OMFG...I lost a battleship to a frigate!!!

[Quintillus]

The battleship spots the frigates on a foggy day. They fire a salvo, but don't hit the frigate, and by the time they've reloaded, the frigate is lost in the fog. The battleship goes in the direction the frigate was going, but a few minutes later, before the fog has lifted, runs into an iceberg and slowly sinks.

Not like there haven't been ships destroyed by icebergs. Sure a modern cruiser would probably have the equipment to detect them in time to change course even if there was very heavy fog, but that wasn't necessarily the case sixty years ago.

Or just a mechanical error. A gun malfunctions when it is fired and sets off all the weapons in the room causing a huge hole to be blown in the side of the battleship. The same thing could occur in a frigate of course, but we've seen frigates lose to galleys as well.

 

[Evie]

A battleship would never lose to a wooden frigate, true.

But there are MANY factors abstracted into a Civ battle (combat itself, weather, etc) which are all presented as random rolls of the RNG.

Is there a particular reason that prevent minefields, accidents, and other things that are not represented in the game as it stands from being considered as abstracted into the RNG rolls?

Edit : you know, you guys don't exactly make my job easier by invoking far-fetched scenarios like icebergs (I'm aware of exactly one major naval disaster involving an iceberg, and it's not likely it would have happend to a warship) or gun malfunctions, when there are plenty of less far-fetched explanations (magazine fire, reefs, minefields) that are actually supported by historical events.

 

[mourndraken]

that's a good idea foobarred

 

[Evie]

It has limits, though.

If Player A has reached technology for battleships and wind up in war with player B whose still a few techs behind and barely even at ironclad-esque technology, then player B's frigates should still look like frigates.

But it would probably be an improvement - it doesn,t make much sense that a nation with the ability to build battleships would still have frigates around.

 

[mourndraken]

I think that it is possible to make this graphics change when any civ passes into a new era. Visually it would make these stupid encounters easier to accept.

 

[Evie]

It's possible, but it's not really sensible - a civilization that doesn't have the technology to build riffles shouldn't suddenly start having rifle-armed axemen because someone else has riffles.

Even if it doesn't affect the game.

Honestly, what I would do is integrate the justifications into the game : ie, if one of your unit loses a battle against a far weaker unit, the game displays a message giving a reason for the loss.

IE, "Your battleship struck a mine while searching for an enemy frigate!"

 

[mourndraken]

so if any civ advances into a new era, the graphics (not the names or strengths) for all obsolete units would change game wide; for all civs.

 

[Evie]

But that still doesn't make much sense either.

 

[mourndraken]

where are these mines coming from ? you are giving technology to a unit that doesn't have that weapon. For sure frigates didn't use minefields.

 

[mourndraken]

This would be a cosmetic change that we humans can relate to.

 

[mourndraken]

having a random reason pop during a battle is something that I've never seen in a mod for CIV. A graphics change is something that can be done.

 

[Evie]

Ah, yeah, if you mean for a mod, then graphic changes is probably easier to do.

I was more looking at things Civilization could do.

And actually early mines and late frigates existed at roughly the same time.

(and you could always have "Your ship was destroyed in an accident").

 

[dutchking]

OMFG...I lost a battleship to a frigate!!!

This crap happems. Its one of the very annoying annoyances in Civ.

 

[mourndraken]

David Bushnell created crude mines by packing gunpowder into butter churns and beer kegs and setting them afloat in the Delaware River to drift down onto the British fleet at Philadelphia. As a student at Yale University, Bushnell worked on the development of underwater explosives. In his research, he discovered that gunpowder could be exploded underwater. During the American Revolution Bushnell was authorized to design a sea mine (usually referred to as a "torpedo" by Bushnell) to be used against the British fleet. He filled kegs with gunpowder and assembled a flintlock mechanism adjusted so that a light shock would release the hammer and fire the powder.

Bushnell sent the floating kegs down the Delaware River in December 1777 with the hope that one or all of these kegs would drift into the British ships anchored at Philadelphia. Although this attempt by Bushnell is referred to in history books as the Battle of the Kegs, there was no actual battle. The keg mines (torpedoes) did not meet with success. One of the kegs that had been spotted by two boys exploded when they tried to retrieve it, killing them and alerting the British to be on the lookout for the kegs. The British destroyed the rest of the kegs by firing into them as they floated by.

These things were useless at the time. There is no way they could be thought to sink a metal hulled vessle. Sorry.

 

[Evie]

Frigates remained in service much later than 1777, though.

There were still sail frigates in service during the American Civil War, and the last mixed sail-steam frigates fell out of use not all that long ago.

By which time, mines had already become much more frequent ; the first sinking of a western ship by mine is (per wiki) the Ironclad USS Cairo in 1862, at which time there certainly were still frigates in service.

 

[surdanis]

Simple... you weren't playing the Wolfshanze Mod... these naval anomolies are a thing of the past.




Why do I hear "the reef" story every time this happens? Folks... a battleship can fire volkswagon-sized shells over 20-miles accurately... why on God's green earth, if a Frigate went into treacherous waters would a battleship follow (and why does the frigate with only wind-power always make it through the reefs, when a much more controleable battleship doesn't?). If you'd like to cling to even the slightest bit of reality, a battleship would annihilate a frigate about 20-miles away from the reef.

I also don't tink two or three hundred guys with swords and muskets are going to overwhelm a ship of 1,500 men with rifles and automatic weapons... not that the guys in a frigate would even have much luck getting over the sides of the ship (and how did the frigate get within 20 miles of the battleship without being annihilated).

You might as well start justifying the club-weilding warrior defeating the modern tank... it's just as absurd.

By any chance, does your mod include bombardment with Naval Units beyond one tile? I would like to see a mod that does just that. Not just ship-to-ship combat, but I would like to see shore bombardment (other than cities). I'm trying to learn all this coding stuff, and any help in trying to make similar code to do that on my own would be greatly appreciated!

 

[Methos]

Moderator Action: Let's try to keep trolling and name calling out of the discussion. I seem to recall another thread with this topic having problems. Please keep this one from going that route.

 

[Methos]

Remember that Civ4 battles are based off of percentages. Meaning that there is always a chance for an advanced unit to be destroyed by a less advanced and inferior unit.

 

[Wolfshanze]

The justifications roll-on...

Not buying any of them... pretty sure no modern Battleship in the history of warfare has ever been sunk by an age of sail vessel.

Yes... Civ4 is abstract... but it's simple enough to mod even those percentages into something much, much more unlikely to occur then Firaxis left it as. I refuse to allow Firaxis to give frigates a decent chance of sinking modern ships (and Firaxis did just that). Instead of justifying it... I've worked on fixing it.

 

[Beerchugger]

What is the % chance of a battleship losing in a battle with a Frigate assuming both are full health, have no upgrades, and no other factors are influencing the battle.