Darksaber1
Secret Emperor
Also, this must of been misided in the ponderings about Lamia, but here it goes again:
Of Angels and Magic
- Thread starter Darksaber1
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MagisterCultuum
Great Sage
The Great Serpent is the constellation sacred to Agares, but the snake (in its ancient Greek-inspired role of being a wise creature related to healing) is actually the symbol of Amathaon. Lamia as Amathaon-influenced humans makes a lot more sense, as Amathaon is the patron of the Kuriotates.
In FfH, the only Eve we know of is the orininal incarnation of Epona.
We never knew the name of Nemed's second wife. All we know is that she was a mortal (and probably without a soul) created to replace Gabella. We do however know that the early generations of humans had much greater longevity. I suspect that she may not have lived that long, but her daughters may all have lived for tens of thousands of years even before menopause. I like to think that the longevity of Elves (some elves from the Age of Magic are still alive and fairly youthful in the Age of Reborth) is still significantly less that that of the original men from whom they were descended. Having hundreds or even thousands of children each could have been quite common back then. It does seem, however, that it would be hard to say when the sixth generation of man was, since the first and second generations could still be having many children at the same time as their great-great-great-great-great-great-...great-great-great-great-grand children. There were also probably many births from parents of different generations.
In FfH, the only Eve we know of is the orininal incarnation of Epona.
We never knew the name of Nemed's second wife. All we know is that she was a mortal (and probably without a soul) created to replace Gabella. We do however know that the early generations of humans had much greater longevity. I suspect that she may not have lived that long, but her daughters may all have lived for tens of thousands of years even before menopause. I like to think that the longevity of Elves (some elves from the Age of Magic are still alive and fairly youthful in the Age of Reborth) is still significantly less that that of the original men from whom they were descended. Having hundreds or even thousands of children each could have been quite common back then. It does seem, however, that it would be hard to say when the sixth generation of man was, since the first and second generations could still be having many children at the same time as their great-great-great-great-great-great-...great-great-great-great-grand children. There were also probably many births from parents of different generations.
Darksaber1
Secret Emperor
Lamia as Amathaon-influenced humans makes a lot more sense, as Amathaon is the patron of the Kuriotates./QUOTE]
Ya, and that would explain why they don't seam to be to be greaf crazed-child eating monster's with Removable eyes. Mabye Centaur's come also from Exposure to Amathaon
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Darksaber1
Secret Emperor
Actually, thinking about human races modified by the presence of the angels is pretty intersting:
Amathaon: A bit like a zoo(not demening any of his(?) races), with alsorts of creaters, like possibly Lamia and Centaur.
Danalin: The Aifon
Kilmorph: The dwarves, probably
Sucellus: Elves
Tali: Bird people?
Aeron: Possibly effected the Vampires, he might of partially caused them to change like they do, but this could just be aneffect of Vampirisum
Bhall: Orcs?
Mulcarn: Frostlings.
Of course, these are simply musing, but feel free to coment on any other human races you can thibk of.
Amathaon: A bit like a zoo(not demening any of his(?) races), with alsorts of creaters, like possibly Lamia and Centaur.
Danalin: The Aifon
Kilmorph: The dwarves, probably
Sucellus: Elves
Tali: Bird people?
Aeron: Possibly effected the Vampires, he might of partially caused them to change like they do, but this could just be aneffect of Vampirisum
Bhall: Orcs?
Mulcarn: Frostlings.
Of course, these are simply musing, but feel free to coment on any other human races you can thibk of.
Rex rgis of Ter
Me I'm a Creator
The Aifon and Elves were created by exposure to Danalin and Sucellus in the Age of Magic.
The Dwarves were first statues that Kilmorph gave life to.
The first vampires were created by consuming another person's soul
Orcs were created during Bhhall's fall. Her fall mutated many of her followers making orcs.
Frostlings were created by Mulcarn, I believe from those who died in the blizzards during the Age of Ice.
There has never been any information on bird people, and Amathaon's link to Lamia and Centaurs is pure conjunction.
The Dwarves were first statues that Kilmorph gave life to.
The first vampires were created by consuming another person's soul
Orcs were created during Bhhall's fall. Her fall mutated many of her followers making orcs.
Frostlings were created by Mulcarn, I believe from those who died in the blizzards during the Age of Ice.
There has never been any information on bird people, and Amathaon's link to Lamia and Centaurs is pure conjunction.
Darksaber1
Secret Emperor
I never said this was canon or acurate. I was just musing on what form humans might of taken from exposure to gods. and it is quete possible that Dwarves were humans changed by living underground, My reference to vampires was more wondering about what caused them to become pale and fanged and weak to sunlight. And there where refernces to Orces befor Bhalls fall, but they were discribed a fair and elagent like elves. And Frostlings were spirits of the dead in the age of ice, which were reborn as frostlings.
Rex rgis of Ter
Me I'm a Creator
Vampires are weak from light because of a curse by Lugus. The first vampire, Alexis, was created by stealing a priest of Lugus' soul.
It is stated in the pedia Dwarves were created from statues. Bambur is one of the original dwarves.
Where did you find the Orcs before the Fall info? Could you give me a link?
It is stated in the pedia Dwarves were created from statues. Bambur is one of the original dwarves.
Where did you find the Orcs before the Fall info? Could you give me a link?
Darksaber1
Secret Emperor
I can't remember where it was, it might not be there anymore. Okay, it might have mean Pyr of the Seriphic. It looks like it might have been a retcon. It was only a passing mention. I forgot that Alexis's first victom was a priest of Lugus. And if you look back through this thread, the belief that dwarves might have been humans adpted to like undeground by Kilmorph was to answer the question of how the Dwarves gained the Divine Spark, souls and magic.
Rex rgis of Ter
Me I'm a Creator
However, the civilopedia tells us otherwise. The logical explanation is that part of Kilmorph's enchantment gave them the divine spark and souls, or dwarves simply use enchanments to do magic (The enchanments made using divine magic, thus the spark would be needed).
Darksaber1
Secret Emperor
Yes, but that might be a dwarvish legend. every culture on Earth has it's own creation story, and seeing as how their is magic and angels in Fall from Heaven, it might be true.
Wait? Early in this thread I was agueing in favor of a very similar point to you. Darn, Magister Cultuum is pursasive. Whoe.
Wait? Early in this thread I was agueing in favor of a very similar point to you. Darn, Magister Cultuum is pursasive. Whoe.
Blackmantle
King
Well "problem" with legends about the cration of Dwarves is Bambur being still around. So no secondhand myths required. 
They "just" need to ask him (and perhaps other very early dwarves) and if he choses not to lie (which dwarves are perhaps not all that prone to like humans are but surely still might) then they know.
Oh and good Bambur can use magic of sorts by enchanting weapons (even if that rather is a representation of superior smithing abilities, perhaps. To put equipment done by him "on par" with enchanted weapons).
They "just" need to ask him (and perhaps other very early dwarves) and if he choses not to lie (which dwarves are perhaps not all that prone to like humans are but surely still might) then they know.
Oh and good Bambur can use magic of sorts by enchanting weapons (even if that rather is a representation of superior smithing abilities, perhaps. To put equipment done by him "on par" with enchanted weapons).
Darksaber1
Secret Emperor
Well, the main reson for questioning the story of the dwarfs creation has less to do with the Khazad (their magic might be more along the line of sealing magic runes in objects, then using their power), but the Luchuip can use magic with little effort. Garrim Gyr could use fire magic. Of course, if the dwarvin legends are true, then the Luchuip might have magic from exposure to Nantosuelta, but it says that magic is made possible by the divine spark, and if Kilmorph or Nantosuelta gifted the dwarves with the divine spark, then they would have needed to to this before the signing of the compact, as I think it would be a pretty big infererance. Of, course I'm not saying the Dwarvin legends are wrong, just that they have some problems. Bambur could have been chosen as a leader of the early Dwarves, gifted with imortallity, or by some other means.
MagisterCultuum
Great Sage
I think that a problem bigger than the use of magic is the fact that Dwarves have religion, and have been shown bargaining with gods for their souls. Arthendain's entry used to mention him swearing his eternal soul to Sucellus in exchange for a second life, in which to avenge his first death by killing Typhoid Mary (now Mary Morbus). We also know that when Maros was upset by a deal with demons he left the Khazad to join the Order. I have some trouble believing that Junil would accept a soulless being. And of course, they can adopt any religion in the game and use all the divine magic. I believe it has been stated that a man's ability to use divine magic is dependant on his faith in his god. I think of this as perhaps being a sort of subconscious channeling of magic/the essence of the god's precept, which would also depend on the Divine Spark.
It does raise some questions as to where the powers of the angels (excluding the original 21) come from.
I suppose it could be possible that Bambur thinks he was created by Keldon Ki and Kilmorph. It could be that Keldon had children (possibly his own, maybe the orphans of other prisoners) imprisoned with him and placed in his care, and lied to them when they asked where they cane from. It could have started sort of like saying that babies are brought b the Stork (or even as a half joking bedtime story), but the children took it seriously. Eventually it was enshrined as the truth and an essential tenant of their religion. I prefer to think that Bambur is not truly immortal, but that he is from a very early generation of man when humans in general were very close to immortality.
It does raise some questions as to where the powers of the angels (excluding the original 21) come from.
I suppose it could be possible that Bambur thinks he was created by Keldon Ki and Kilmorph. It could be that Keldon had children (possibly his own, maybe the orphans of other prisoners) imprisoned with him and placed in his care, and lied to them when they asked where they cane from. It could have started sort of like saying that babies are brought b the Stork (or even as a half joking bedtime story), but the children took it seriously. Eventually it was enshrined as the truth and an essential tenant of their religion. I prefer to think that Bambur is not truly immortal, but that he is from a very early generation of man when humans in general were very close to immortality.
I don't think the compact said anything about giving the divine spark to things.
After all, Kilmorph did grant the wish of Kheldon who must have been a faithful follower of Kilmorph or something.
Just how long do the dwarves live anyway? If they were initially immortal, then the present generation would have a far longer lifespan than even the elves. They would have been created within 5,000 years of the current date in FFH2 since the Patrian empire certainly didn't last 10,000 years.
I know the Chinese culture has been around for over 3,000 years, but dynasties come and go, empires rise and fall, but even if the Chinese empire fell, thier culture would still be there.
I think the longest lasting empire on earth is probably the chinese empire at over 2,000 years old. Although according to wikipedia, Japan is still an empire and there was one in Korea for over 3,000 years. I'm skeptical on korea as it says korean empires. There aren't alot of empires that lasted over a thousand years.
My point is that empires rarely last up to a thousand years. They could last over 2,000 years like China did. Cultural unity kind of helps and it doesn't sound like Patria would have been very culturally uniform.
After all, Kilmorph did grant the wish of Kheldon who must have been a faithful follower of Kilmorph or something.
Just how long do the dwarves live anyway? If they were initially immortal, then the present generation would have a far longer lifespan than even the elves. They would have been created within 5,000 years of the current date in FFH2 since the Patrian empire certainly didn't last 10,000 years.
I know the Chinese culture has been around for over 3,000 years, but dynasties come and go, empires rise and fall, but even if the Chinese empire fell, thier culture would still be there.
I think the longest lasting empire on earth is probably the chinese empire at over 2,000 years old. Although according to wikipedia, Japan is still an empire and there was one in Korea for over 3,000 years. I'm skeptical on korea as it says korean empires. There aren't alot of empires that lasted over a thousand years.
My point is that empires rarely last up to a thousand years. They could last over 2,000 years like China did. Cultural unity kind of helps and it doesn't sound like Patria would have been very culturally uniform.
Darksaber1
Secret Emperor
@Magister Cultuum, very possible. It could also be that maybe the "children of Keldon Ki" weren’t longer lived then normal, but after they somehow escaped in to Earth, Kilmorph took pity on them, and ether created the elder dwarves like Bambur like in the legend, or caused early generation humans to find them, and help them, since I doubt Keldon Ki's "children" would have many survival skills. Kilmorph could have caused these humans to change, to look like the dwarves, and Bambur could agree with the legend because he realizes what the truth could to the dwarves. After all, it wreck most of their beliefs if they found out they where actually descended from men. The blood of the "elder" dwarves might have caused the regular dwarves to have extended lives, or the dwarves might have a lower reproductive rate then men, meaning less generations seprate them from Nemed, so they still live longer then men.
you know, I just realized something, since Os-Gaballa learned dimensional magic and the Sheaim have those planar gates.
Dimensional magic is like opening bridges between different planes or dimensions. I wasn't sure where to post this, so I thought heck just post here.
Dimensional magic is like opening bridges between different planes or dimensions. I wasn't sure where to post this, so I thought heck just post here.
Darksaber1
Secret Emperor
Well, she could be the one that creates the planar gates, then every year, thousands of young adepts are sucked dry maintaning the gate, and its becon the other planes. Makes sense, sounds like something the sheim would do.
El_Duderino
Warlord
well when kilmorph brought the statues to life as dwarfs couldnt she have just infused them with the lifesparks of dead followers?
Darksaber1
Secret Emperor
And once again:
Rex rgis of Ter
Me I'm a Creator
I think most followers are only in his serrvice for poweer, and care little for his motives.
His angels probably do know, and agree that creation must be destroyed.
His angels probably do know, and agree that creation must be destroyed.
