Official Poll/Discussion on Renaming IOT Sub Forum

[Nuka-sama]

Why marginalize either community though? Why not let IOT AND NES be a part of the name, be it IOTNES, NESIOT, NES/IOT or IOT/NES. You cannot argue that NES has not become a part of IOT with how many players and games the ex-NESing community has provided to IOT. Even non ex-NESers have called their games "NESIOTs", its a part of bringing the entire community together instead of continuing to divide us into "Ex-NESers" and "IOTers". If we have a new name, then new players would not be put into one category or the other, but rather they would join the unified community

 

[Thorvald of Lym]

You have to understand this from the historical perspective: after literal years of select NESers stonewalling all attempts at a negotiated merger, claiming IOT would appropriate their culture and destroy their identity, the Exodus survivors move into IOT and start pushing for a rebrand, while insisting their old forum is too special to be formally merged.

As hoplitejoe said in the feedback thread, it's having your cake and eating it, too. NES isn't prepared to compromise on its identity, so why should IOT?

 

[Omega124]

It has already merged. De jure should reflect de facto.

I don't disagree. However, the mods have shown they adamantly disagree with you, hence my opposition to a name change without a merger.

 

[Crezth]

You have to understand this from the historical perspective: after literal years of select NESers stonewalling all attempts at a negotiated merger, claiming IOT would appropriate their culture and destroy their identity, the Exodus survivors move into IOT and start pushing for a rebrand, while insisting their old forum is too special to be formally merged.

As hoplitejoe said in the feedback thread, it's having your cake and eating it, too. NES isn't prepared to compromise on its identity, so why should IOT?

Yeah, I understand how it can seem that way, which is why I don't hold it against any IOTers who oppose a rename sans merger. I'd be careful phrasing it about "having [our] cake and eating it too" because there's really no cake being had over in the NES forum nor in the other places NESers have scattered too. The only cake is here in IOT.

As I've tried to articulate, I think nuke is so insistent on the rename because you can make the argument that NES and IOT have already merged in every meaningful sense. Those elements of NES that didn't merge into IOT are inactive anyway, so it's pointless to consider them. The fact those same inactive elements suddenly found the energy to post content when their precious nostalgia reservoir was "threatened" doesn't much change that fact. NES doesn't need to compromise on its identity because its identity is already compromised, no matter what deluded diehards insist.

Personally, I'm prepared to accept NES as a diaspora under the aegis of IOT or whatever more descriptive name you guys choose for yourselves, and in fact I think a rename to NES/IOT is in fact a step in the wrong direction - but, point: when talking about a "merger" of NES and IOT, it's already happened. All active NESers (sometimes called ex-NESers at this point) play and run games in the IOT forum. This is exactly the outcome you would expect if you had formally merged the forums. The only thing is that since this happened naturally it was not ever necessary to merge anything.

Anyway, since NES still has its "own forum" (albeit unused and abandoned), I can't really deny that it's kind of a nose-thumbing to try to rename IOT to NES/IOT. I mean, then you get NES in two places, right? Egad, we're taking over! But try to understand it from our perspective: the NES forum is already dead and the only thing keeping it from being merged into IOT is inertia that I don't have to spend any time describing because you guys have seen it for yourselves.

 

[Thlayli]

Voting in favor of the rename would be a really good step forward in reconciliation with the NESing community. It would show that we're willing to embrace a fresh start and move forward as a community that belongs to neither IOTer or NESer, but both.

Speaking for myself, I would feel more comfortable hosting my game in a renamed roleplaying forum that's accessible to IOTers and NESers. IOT and NES can still exist as important ideas and concepts, but now this will be a place for everyone, rather than an IOT forum that some NESers feel comfortable posting in and others don't.

For this reason I am voting YES for a rename, and I hope you do as well. Since the status quo will also be a poll option, according to BSmith you will still have the choice to back the old IOT name if no better name appeals to you personally.

I don't support a merge, but for those of you who do, consider how a rename might lay the groundwork for a merge to later take place, if that rename causes reconciliation between our communities. I believe this could happen.

Vote yes, for a brighter future together.

 

[gay_Aleks]

Without a merge a rename seems moot.

 

[Thlayli]

I'm trying to make the point that without a rename, a merge in the future is even less possible. And it really isn't moot, there are a lot of people who still can be brought in from the cold with a new name and a new community for roleplaying.

 

[gay_Aleks]

It isn't possible due to certain personalities obstructing it. Not because it's named IOT as opposed to Narrative Games With Words or something of the sort.

 

[Nuka-sama]

You have to understand this from the historical perspective: after literal years of select NESers stonewalling all attempts at a negotiated merger, claiming IOT would appropriate their culture and destroy their identity, the Exodus survivors move into IOT and start pushing for a rebrand, while insisting their old forum is too special to be formally merged.

As hoplitejoe said in the feedback thread, it's having your cake and eating it, too. NES isn't prepared to compromise on its identity, so why should IOT?

Honestly, this is a pretty valid response. I do not expect there to be any past remembrance to the NES community of old. There was some definite discrimination towards IOTers by NESers (embarrassingly, myself included initially). Later, as both communities matured, in age and attitude, NESers like myself, EQ, Crezth and others saw that there was literally no expansion in our current forum, and that IOT was the absolute perfect place to find new members to play in games and ideally to recruit new mods from.

Of course, the events of last September threw that significantly off course, and many NESers ended up in IOT. Quite frankly, for the most part the IOT community has handled the influx VERY well. If the shoe were on the other foot, I'm again embarrassed to say that I do not think we would see the same outcome. And though I have never quite saw myself as an IOTer, I did see a community where I could host games, chat with people, and play with others.

The poll of last September to merge IOT and NES did fail in name, but in spirit it did not. The last remnants of NES on CFC packed their bags anyhow and left to IOT. While our Forum is literally a click away, the integration between the two communities has never been higher. Never before have this many IOTers played in NESes, and never before have this many NESers played in IOTs. ex-NESers like myself have worked to build games, build a community, help others, and in general, I think the Forum of IOT has changed significantly due to the influx of NESers.

I do not particularly care for the old Nes forum anylonger. If it were up to me, it would be either merged or archived. And while I understand that there is some past animosity between our two communities, I think for the most part, it has healed. We have integration more than ever before, but there is still some disconnect. There is still years of division between the two communities that still has yet to be broken down, but we are getting there. And one of the most visual reminders is the name.

That's why I ask for the rename. I do not wish to impose NES on you. I like the name personally, and I know many like the name IOT. I am ok with a combination of that name, but really, any name that can give us a new community structure I think would be beneficial. I think it is time for us to move past our old disagreements, our old division, and embrace the new. NES mods are here not to show you better types of games, but rather to just show you games and run them so that we all can have a good time.

I'm not going to quit in a huff if we don't get a rename. I'd be disappointed, but I'll still be here. But I think that this is a golden opportunity to show that this isn't just IOT anymore. It is a community of both now, and despite the calls against the merger, our community shows that it has happened, and the result was far greater than continued segregation ever could have been.

So vote Yes! Yes to integration! Yes to progress! Yes to a community that eschews our former division and comes together as one!

 

[NinjaCow64]

You have to understand this from the historical perspective: after literal years of select NESers stonewalling all attempts at a negotiated merger, claiming IOT would appropriate their culture and destroy their identity, the Exodus survivors move into IOT and start pushing for a rebrand, while insisting their old forum is too special to be formally merged.

As hoplitejoe said in the feedback thread, it's having your cake and eating it, too. NES isn't prepared to compromise on its identity, so why should IOT?

I sympathise with this position, I really do. The thing is that the people who want to rename the community (for the most part) aren't the same people who are unwilling to merge. This is punishing some NESers for the actions of other NESers who barely interact with each other now. Like this would be like if you guys got penalized for my increasingly poor behaviour on Site Feedback, it has probably happened already. It wouldn't be fair though.

Voting in favor of the rename would be a really good step forward in reconciliation with the NESing community. It would show that we're willing to embrace a fresh start and move forward as a community that belongs to neither IOTer or NESer, but both.

Speaking for myself, I would feel more comfortable hosting my game in a renamed roleplaying forum that's accessible to IOTers and NESers. IOT and NES can still exist as important ideas and concepts, but now this will be a place for everyone, rather than an IOT forum that some NESers feel comfortable posting in and others don't.

For this reason I am voting YES for a rename, and I hope you do as well. Since the status quo will also be a poll option, according to BSmith you will still have the choice to back the old IOT name if no better name appeals to you personally.

I don't support a merge, but for those of you who do, consider how a rename might lay the groundwork for a merge to later take place, if that rename causes reconciliation between our communities. I believe this could happen.

Vote yes, for a brighter future together.

Thy, have you hosted/played in any games in this subforum recently? If not, then why are you voting in the poll?

 

[Thlayli]

Because the outcome of the poll definitely affects me, and because I'm a member of the forum games community. I already explained how a rename would cause me to post here more often, while keeping the old status quo would encourage me to stick to NES.

You're welcome to exclude me, but I think that might prove my point.

 

[Crezth]

Honestly, this is a pretty valid response. I do not expect there to be any past remembrance to the NES community of old. There was some definite discrimination towards IOTers by NESers (embarrassingly, myself included initially). Later, as both communities matured, in age and attitude, NESers like myself, EQ, Crezth and others saw that there was literally no expansion in our current forum, and that IOT was the absolute perfect place to find new members to play in games and ideally to recruit new mods from.

Of course, the events of last September threw that significantly off course, and many NESers ended up in IOT. Quite frankly, for the most part the IOT community has handled the influx VERY well. If the shoe were on the other foot, I'm again embarrassed to say that I do not think we would see the same outcome. And though I have never quite saw myself as an IOTer, I did see a community where I could host games, chat with people, and play with others.

The poll of last September to merge IOT and NES did fail in name, but in spirit it did not. The last remnants of NES on CFC packed their bags anyhow and left to IOT. While our Forum is literally a click away, the integration between the two communities has never been higher. Never before have this many IOTers played in NESes, and never before have this many NESers played in IOTs. ex-NESers like myself have worked to build games, build a community, help others, and in general, I think the Forum of IOT has changed significantly due to the influx of NESers.

I do not particularly care for the old Nes forum anylonger. If it were up to me, it would be either merged or archived. And while I understand that there is some past animosity between our two communities, I think for the most part, it has healed. We have integration more than ever before, but there is still some disconnect. There is still years of division between the two communities that still has yet to be broken down, but we are getting there. And one of the most visual reminders is the name.

That's why I ask for the rename. I do not wish to impose NES on you. I like the name personally, and I know many like the name IOT. I am ok with a combination of that name, but really, any name that can give us a new community structure I think would be beneficial. I think it is time for us to move past our old disagreements, our old division, and embrace the new. NES mods are here not to show you better types of games, but rather to just show you games and run them so that we all can have a good time.

I'm not going to quit in a huff if we don't get a rename. I'd be disappointed, but I'll still be here. But I think that this is a golden opportunity to show that this isn't just IOT anymore. It is a community of both now, and despite the calls against the merger, our community shows that it has happened, and the result was far greater than continued segregation ever could have been.

So vote Yes! Yes to integration! Yes to progress! Yes to a community that eschews our former division and comes together as one!

Upvote. Digg. +1. Thumb. Like. Whatever the kids are saying these days.

 

[Masada]

I've been around for a while, and I know some of the older IOTers quite well. I initially opposed a merger on the not unreasonable grounds that both sides had issues. IOTers were prone to certain sorts of drama, which NES had grown out of, while NES was prone to other sorts IOT hadn't grown into. The first merger debate and how parts of both sides handled things helped to cement that view. Now it's all kind of irrelevant, given that one side has ceased to exist outside a few refugees. But I think it might be worth nonetheless going with a double barrelled name, especially if Nuke and EQ think its a good idea because those guys are contributing and might want their historical links recognised. It's not a big request and it's a small price to pay for good content. Personally, I don't care much either way.

 

[CivOasis]

Apathetic.

 

[Luckymoose]

Of course, the events of last September threw that significantly off course, and many NESers ended up in IOT. Quite frankly, for the most part the IOT community has handled the influx VERY well. If the shoe were on the other foot, I'm again embarrassed to say that I do not think we would see the same outcome. And though I have never quite saw myself as an IOTer, I did see a community where I could host games, chat with people, and play with others.

I find this to be both extraordinarily insulting and ahistorical. The NESing community merged with several other smaller community influxes long before and even during the lifespan of IOT. To say that we are somehow incapable of being tolerant is putting yourselves on a pedestal for nothing more than personal gain.

I'm frankly through with this horsecrap about NES being dead or inactive, or somehow too elitist to do this or that. It's a continued case of slander used to harm, besmirch, and belittle, and that's just not what CFC is supposed to be about. I've seen periods where IOT was inactive, or barely held games together more than a couple weeks at a time, and at no point did anyone from the NES side come in and say, "These guys are dead, so let's spit on them!" So please do both hobbies a favor and zip it. It's puerile. It's toxic. It's does nothing but further divide what could be coexisting and prosperous hobbies. Rename IOT if you want, but please cut this sort of garbage out.

 

[Arrow Gamer]

NES's old guard have been, in the three years I've participated in it, cripplingly elitist. This includes quite a few people, and quite a few meanings of elitist, but to say that the people who frequented #NES would have been happy receiving the IOT community runs contrary to the attitudes they've expressed in WWW, merge discussion threads, and chat. Obviously this is not one size fits all, but I can confirm that the reversed situation would have been less graceful and accompanied with much more whining by Lucky, Symph, and such than how the old guard of IOT (Sone, Thor, Mech, Red among others) handled the NES exodus.

 

[Luckymoose]

NES's old guard have been, in the three years I've participated in it, cripplingly elitist. This includes quite a few people, and quite a few meanings of elitist, but to say that the people who frequented #NES would have been happy receiving the IOT community runs contrary to the attitudes they've expressed in WWW, merge discussion threads, and chat. Obviously this is not one size fits all, but I can confirm that the reversed situation would have been less graceful and accompanied with much more whining by Lucky, Symph, and such than how the old guard of IOT (Sone, Thor, Mech, Red among others) handled the NES exodus.

No such evidence exists. The original issues with merger were less to do with IOT, and more to do with democracy (not letting one community outweight another), inclusivity rules changing the size, scope, and nature of games, and the hostile nature some individuals expressed about how they see things being run, not to mention staff issues. There has never been a point in time where anyone I know in NES, including myself, would say "no" to playing in a game or letting an IOTer join a game with them. The slander against me, in particular, is unfounded, as I've probably spent more time than most in this community outreaching to newer players and actively helping them. Of course, people who don't know me can judge me by certain posts or out of context conversations, but that doesn't change the facts, and anyone who does know me (BirdJaguar included, as he's said) knows such intolerance and "elitism" is based on nothing.

We all faced elitism to some extent when we were new, of course. I did. You did. Everyone does. Have there been sour apples in NESing? Certainly. But there have been just as many and continue to be just as many in IOT flipping it. Hell, some of the ones doing the souring have done so from both sides. It's easy to demonize people to a crowd who has never had prolonged exposure to the demonizee.

Simply because someone disagrees with a merger does not mean they disagree or dislike the people on either side. What I see coming up here is actual prejudice, however, and that's what I'm calling out. There is repeated, thunderous prejudice and slander against the people who did not merge into IOT, and it is beyond silly and beyond insulting at this point. So to the people who say hateful, hurtful, exclusionary things, I say stop. You don't know people, or you have your own agenda, and neither give you a right to be so insulting, so demanding, or so blatantly two-faced.

 

[erez87]

NES's old guard have been, in the three years I've participated in it, cripplingly elitist. This includes quite a few people, and quite a few meanings of elitist, but to say that the people who frequented #NES would have been happy receiving the IOT community runs contrary to the attitudes they've expressed in WWW, merge discussion threads, and chat. Obviously this is not one size fits all, but I can confirm that the reversed situation would have been less graceful and accompanied with much more whining by Lucky, Symph, and such than how the old guard of IOT (Sone, Thor, Mech, Red among others) handled the NES exodus.

That's funny since the only person who showed any sort of negativity to me being on IOT chat was a NESer. Everyone else have been a lot of fun. A superior experience to #nes as a whole.

Anyway, I don't see how I should have any say what the name of IOT forum should be, IOTers should be the ones deciding. It would be nice to have the word NES in the place I play thou...

 

[Angst]

You have to understand this from the historical perspective: after literal years of select NESers stonewalling all attempts at a negotiated merger, claiming IOT would appropriate their culture and destroy their identity, the Exodus survivors move into IOT and start pushing for a rebrand, while insisting their old forum is too special to be formally merged.

As hoplitejoe said in the feedback thread, it's having your cake and eating it, too. NES isn't prepared to compromise on its identity, so why should IOT?

I know the voices you are talking about. As abrasive as they are, please don't extrapolate them unto all of us. Some people act toxic, some have problems with entitlement, some have victim complexes. I have personally wished for the merger for a long long time - although from my current experience with IOT I don't know if it's really needed. The NES forum is pretty much dead both here and on the Frontier (even if Thlayli is doing a glorious last stand - I tried myself too, to no avail). If the community dies, why merge with it? Then there will be much less drama too.

IOT is a great place to be right now, as I can get the juicy fix I've been missing for so long - and the attitude has a lot less poison and bitterness.

Personally, I'd love if the subforum were renamed. Simply because I don't think IOT is a great name. Worldbuilding Games was suggested a long time ago. I think that much more communicates what this is about.

But this isn't me bringing cultural genocide upon you after migrating here. If you don't want to change, don't. I don't mind, because I already feel welcome. It's just a name, and changing it would just help channeling new players here.

 

[hoplitejoe]

Looks like were all too busy trying to 1 up NES to change to a sensible name then.

If we aren't going to do that it would be good if at least we could change the description under the forum name.
"A Forum of IOT games." really doesn't give any clues what the forum is for.