning of this thread. This is what I have attempted to do.
 
Well, the title of the thread is "Occam's Razor and Your Ontology."

It seems to me that Ontology and Occam's Razor are a poor pairing from the get go, since ontology tends to provide models rather than theories, and assertions rather than explanations. The OP starts off the discussion by comparing the concept of "chair" to the concept of "particles." There is no theory, no model from which to make predictions, no formulae or equations.

Given that start, I don't believe that Occam's Razor can be applied in any traditional sense. However, it is possible to apply the basic concept of "as simple as possible, but no simpler" to the set of definitions that were presented at the beginning of this thread. This is what I have attempted to do.

Ah...throwing Fifty a life preserver.
 
Well, I think it would be stupid to believe that Fifty really advocates the argument outlined in the OP. Fifty is using this argument to fight against stupid notions of existence.
 
Well, I think it would be stupid to believe that Fifty really advocates the argument outlined in the OP. Fifty is using this argument to fight against stupid notions of existence.
Well, his argument, as presented here, is a stupid one.
 
'k, so classes of things to be pedantic. Since the example had pre-assumed the existance of the class "particles", assuming a second class of chairs as having some sort of existance seperate from that of the particles that constitute it is unnecessary.
OK, but the pre-assumption of "particles" is an ill-defined and lazy assumption. What exactly may I ask is a "particle" in this example?
 
So would you say there is an object composed of my water bottle (and its constituent parts), the 5th closest star to earth (and its constituent parts), and your left food (and its constituent parts)?

Yup. And it was already there before you named/described it.
 
Back
Top Bottom