Organic craze gone too far?

[Moonbat]

I appreciate that you were trying to make some sort of cutting point, but, honestly, this is just a verbal faceplant.

True caring would be to open up the markets, not some crazy voodoo economics that can't possibly work and which actually just create more problems.

 

[negZero]

Organic food really does tastes better a lot of the time (I know there is people who debate this, but trust me it does).

I usually buy it for the tastes rather than any actual belief that it's morally superior or healthier. It may or may not be, but I don't really care since I'm not really a glutton and even when I buy normal brands I avoid the really bad companies like Tyson.

Willing to do a blind taste test to back that statement up? Cause everyone else that did found that the non-organic food tasted better. Heck if you watch Penn & Teller show they tested this with people that normally eat organic food and vast majority picked non-organic food.

I get organic local fruits & vegetables delivered weekly, but organic isn't the main reason for this. For me, 'local' is the key word. Given the choice, I'd buy local, non-organic produce over imported organic produce (this rarely comes up though as most local produce seems to be organic).

When I need to run to the grocery store for produce, I get what's cheapest or, if available, what's local. I don't look for organic labels. Unfortunately most grocery stores have a very small selection of local produce that is limited to just a few things (ie local corn on the cob or Okaganan fruits in the summer)

Do you go to the farm that it was grown at? Cause otherwise it could come from anywhere and you wouldn't know about.

Basically organic food benefits are all myths.

 

[aimeeandbeatles]

I thought voodoo was sticking needles into little wax dolls. I dont understand that.

 

[bombshoo]

Willing to do a blind taste test to back that statement up? Cause everyone else that did found that the non-organic food tasted better. Heck if you watch Penn & Teller show they tested this with people that normally eat organic food and vast majority picked non-organic food.



Do you go to the farm that it was grown at? Cause otherwise it could come from anywhere and you wouldn't know about.

Basically organic food benefits are all myths.

I've done the blind tastes test and I can usually tell, Though I'm willing to consider it isn't the "organicness" of the food that is making it tastes better, but rather that stores that stock organic food tend to stock fresher produce and have better quality meats in general. All I have to do is go to an organic market versus a normal grocery store and I can see the visible difference in the meat and produce. In a normal grocery store you get cuts without much actual meat and they are often off color, and lazily butchered. Similarly, the produce is usually all wilted and browning. Regardless of the actual reasons for this, I reach the same conclusion: buying organic tastes better and I enjoy it more.

It's easy to understand why organic food should be like this. Though some major agro-businesses have gotten into the organic market, it still isn't mass produced in the same way that the meat and produce is for normal grocery stores. The lack of preservatives in most things labeled organic food also means that the product turnover must be much higher at organic markets. Given that many preservative only do things like keep the food the expected color and texture without preventing any loss of tastes, this is important. Basically at organic markets, the quality control is just better. I suppose it's possible to have a non-organic market with the same levels of quality control, but in my pretty decent experience with cooking (and shopping for food a lot of different places) I have never seen one that compared.

I've seen the Penn and Teller test and while I normally don't mind them, I can say that episode really was BS. I'm sure on the taste test, they got the finest non-organic food available (which as I mentioned earlier, being able to find is actually quite rare at normal grocery stores). Second of all they used the Hudson Institute, a major agro-industrial lobbyist organization (and about as biased as you could be), as a major source that if I remember right basically lied about the use of hormone injection in meat (I can't remember specifics, but it was something like all meat has hormones in it, but they didn't differentiate between hormones). On top of that, they failed to address the issue of what the average person is used to in their food. What you have to remember is that the vast majority of Americans are basically addicted to sugar and salt. A lot of what they regularly eat it does actually taste better to them than organic food maybe, but they are not really tasting the food. After you eat food not packed full of additives for awhile you come to realize the difference and for most people, it's for the better. If you are happy buying and eating nothing but the that because you like it better, that's fine with me but personally I prefer the tastes of what I'm eating not to be masked. When I cook, I generally end up with the best food when I come as close to starting from square one with the ingredients I'm given so I can control all of the sugar, sodium, acid etc in my dish.

On the topic of knowing if something is local, if you really know what you are doing, you can actually tell if something is local just by the smell and color. I personally can't do this really, though I know chefs who visit the farms and can generally get a good idea of where something was grown. Also one of the easiest ways to distinguish is just generally the fresher something looks and tastes the more likely it is that it is local. As I stated earlier, preservatives only go so far.

 

[Traitorfish]

I thought voodoo was sticking needles into little wax dolls. I dont understand that.

He's using it metaphorically to mean something irrational that doesn't really work.

He's also grossly over-simplifying something that was never intended as the be all and end all of economic progress, but that's another discussion entirely.

 

[aimeeandbeatles]

Oh that makes sense... I thought he meant they were sticking needles in wax dolls to hurt economists. That wouldnt be too nice.

 

[negZero]

I've done the blind tastes test and I can usually tell, Though I'm willing to consider it isn't the "organicness" of the food that is making it tastes better, but rather that stores that stock organic food tend to stock fresher produce and have better quality meats in general.

You do realize in actual blind taste test neither side would be older since to get real results they need to as close to the same as possible.

All I have to do is go to an organic market versus a normal grocery store and I can see the visible difference in the meat and produce. In a normal grocery store you get cuts without much actual meat and they are often off color, and lazily butchered. Similarly, the produce is usually all wilted and browning. Regardless of the actual reasons for this, I reach the same conclusion: buying organic tastes better and I enjoy it more.

Lazily butchered has nothing to do with food and more about the guy cutting it. Difference in color is because "organic" food doesn't keep as long as the other one does allowing store to sell it for longer period of time.

It's easy to understand why organic food should be like this. Though some major agro-businesses have gotten into the organic market, it still isn't mass produced in the same way that the meat and produce is for normal grocery stores.

Big businesses owns almost all of the "organic" farms in America and willing to bet its same for rest of world. So yes they are mass producing as much of the stuff as they can.

The lack of preservatives in most things labeled organic food also means that the product turnover must be much higher at organic markets. Given that many preservative only do things like keep the food the expected color and texture without preventing any loss of tastes, this is important. Basically at organic markets, the quality control is just better. I suppose it's possible to have a non-organic market with the same levels of quality control, but in my pretty decent experience with cooking (and shopping for food a lot of different places) I have never seen one that compared.

That is problem with the stores, not the food.

I've seen the Penn and Teller test and while I normally don't mind them, I can say that episode really was BS. I'm sure on the taste test, they got the finest non-organic food available (which as I mentioned earlier, being able to find is actually quite rare at normal grocery stores).

You do realize they film in California home of one of largest organic food markets in America and have army of nameless interns? If they couldn't find top stuff then who can?

Second of all they used the Hudson Institute, a major agro-industrial lobbyist organization (and about as biased as you could be), as a major source that if I remember right basically lied about the use of hormone injection in meat (I can't remember specifics, but it was something like all meat has hormones in it, but they didn't differentiate between hormones).

Read the first point in this article, linky. Organic food is controlled by big businesses, so when a big business lap dog disagrees you know something is wrong.

On top of that, they failed to address the issue of what the average person is used to in their food. What you have to remember is that the vast majority of Americans are basically addicted to sugar and salt. A lot of what they regularly eat it does actually taste better to them than organic food maybe, but they are not really tasting the food. After you eat food not packed full of additives for awhile you come to realize the difference and for most people, it's for the better.

Umm you do realize that they kept track of how many people normally eat organic food and there picks. The majority of them went with non-organic food.

On the topic of knowing if something is local, if you really know what you are doing, you can actually tell if something is local just by the smell and color. I personally can't do this really, though I know chefs who visit the farms and can generally get a good idea of where something was grown. Also one of the easiest ways to distinguish is just generally the fresher something looks and tastes the more likely it is that it is local. As I stated earlier, preservatives only go so far.

Most skilled chef can only narrow it down to region and even thats not to hard when you know what region grows what. Also no you can't tell by it being fresher and taste because stores cycle there stocks on all of there products.

Basically unless you like throwing money away there is no reason to pick "organic" over the normal stuff.

 

[bombshoo]

You do realize in actual blind taste test neither side would be older since to get real results they need to as close to the same as possible.

I feel like you missed my point here. I even agreed with you and said it might not be the "organicness" that matters, but that organic stores almost always have higher quality food.

Lazily butchered has nothing to do with food and more about the guy cutting it. Difference in color is because "organic" food doesn't keep as long as the other one does allowing store to sell it for longer period of time.

Actually lazy butchering and color do have a lot to do with the way the food is grown and processed. The diet and habitat of the animal can affect its color significantly. Butchering is also more likely to suffer in non-organic food as the texture and fat content of the meat can be varied, making it much more difficult to cut properly.

Big businesses owns almost all of the "organic" farms in America and willing to bet its same for rest of world. So yes they are mass producing as much of the stuff as they can.

Yes, as I stated many big businesses own organic farms but that doesn't mean the production is the same. Organic farms, for one thing are generally smaller operations but with more manual labor percentage wise than large farms, even if they are actually owned by a larger company. This can easily (but not always) translate into more quality control. It is also worth noting that most of the buy outs of organic farms by big businesses have been fairly recent developments and concerns about degeneration of quality because of this are still being discussed.

That is problem with the stores, not the food.

It is a problem with the producers as well since they are often the ones who put the preservatives into the food.

You do realize they film in California home of one of largest organic food markets in America and have army of nameless interns? If they couldn't find top stuff then who can?

Yes, they surely had the best quality non-organic food which is something that is in all honesty difficult to come by. If you go to an organic market, the food is almost universally of good quality compared to a grocery store, regardless of who's fault this is or the reasons for it, it is a reason to shop at an organic market.

Read the first point in this article, linky. Organic food is controlled by big businesses, so when a big business lap dog disagrees you know something is wrong.

Though organic food is a much smaller percentage of their total business. Buying out organic farms was just to get a cut of the niche market. The big bucks are still and will always be made on the normal mass produced food because the smaller yields and higher labor costs mean organic food will always be a luxury item.

Umm you do realize that they kept track of how many people normally eat organic food and there picks. The majority of them went with non-organic food.

I was mostly mentioning the fact they failed to address the issue completely, not so much in the context of the taste test. Though if you just walked out on the street and tried the taste test, I am sure it would matter. Why the people who took the test liked what they did there really isn't anyway of knowing for sure.

Most skilled chef can only narrow it down to region and even thats not to hard when you know what region grows what. Also no you can't tell by it being fresher and taste because stores cycle there stocks on all of there products.

Well anything within the same region is usually considered local at a grocery store. If I want really local I'll go to a farmer's market where it's simply guaranteed. It being fresher isn't a sign all on its own, but its a good hint. Again knowing how to look for the use of preservatives in a food helps to be able to tell if something is local.

 

[negZero]

I feel like you missed my point here. I even agreed with you and said it might not be the "organicness" that matters, but that organic stores almost always have higher quality food.
In blind taste test both foods will be as equal fresh as possible. however you wanted to stalk about how in the stores they do blah.

Actually lazy butchering and color do have a lot to do with the way the food is grown and processed.

Lazy butchering is the fault of the butcher not the food.

Butchering is also more likely to suffer in non-organic food as the texture and fat content of the meat can be varied, making it much more difficult to cut properly

Actcaully the non-"organic" animals will make more meat then the "organic" ones.

Yes, as I stated many big businesses own organic farms but that doesn't mean the production is the same. Organic farms, for one thing are generally smaller operations but with more manual labor percentage wise than large farms, even if they are actually owned by a larger company. This can easily (but not always) translate into more quality control. It is also worth noting that most of the buy outs of organic farms by big businesses have been fairly recent developments and concerns about degeneration of quality because of this are still being discussed.

First off read the link big businesses owns the farms and has owned them for very long time. Quality control is just what can be sold since the rest of there crops have died or is filled stuff like E.Coli.

It is a problem with the producers as well since they are often the ones who put the preservatives into the food.

Product turnover is stores job.

Yes, they surely had the best quality non-organic food which is something that is in all honesty difficult to come buy. If you go to an organic market, the food is almost universally of good quality compared to a grocery store, regardless of who's fault this is or the reasons for it, it is a reason to shop at an organic market.

Live near a organic food store, nobody brothers going in there since food tends to be overpriced and nearly spoiled. The city I live in is surrounded by Mennonite and normal farms. See I can give anecdotal evidence too. Also they showed the "organic" and normal stuff together, they both seemed just as ripe and your so called better stuff still lost.

Though organic food is a much smaller percentage of their total business. Buying out organic farms was just to get a cut of the niche market. The big bucks are still and will always be made on the normal mass produced food because due to the smaller yields and higher labor costs, organic food will always be a luxury item.

Again they own the niche market and normal market so they don't care which wagon your own. So why did one of there lap dogs say that "organic" food wasn't good?

I was mostly mentioning the fact they failed to address the issue completely, not so much in the context of the taste test.

They did a blind taste test, asked people what they normally ate, and kept track of the results. Over 3/4 of the people who ate "organic" food picked the normal stuff. What more did they not address.

Well anything within the same region is usually considered local at a grocery store.

I said that highly skilled chef could narrow it down to region never said that region was local.

If I want really local I'll go to a farmer's market where it's simply guaranteed. It being fresher isn't a sign all on its own, but its a good hint.

NO IT ISN'T. I worked in grocery store all throughout high school stocking fresh produce alley once a week, you can not tell if it was grown locally or not by freshest. Its called rotating the stock.

Again knowing how to look for the use of preservatives in a food helps to be able to tell if something is local.

O and how do you do that? Do go shopping with microscope with you?

 

[illram]

I think the most important thing is knowing where the food comes from, knowing what ingredients are in it, knowing how fresh it is (or isn't), etc., and having an informed opinion on exactly what those ingredients are and why you do or do not want to eat them.

As for organic certification, it's well known the USDA Organic label is a cheap cop out for big food companies, but there are a wide variety of established, respected private "organic" certification organizations with varying standards that you can trust.

Personally, I basically trust everything in Trader Joes. More often than not their ingredients are fairly basic and don't include all the chemical crap in other stuff, plus it's cheap and tastes good.

 

[Adria]

Do you go to the farm that it was grown at? Cause otherwise it could come from anywhere and you wouldn't know about.

I haven't been to the actual farms, but I have spoken with some of the farmers at a weekly farmer's market.

The stuff I get does occasionally include some out-of-town produce, but everything is clearly labeled as to where it comes from. Their product lists and newsletters are pretty specific as to where the food comes from, and farm information is provided on their website. Everything is open and readily verifiable so I doubt they're lying as to where the produce came from.

 

[negZero]

I haven't been to the actual farms, but I have spoken with some of the farmers at a weekly farmer's market.

The stuff I get does occasionally include some out-of-town produce, but everything is clearly labeled as to where it comes from. Their product lists and newsletters are pretty specific as to where the food comes from, and farm information is provided on their website. Everything is open and readily verifiable so I doubt they're lying as to where the produce came from.

Who said there lying? Not telling you when you just assume its local is not lying.

 

[Adria]

Who said there lying? Not telling you when you just assume its local is not lying.

There is no room for assumptions with this organization. They clearly spell out where their produce (and all other food products) is from. Whether it says "local" or "BC" or "Mexico", they're telling the customer where it was grown; if the produce is not from the place they advertise, they would be lying.

 

[bombshoo]

In blind taste test both foods will be as equal fresh as possible. however you wanted to stalk about how in the stores they do blah.

I did want to talk about the stores. You are the one who brought up the taste test. Again, I even admitted that non-organic food may be just as good if it were actually handled properly but it's not in my experience.

Actcaully the non-"organic" animals will make more meat then the "organic" ones.

When did I say they didn't? I just said the cuts can be fattier and trickier to work with.

First off read the link big businesses owns the farms and has owned them for very long time. Quality control is just what can be sold since the rest of there crops have died or is filled stuff like E.Coli.

"A very long time" is sort of relative. Large corporations only really started buying them up in the 90s and early 2000s en mass. Here is a chart showing most of the aquistions of organic companies and most of them appear to be after 2000.

Spoiler :

I am not really sure what you are trying to say about the quality control, but the smaller amount of food they are dealing with makes it easier to manage and oversee.

Live near a organic food store, nobody brothers going in there since food tends to be overpriced and nearly spoiled. The city I live in is surrounded by Mennonite and normal farms. See I can give anecdotal evidence too. Also they showed the "organic" and normal stuff together, they both seemed just as ripe and your so called better stuff still lost.

I see you can, but my point has always just been the reasoning behind me buying organic food. I wasn't really trying to convince anyone that it was better. If the organic market sucks in your town, I don't blame you for not buying from there, but it's really quite the opposite here.

Again they own the niche market and normal market so they don't care which wagon your own. So why did one of there lap dogs say that "organic" food wasn't good?

Well for starters, large companies completely dominate the normal market and not all of them yet have an organic subsidiary. Also, a small but fair portion of the organic market is still free. As I stated earlier, the buying out of organic companies has caused some controversy. Many people no longer even consider the food produced by these organic subsidiaries of larger companies to be organic at all, instead believing a necessary prerequisite to be able to consider something organic is that it was produced from a small and/or local business.

They did a blind taste test, asked people what they normally ate, and kept track of the results. Over 3/4 of the people who ate "organic" food picked the normal stuff. What more did they not address.

Again, I wasn't talking about the context of their taste test but their decision to discuss the topic of organic food and leave out one of the major issues.

I said that highly skilled chef could narrow it down to region never said that region was local.

Well if they know their region than they can know what's local right? I am saying that in many grocery stores anything from the surrounding region is considered local. Typically less than 7 hours driving time. At a farmer's market, locality usually means much closer than that.

NO IT ISN'T. I worked in grocery store all throughout high school stocking fresh produce alley once a week, you can not tell if it was grown locally or not by freshest. Its called rotating the stock.

I said it's a hint not the single indication. Local food takes less time to get to the store. I understand they rotate stock but if something is rotting it either means that there is low turnover for that product or that it went bad very recently after getting there, meaning that it likely was in transport for a while in a preservation unit and didn't last long once removed and shelved.

O and how do you do that? Do go shopping with microscope with you?

Ideally you read the label and check.

 

[negZero]

I did want to talk about the stores. You are the one who brought up the taste test. Again, I even admitted that non-organic food may be just as good if it were actually handled properly but it's not in my experience.

And I want with science route, why? Simple, it gives you a better picture .

When did I say they didn't? I just said the cuts can be fattier and trickier to work with.

Get a better butcher then.

"A very long time" is sort of relative. Large corporations only really started buying them up in the 90s and early 2000s en mass. Here is a chart showing most of the aquistions of organic companies and most of them appear to be after 2000.

Spoiler :

Judging by how little they cost to buy out they were small regional chains that have little to no real market share were only brought out for the customer base.

I am not really sure what you are trying to say about the quality control, but the smaller amount of food they are dealing with makes it easier to manage and oversee.

Read the link I gave already. Basically organic food is worst for health unless you like E.Coli and cow #2 all over it.

I see you can, but my point has always just been the reasoning behind me buying organic food. I wasn't really trying to convince anyone that it was better. If the organic market sucks in your town, I don't blame you for not buying from there, but it's really quite the opposite here.

Then you know what say you like buying organic food just because you like it instead of spouting off the myths about it.

Well for starters, large companies completely dominate the normal market and not all of them yet have an organic subsidiary.

If you read the link I gave they got 95% of it in one state. Willing to say that they control large chucks like that in rest of world

As I stated earlier, the buying out of organic companies has caused some controversy. Many people no longer even consider the food produced by these organic subsidiaries of larger companies to be organic at all, instead believing a necessary prerequisite to be able to consider something organic is that it was produced from a small and/or local business.

As point out before they don't exist in many areas and if you live in America no one has to say where the stuff has come from.

Again, I wasn't talking about the context of their taste test but their decision to discuss the topic of organic food and leave out one of the major issues.

Well if they know their region than they can know what's local right?

Not when you realize that those areas can be massive in size.

I am saying that in many grocery stores anything from the surrounding region is considered local. Typically less than 7 hours driving time. At a farmer's market, locality usually means much closer than that.

As stated before they never have to tell you the truth of where comes from.

I said it's a hint not the single indication.

And I keep telling you that you can't use it as an indication by self or with 10 billion other indications

Local food takes less time to get to the store. I understand they rotate stock but if something is rotting it either means that there is low turnover for that product or that it went bad very recently after getting there, meaning that it likely was in transport for a while in a preservation unit and didn't last long once removed and shelved.

If you see rotting food its about time to check the stocks also the organic rots faster and needs to be changed more often

Ideally you read the label and check.

They don't have to give you single label. You would know this if you did watch the Penn&Teller episode since they even talked about it.

 

[Arwon]

On Fair Trade:

My basic point is this: the debate about FT is currently treating a complex and heterogenous phenomena as a single monolithic entity. There is no one FT system. There are different organisations, which operate differently, and – surprise, surprise – these policies play out differently with different crops, and in different socio-economic contexts. I realise this is a bit of a lame argument, but it strikes that the people in FT would probably be quite receptive to efforts to make them improve their practices. I'm going to suggest what a couple of ways forward might be.

Worth a read. Very smart guy.

 

[Xanikk999]

Wait, since when are these "additives" good for you?

Since when did food that was good for you taste good.

Wait don't answer that, I'm sure there are exceptions to the rule but for the most part unhealthy food tastes better.

 

[bombshoo]

And I want with science route, why? Simple, it gives you a better picture .

You hardly went the science route. You haven't given me any scientific reasons that organic food always tastes worse besides a taste test that Penn and Teller did.

Get a better butcher then.

I did and he happened to be at the organic food market.

Judging by how little they cost to buy out they were small regional chains that have little to no real market share were only brought out for the customer base.

Most organic food producers are small. I never said they weren't. I simply pointed out that most have been acquired recently when you said that they had not. It's a newer trend for major food processors to have organic subsidiaries.

Read the link I gave already. Basically organic food is worst for health unless you like E.Coli and cow #2 all over it.

I never argued health in regards to quality control, only taste which seems to be better when I buy organic food because it generally is fresher where I shop. I don't know if this is simply the quality of the store, the higher turnover rates, the actual composition of the food or a mixture of all three.

Then you know what say you like buying organic food just because you like it instead of spouting off the myths about it.

Again, I never said I supported any of the health and/or environmental "myths" (though there is so many studies being done for and against, I'm not entirely convinced either way yet). I was arguing from personal tastes from the beginning and simply backed up why it can taste better with some reasoning when you inquired about it.

If you read the link I gave they got 95% of it in one state. Willing to say that they control large chucks like that in rest of world

5% is still a share of the market, and it's not difficult to buy from that 5% if you know where and what to look for.

As point out before they don't exist in many areas and if you live in America no one has to say where the stuff has come from.

They don't legally, though any good store/company keeps you at least somewhat informed if you ask. If they won't tell you, you probably are going to a bad store. And yes, they always could be lying, but putting on a charade like this (having a little map at that shows the route of the food to the store, giving a chart showing regional differences and leaving particular state/farm labels on food) seems to be taking it a bit far. I'm inclined to believe them given the amount of plausible evidence they deliver that the food is from where they say.

As stated by Adria, at an organic farmer's market where you actually get to meet the grower, it's even better. I suppose they technically could be going to the grocery store, picking up a bushel of apples and selling me them at a mark-up, but given the farmer's market I usually attend is on a farm, I doubt this.

Not when you realize that those areas can be massive in size.

But food can get pretty specific to an area. Vidalia onions come from a very specific area for instance.

As stated before they never have to tell you the truth of where comes from.

They don't have too, but if they don't provide good evidence then I am not inclined to trust them anyways. Research beforehand on food goes a long way, which I try to do regularly. An instance that comes to mind is a certain variety of Mozzarella Cheese that I heard was very good but after reading about I didn't buy because it turned out the Comorra (the Neapolitan Mafia) was dumping toxic waste near the farms. In short I do research when I can but when I don't, I trust the store isn't lying to me about the product (though it did say where the mozzarella was coming from, just not that it was polluted).

If you see rotting food its about time to check the stocks also the organic rots faster and needs to be changed more often

Yes, but when you have natural degeneration rates, you don't end up with misplaced trust on the preservatives, which often times only work as long as the food is in transport and go bad nearly after after arriving at the store.

Again, I'm hardly arguing that all organic food is always better. All I stated was that food that I'm told is organic tastes better to me, where I come from it's almost universally fresher and I have had much better experiences with it in general. In addition to this, it should also be remembered with certain particular strains of food (odd variates of tomatoes, buffalo meat, unique cheeses etc) you really can't find anything but the organic versions of these or get it anywhere but an organic market anyways.

 

[negZero]

Most organic food producers are small. I never said they weren't. I simply pointed out that most have been acquired recently when you said that they had not. It's a newer trend for major food processors to have organic subsidiaries.

Read the link I've provide. Organic food producers aren't small

I never argued health in regards to quality control, only taste which seems to be better when I buy organic food because it generally is fresher where I shop. I don't know if this is simply the quality of the store, the higher turnover rates, the actual composition of the food or a mixture of all three. Again, I never said I supported any of the health and/or environmental "myths" (though there is so many studies being done for and against, I'm not entirely convinced either way yet). I was arguing from personal tastes from the beginning and simply backed up why it can taste better with some reasoning when you inquired about it.

Umm yes you have read the bloodly ling I gave you and would see some of the myths.

5% is still a share of the market, and it's not difficult to buy from that 5% if you know where and what to look for.

Yes try to locate and find that 5% without doing hours of research, good luck.

They don't legally, though any good store/company keeps you at least somewhat informed if you ask. If they won't tell you, you probably are going to a bad store. And yes, they always could be lying, but putting on a charade like this (having a little map at that shows the route of the food to the store, giving a chart showing regional differences and leaving particular state/farm labels on food) seems to be taking it a bit far. I'm inclined to believe them given the amount of plausible evidence they deliver that the food is from where they say.

Nothing is to far for them to make dime. Heck they can make something up that sounds kinda right and most people will believe it without even second thought (its just how brain works).

As stated by Adria, at an organic farmer's market where you actually get to meet the grower, it's even better. I suppose they technically could be going to the grocery store, picking up a bushel of apples and selling me them at a mark-up, but given the farmer's market I usually attend is on a farm, I doubt this.

Did I not say you have go farm early or wait I did.

They don't have too, but if they don't provide good evidence then I am not inclined to trust them anyways. Research beforehand on food goes a long way, which I try to do regularly. An instance that comes to mind is a certain variety of Mozzarella Cheese that I heard was very good but after reading about I didn't buy because it turned out the Comorra (the Neapolitan Mafia) was dumping toxic waste near the farms. In short I do research when I can but when I don't, I trust the store isn't lying to me about the product (though it did say where the mozzarella was coming from, just not that it was polluted).

Its easy to pass BS off as the truth, otherwise I would have never have made it in school.

Yes, but when you have natural degeneration rates, you don't end up with misplaced trust on the preservatives, which often times only work as long as the food is in transport and go bad nearly after after arriving at the store.

You do realize those natural degenerations are faster with "organic" foods, right?

Again, I'm hardly arguing that all organic food is always better. All I stated was that food that I'm told is organic tastes better to me,

PLACEBO EFFECT.

where I come from it's almost universally fresher and I have had much better experiences with it in general. In addition to this, it should also be remembered with certain particular strains of food (odd variates of tomatoes, buffalo meat, unique cheeses etc) you really can't find anything but the organic versions of these or get it anywhere but an organic market anyways.

Funny I bet you am able to find it in non-organic food stores.


As said before there is no benefit with organic other then they empty your wallet faster.

On the taste better part link

 

[bombshoo]

Read the link I've provide. Organic food producers aren't small

The subsidiaries are small, not the owning food processing corporations. You were the one who pointed out the organic subsidiaries I showed you were small and I just agreed with you. If you actually do know any organic brands, most of the ones on that chart were the big/well known ones.

Umm yes you have read the bloodly ling I gave you and would see some of the myths.

I never said I didn't know the myths, I simply said that there is more than one link's worth of debate on them to the point where it isn't entirely clear cut.

Yes try to locate and find that 5% without doing hours of research, good luck.

It really isn't that hard considering the vast majority of that 5% consists of very locally popular regional stores/brands and farmers markets.

Nothing is to far for them to make dime. Heck they can make something up that sounds kinda right and most people will believe it without even second thought (its just how brain works).

This is true, but as I stated I think it's fair to give them the benefit of the doubt unless prior research proves otherwise.

Its easy to pass BS off as the truth, otherwise I would have never have made it in school.

Yeah, that's why I do research, but when I haven't I generally give them the benefit of the doubt if what they say sounds plausible. If I spent my whole life not trusting anything, I'd never be able to buy anything and probably be a lot less comfortable. At the very least if I do end up buying a bad product I know not to get it again.

You do realize those natural degenerations are faster with "organic" foods, right?

Of course I realize it's faster overall, but it's also more accounted for. People tend to trust preservatives too much and as stated, they often only last for the transportation period and maybe a few days after. At least when a food is in its natural degeneration you know what to expect.

PLACEBO EFFECT.

That just seems way too simple and the differences are way too distinct. I even notice empirical evidence such as the food generally cooking more evenly and having more distinctive individual parts.

Funny I bet you am able to find it in non-organic food stores.

Good luck finding non-organic heirloom tomatoes. I guess these products may exists but they are far more common at organic grocery stores simply because rare food items share a common market with people who prefer organic food. A typical suburban Kroger or Giant Eagle really has no market for buffalo meat or ostrich eggs and the organic food market is more often than not the best or only other alternative. Lately some grocery store chains have been introducing upscale stores with some of these items, but if you read the labels most of these items still claim to be organic.

On the taste better part link

from the link:

Nobody has been able to tell the difference except in one study of apples, where organics came out ahead. To get raspberries that taste raspberrier, buy produce that's locally grown, is in season, and hasn't been sitting on the shelf too long. Let's face it: Nothing is at its best when it's flown halfway around the world and waxed, then has to spend a week in the grocery store.

I even stated that this was my main reason for shopping at organic grocery stores. Products like these are simply far more common organically than they are at regular chain stores. If anything that link just basically proved my point on why I like the food from the organic store better, regardless if it is actually organic or not, simply because the quality control is better at these places in my experience. Remember in my first statement when I said:

Though I'm willing to consider it isn't the "organicness" of the food that is making it tastes better, but rather that stores that stock organic food tend to stock fresher produce and have better quality meats in general.

It should also be noted that any raspberry that is grown locally, in season, unwaxed and hasn't been sitting on the shelf too long is probably going to be close to the same price as any organic food, if not just be labeled organic anyways. For that matter, I've actually seen locally grown, in-season food be more expensive than its organic counterparts. I don't think anyone can deny food that meets these qualifications isn't going to taste better.