Of course, Kerry is right...

[IglooDame]

Kerry was right in his original meaning: If leaders do not study history and learn to carefully consider ramifications of their actions, then they get stuck in bad situations that could have been avoided.

But while our military certainly has it's share of boneheads, (and perhaps, per capita, a slightly higher percentage than say, Stanford) it also has plenty of very smart men and women serving in the ranks. It has to. Gone are the days of press gangs and large numbers of grunts needed to fill out the ranks. Even the infantry these days is expected to master several technologies and be capable of independant, complex decision making. I actually suspect that on the whole, your "average" military member is likely to be sharper than "average" American, though the high standard deviation in both populations is going to make that tough to validate.

One wonders if Kerry has forgotten that conscription in the US went away after he got back from 'Nam, so the "not smart enough to avoid the draft/couldn't get a college deferment" impression that he might have gotten from folks there is no longer valid.

 

[The Yankee]

What's funny is that no one has brought up that Kerry was a Yale graduate by the time he went into the Navy. Still, of all possible ways to mess up the joke he was trying to give, this was the worst way to do it. Now he's finally apologized (about as much as a politician that isn't convicted of a crime like Duke Cunningham will apologize), it might be time to just move on from this.

Besides, wouldn't all those trying for a college degree by way of the military be doing a very smart thing?

 

[Tank_Guy#3]

...which is why he was forced to apologize. The last thing people in a tired, old decadent, broken down democracy want to hear is the truth. Truth is the enemy. Especially in an election year. Does anyone actually dispute the fact that for the most part, people with the most educational opportunities are less likely to join the military? Getting a free education is one of the primary reasons people join the military in the first place. Of course there are exceptions, but most people who join the military have limited education and career opportunities, everybody knows that, so why should the guy have to apologize?

Yes I dispute this. A third of my graduating class stuck with farming , another went to work for local factories (mainly a local steel foundry), and about 5 tried out for the military. Before you say "That's still not very many that stayed" take into consideration I had a graduating class of about 58 (I would have to check the yearbook to be absolutely certain).

Saying that uneducated people join the military is insane. Do you not know that most officers are required to have a college education. According to this site MOST officers require a bachelor's degree AND military officers training (OCS, OTS, etc). Though I do grant you the ratio of officers to enlisted is quite staggering (in great favor towards the enlisted).

He said most people who joint he military are uneducated, hence the mind TENDS to draw the conclusion that you are not smart, which is most definitely not the case. It may have been meant as a joke, but he botched it, and it became an insult. You insult so many people, especially if you politician, it would be smart politics to apologize.

What's funny is that no one has brought up that Kerry was a Yale graduate by the time he went into the Navy.

I think I mentioned something about Kerry being a college grad before joining in Katheryn's thread.

 

[Little Raven]

One wonders if Kerry has forgotten that conscription in the US went away after he got back from 'Nam, so the "not smart enough to avoid the draft/couldn't get a college deferment" impression that he might have gotten from folks there is no longer valid.

No, I don't think that's Kerry's problem at all. Kerry's problem is that he has all the personal charm of a pocket calculator. He wasn't referring to our troops at all. (and when even Bill O'Reilly recognizes that, you know the spin machine is in full force) Kerry may well hold our troops in distain...heck, he may hold the whole human race in distain for all I know. But that's not what he said. He was clearly attempting, and failing, to make a joke about Bush, not our troops.

 

[IglooDame]

I don't think Kerry was referring to officers at all when he made his comment - though self-deprecating humor is just about the only type he (and most comedy-deprived politicians) can come even remotely close to getting a laugh with, the stretch to recall his own service as an officer is too great a leap.

 

[MobBoss]

...which is why he was forced to apologize. The last thing people in a tired, old decadent, broken down democracy want to hear is the truth. Truth is the enemy. Especially in an election year. Does anyone actually dispute the fact that for the most part, people with the most educational opportunities are less likely to join the military? Getting a free education is one of the primary reasons people join the military in the first place. Of course there are exceptions, but most people who join the military have limited education and career opportunities, everybody knows that, so why should the guy have to apologize?

Because thats not what he said. His misfired joke didnt indicate that people join the military to get an education, but rather that if they failed in getting an education, ie. if they were stupid, then they would end up in Iraq.

 

[JollyRoger]

Because thats not what he said. His misfired joke didnt indicate that people join the military to get an education, but rather that if they failed in getting an education, ie. if they were stupid, then they would end up in Iraq.

His misfired joke neglected the word "us". As in "end up getting us stuck in Iraq" - which implies an intention to take a pathetic shot at Bush, not a shot at the military in general. Even Bill O' Reilly recognizes this interpretation. Step away from the kool-aid. You are starting to make me wonder if Kerry would have had a point if he had the intention you ascribe to him.

 

[skadistic]

What Kerry said was that people that don't study and do their work get stuck in Iraq. I still don't see how that was about Bush. We know Bush got better grades the Kerry. By thinking this was a joke alluding to Bush it would mean that the US would be stuck even worse under Kerry. When you take into account the other deragitory remarks Kerry has made about the troops in his carreer since 'Nam I think he ment exactly what he said, that the uneducated wind up serving.

 

[IglooDame]

If it was indeed an attempt at a joke (and reading this thread and other sources, I'm now inclined to believe it was), I've got to reassess my opinion of Kerry - downward. If someone wants to believe (and as I noted above, a VietNam vet might have more reason to believe) that military enlistees are less smart/educated than their civilian counterparts, that's one thing. To attempt a joke that poorly scripted, and with such poor timing that it may well actually impact election results, shows a phenomenal lack of real-world people skills.

 

[Che Guava]

If it was indeed an attempt at a joke (and reading this thread and other sources, I'm now inclined to believe it was), I've got to reassess my opinion of Kerry - downward. If someone wants to believe (and as I noted above, a VietNam vet might have more reason to believe) that military enlistees are less smart/educated than their civilian counterparts, that's one thing. To attempt a joke that poorly scripted, and with such poor timing that it may well actually impact election results, shows a phenomenal lack of real-world people skills.

You mean your opinion of someone who think the US military is full of dense under-acheivers ranks higher in opinion that a well-intentioned human robot?

Actually, I'd have to think about that one too....

 

[Little Raven]

If it was indeed an attempt at a joke (and reading this thread and other sources, I'm now inclined to believe it was), I've got to reassess my opinion of Kerry - downward.

Is that really possible at this point? Holy cow...he pretty much bottomed out with me a while ago.

That Kerry was ever nominated for POTUS shows just what a mess the Democratic Party has become.

 

[Murky]

...which is why he was forced to apologize. The last thing people in a tired, old decadent, broken down democracy want to hear is the truth. Truth is the enemy. Especially in an election year. Does anyone actually dispute the fact that for the most part, people with the most educational opportunities are less likely to join the military? Getting a free education is one of the primary reasons people join the military in the first place. Of course there are exceptions, but most people who join the military have limited education and career opportunities, everybody knows that, so why should the guy have to apologize?

That could be true in a lot of cases but I think it's wrong to stereotype the military as people who are uneducated.

Some families have military traditions that go back several generations.

Education is irrelevant to people who see serving as a way to show patriotism for your country.

Most high ranking officers are extremely well educated people.

Also, the military does offer a lot of training programs for their enlisted personnel. It isn't all just about how to blow stuff up. There's high-tech and intelligence fields that you can pursue as a career in the military.

 

[skadistic]

For every one who thinks the US military is made up of dumb grunts go take the ASFAB pass it if you can then tell us how stupid you think the military is.

 

[puglover]

...which is why he was forced to apologize. The last thing people in a tired, old decadent, broken down democracy want to hear is the truth. Truth is the enemy. Especially in an election year. Does anyone actually dispute the fact that for the most part, people with the most educational opportunities are less likely to join the military? Getting a free education is one of the primary reasons people join the military in the first place. Of course there are exceptions, but most people who join the military have limited education and career opportunities, everybody knows that, so why should the guy have to apologize?

Most people join the military because they want to serve their country. My father was an Army paratrooper for a while, and he has a master's degree in Theology, later becoming an associate pastor. His best friend was also a paratrooper, and he had a college degree. He later went on the join the Peace Corps and worked designing and building infrastructure in rural villages.

The uneducated soldier is a shameful stereotype. Many who join the Army actually employ extensive education in what they do.

 

[Urederra]

To gain citizenship? I don't think that's the case in the US. I've never heard of being in the military helps an immigrant become a citizen.

Sorry, I was wrong. Somebody told me that you could, or I overheard some news at the TV and I misunderstood. I found an article where a couple of journalists propose giving citizenship to aliens who want to become american citizens.

link = http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/10/18/AR2006101801500.html

 

[Masquerouge]

I think there's a saying in Marketing that applies pretty well in this discussion:
"do not tell people they're stupid, but never forget they are."

 

[IglooDame]

For every one who thinks the US military is made up of dumb grunts go take the ASFAB pass it if you can then tell us how stupid you think the military is.

Ironically, lots of high school students take the ASVAB with no intention at all of going into the military - many high school guidance counselors will tell you that the ASVAB is the best test of vocational aptitude there is.

And by the way, there's no pass or fail per se, there's just a score from 1 to 99 and qualifying scores for various services and programs within the services. I've seen (and for that matter, on a beta test of the computerized version of the ASVAB, scored) 99's, but I've never seen a score lower than a 9. The 9 came from a kid that, while not exactly a shining example of mankind's sentience, was from a very small remote Alaskan village and was surprised and scared by the escalator at his first trip through Anchorage airport.

 

[De Lorimier]

I can always count on my southern neighbors to take one bad attempt at a joke and turn it around, spin it for a few days and spit it back with as many people confused as possible about what the guy actually meant. Woooooooow! You guys are spectacular!

 

[skadistic]

Ironically, lots of high school students take the ASVAB with no intention at all of going into the military - many high school guidance counselors will tell you that the ASVAB is the best test of vocational aptitude there is.

And by the way, there's no pass or fail per se, there's just a score from 1 to 99 and qualifying scores for various services and programs within the services. I've seen (and for that matter, on a beta test of the computerized version of the ASVAB, scored) 99's, but I've never seen a score lower than a 9. The 9 came from a kid that, while not exactly a shining example of mankind's sentience, was from a very small remote Alaskan village and was surprised and scared by the escalator at his first trip through Anchorage airport.

Thanks for the correction.

 

[Bill3000]

Well, first of all, that's not what he meant, so you can't say thgat he's right. But as for the actual thing... No, I don't necessarily think so.

Of course there are exceptions, but most people who join the military have limited education and career opportunities, everybody knows that, so why should the guy have to apologize?

Perhaps they may have limited educational and career opportunities before they join the military, but that certinatly isn't the case after they join the military. It's literally advertised everywhere, after all - go to the military to get an education. I don't see how it is any different from, for an unequal exam, going to a community college so that you can go to a more prestigious college later on. Sure it may seem less prestigous for one to go through such a process, but it still works out in the end. The result is what you get out of your education, not what you qualify for.

Besides, the military has a ton of different applications, not just the regular old grunt soldier steotype. Engineering, health, security, computer science, etc. are all major examples of how people with no experience with true "military" stuff can still be heavily involved in the military.

Besides, you can't say that the major aspects of the military don't require smarts. Sure, shooting a gun doesn't require smarts, but military tactics and strategy sure do. There's a reason why generals are so few, after all - it requires smarts. More importantly - other than the issue of corruption, there is a very practical reason for why the military is seperate from the civilian government. And that is simply the issue of specialization - quite simply, the military is a lot more complex than the average joe thinks. Not every soldier is going to be a grunt, anyway. (And do you honestly think that someone who makes the military his/her career will stay a private forever?)

This is coming from a guy who (still) has a prejudice of the military filled with the ex-bullies and jocks of high school, and one who can absolutely call himself an elitist who thinks that science is superior to everything. (I really should find that Onion article) It's because the military is an academic field (And absolutely not my speciality) - as well, many application from other fields are extremely important in the military.