Overall Civ Elimination Thread

[greygamer]

I leave for a day or two and all you are trying to kill my Austrians. I honestly do not get it I would love to have a Spain like discussion about Austria because I do not get any of the hate to be honest. Please please explain why. Their UA is fantasic the fact you now wait 5 turns to marry and pay a bit more gold is nothing. You can expand in all aspects without having to build a large military the states hand everything to you on a golden platter for goodness sake. It is the most interesting military ability and the best way to expand period. Their UB is also great + GP points everywhere production for everything not just buildings. Yes please. In order to gain more great people points then Austria Sweden would have to be friends with 3 civs. I've never been able to stay friends with ai civs because they are sporadic and I don't know anyone who would declare friendship with you in multiplayer. Even though they get a boost it isn't worth possibly letting the Swedes get massive great people points. Their Unit isn't near as bad as people think I don't think it is the best cavalry replacement but it isn't the worst(here's looking at you Shoshone)

I would also welcome more detailed debates about a lot of the Civs that are getting hate. I have only played around half of the Civs (and only 6 of the remaining civs) and with my current favourites eliminated already fail to see the attract of many of the remaining civs. War focused civs have been eliminated just because war is more complicated now. I did set-up a diety game recently to see what the fuss is about, got attacked by the Zulu's early on and the only problem was I didn't build walls early enough (by a few turns). I'm not a diety level player, it was just a quick look at early game but I can't see how war is so different at the higher levels if you get science generation sorted out.

I am trying out Austria (on Emperor), the issue I have is they get nothing until Economics. The UA on paper is nice but can be undone by someone Allying with the CS. So if you dropped 250-500 gold on a CS with the intention of a political marriage it can be undone as you get into a bidding war with one or more Civs by which time you don't have the gold for the 'marriage'. For some reason I had to pay over 600 gold to marry the first CS, are there other factors that determine the cost? While I can see the attraction, but then I like Venice as well, just feels like they are like other civs but without a meaningful UU/UB/UA until mid-game.

PS I see Austria got eliminated in the time it took to write this post ... /sigh I think we are going to be left with a bunch of effective but not fun Civs

 

[Walter R]

Arabia - 23
Austria - 0
Aztec - 17
Babylon - 7 .
China - 25
England - 26+1=27
Ethiopia - 22
Germany - 20
Inca - 21
Korea - 24
Maya - 24
Persia - 5
Poland - 23
Portugal - 15
Shoshone -15
Siam - 22-3=19
Sweden - 9
Zulu - 22

So GreyGamer has requested a bit more detail...I'll try

England: The reason I love playing this Civ is that it is a lot more rounded than some give credit. For instance, the UA means that all your stuff moves faster on the water so scouts are less vulnerable, settlers get to islands faster (i.e. don't slow down their escort) your naval units movement means you can zip away if the odds don't favour you etc. etc. The UA is worth a lot more than I think is generally appreciated. And yes, England works best on water maps to get the full effect of the civ, but the longbow is a very powerful UU regardless.

Siam: Gonna struggle a bit here, seeing as I just don't play the way that gets the best out of Siam, that's my reason for downvoting.

 

[Troll4Hire]

Sweden - I was very skeptic about them until I finally gave them a try. What's the point with giving up your GE or GS to get a CS ally??? Well you (normally) shouldn't do that. You can give GM, GProfet, GAmiral, GG, GWMA (if not going for cultural victory). And you will get tons of great people from your DOFs. Hakkepelita i kind of meh but when Caroleans comes around you get a massive meat shield (perfect to combo with cover promotion) that can be used both for offence and defense. If you play your diplomacy cards smart, you can land grab from the most hated AIs while still keeping your DOF. Really strong, diverse and fun to play! I had Immortal victories before but with Sweden was the first time I super-steam-rolled everybody else.

Arabia - 23
Aztec - 17 + 1 = 18
Babylon - 7
China - 25
England - 27
Ethiopia - 22
Germany - 20
Inca - 21
Korea - 24
Maya - 24
Persia - 5
Poland - 23
Portugal - 15
Shoshone -15
Siam - 19
Sweden - 9 - 3 = 6
Zulu - 22

Sweden - I gave them a try, as Kennan suggested, but I still didn't find the UA promising enough. Here's how it went:

In a multiplayer game on a tiny map i ended up surrounded with city states from a few, but also strategically important positions. I tried what the UA suggests, to keep these CSs on my side with high reputation, but there was a point when my friend managed to overbid on one of these cities, then instantly DoW-d me to keep it on his side - while some of my units had to hold back the CS unit-invasion, he obviously tried to assault my empire from another direction. The siege failed in the end, but I am still not convinced by the strength of the UA, i'd switch it for something solid in no time - even Denmark's "Viking Fury" looks much more promising than this (at least for me).
The rifleman replacement unit performs good, but Hakkepelita is not an outstanding unit at all. Maybe the tiny map size and the fact that it was multiplayer, but I also didn't have much players to be friends with, so the Great Person generation bonus was also a theoretical, but rather a non-existing advantage.

So it's a 1 out of 3 situation for me, and a -3 points for Sweden.

I'm gonna upvote the Aztecs again, because of the decent and very effective UA UU UB combo, which works like clockwork.

 

[Njegos]

Arabia - 23
Aztec - 17 + 1 = 18
Babylon - 7
China - 25
England - 27
Ethiopia - 22
Germany - 20
Inca - 21
Korea - 24
Maya - 24
Persia - 5
Poland - 23
Portugal - 15
Shoshone -15-3= 12
Siam - 19
Sweden - 6+1 = 7 Gustavus Adolphus, Libera et impera (sabaton fan ) ,versatile civ, can go diplo and domi win with ease, am usually ally with every cs with them, and also i have tons of UUs from CS millitary gifts in every game...
Zulu - 22

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Arabia - 23
Aztec - 17
Babylon - 7
China - 25
England - 29
Ethiopia - 22
Germany - 20
Inca - 21
Korea - 24
Maya - 24
Persia - 5
Poland - 23
Portugal - 15
Shoshone - 8
Siam - 19
Sweden - 7
Zulu - 22

Britannia rule the waves! England is so powerful. Bonus spy gives you options right off the bat with spying, you can keep one at your capital if you're tech leader. As if that wasn't enough, you can shoot across the sea really quickly even with embarked units.
And that's just the UA... You then have possibly the best naval UU and possibly the best ranged UU. Brilliant, plus Lizzie is hot!

Shoshone is a very good civ, but early reliance on ruins annoys me, and the other UU isn't the best.

 

[greygamer]

So GreyGamer has requested a bit more detail...I'll try

England: The reason I love playing this Civ is that it is a lot more rounded than some give credit. For instance, the UA means that all your stuff moves faster on the water so scouts are less vulnerable, settlers get to islands faster (i.e. don't slow down their escort) your naval units movement means you can zip away if the odds don't favour you etc. etc. The UA is worth a lot more than I think is generally appreciated. And yes, England works best on water maps to get the full effect of the civ, but the longbow is a very powerful UU regardless.

Siam: Gonna struggle a bit here, seeing as I just don't play the way that gets the best out of Siam, that's my reason for downvoting.

More detail is always useful, it can encourage those with an open mind to give some civs another go.

As regards England, I haven't really played them for more than 150+ turns so far. Going to save them for the higher levels

Any civ that is good at the Diplo game leaves me a bit cold, but they changed it slightly in BNW so I turned that VC on again.

Mongols gone, China still in ...and yet the main reason China get's vote is because they are good at war ....
The tier list in the Strategy and Tips forum has Austria, Rome, Egypt, Morocco and Venice all as upper tier civs and here they are all gone. Yet lower tier Sweden is still here.

Arabia - 23
Aztec - 17
Babylon - 8 If science is king then they should stay in the mix. Also don't the UU/UB help deter early aggression from the opposition.
China - 25
England - 29
Ethiopia - 22
Germany - 20
Inca - 21
Korea - 24
Maya - 24
Persia - 5
Poland - 23
Portugal - 15
Shoshone - 5 I still don't see any reason to change my mind about them.
Siam - 19
Sweden - 7
Zulu - 22

 

[Vraslosken]

Arabia - 23
Aztec - 17
Babylon - 10 I agree that this is way to early for Babylon to be so low.
China - 25
England - 26 Too navally oriented.
Ethiopia - 22
Germany - 20
Inca - 21
Korea - 24
Maya - 24
Persia - 2
Poland - 23
Portugal - 15
Shoshone - 5
Siam - 19
Sweden - 7
Zulu - 22

 

[jlim201]

Arabia - 23
Aztec - 17
Babylon - 7- There is nothing here but a UA.
China - 25
England - 26
Ethiopia - 22
Germany - 20
Inca - 21
Korea - 24
Maya - 24
Persia - 3- Better than other civs here.
Poland - 23
Portugal - 15
Shoshone - 5
Siam - 19
Sweden - 7
Zulu - 22

 

[cpm4001]

Sweden - I gave them a try, as Kennan suggested, but I still didn't find the UA promising enough. Here's how it went:

In a multiplayer game on a tiny map i ended up surrounded with city states from a few, but also strategically important positions. I tried what the UA suggests, to keep these CSs on my side with high reputation, but there was a point when my friend managed to overbid on one of these cities, then instantly DoW-d me to keep it on his side - while some of my units had to hold back the CS unit-invasion, he obviously tried to assault my empire from another direction. The siege failed in the end, but I am still not convinced by the strength of the UA, i'd switch it for something solid in no time - even Denmark's "Viking Fury" looks much more promising than this (at least for me).
The rifleman replacement unit performs good, but Hakkepelita is not an outstanding unit at all. Maybe the tiny map size and the fact that it was multiplayer, but I also didn't have much players to be friends with, so the Great Person generation bonus was also a theoretical, but rather a non-existing advantage.

So it's a 1 out of 3 situation for me, and a -3 points for Sweden.

Ah...yeah...Sweden sucks in Multiplayer, and they suck doubly on small or tiny maps. The UA needs a lot of people willing to DoF you to be used to full effect. Try them again on a Standard or larger Singleplayer match. And yes, the Hakkapellita is a unit you just need one of to accompany your Caroleans, so there's no point in building very many of them.

 

[Derpy Hooves]

Arabia - 23
Aztec - 17
Babylon - 8
China - 25
England - 23
Ethiopia - 22
Germany - 20
Inca - 21
Korea - 24
Maya - 24
Persia - 3
Poland - 23
Portugal - 15
Shoshone - 5
Siam - 19
Sweden - 7
Zulu - 22

England, the ideal warmonger civ in a state of game that heavily disfavors warmongering, no clue how they got up so high, especially due to half their UA and UU's being water dependant.

Babylon, I think people really underestimate that early GS, that early in the game you're basically dealing with a 50% increase in science output when you work your academy, with additional GS throughout the rest of the game. The UU is pointless, the UB situational, but the absolutely sick UA should keep them in the race for a while longer.
Civ5 is mostly a game of gold and science, and Babylon is the best at science, you could argue that Korea overtakes them later game, but especially on the higher difficulties you won't be able to get those science wonders to get that tech boost.

 

[VicRatlhead5199]

Arabia - 23
Aztec - 20 Powerful UB good for any VC. A UU with great carryover promotions, one makes it an excellent barb hunter and the other makes it a warrior capable of scouting. The carryover promotions mean you have a UU from turn one to turn 300+. The UA requires some fighting but it works just as well defensively as it does offensively and it only gets stronger as you increase difficulty.
Babylon - 5- There is nothing here but a UA. One of the most boring civs in the game. If their bowman was switched to a comp bow I'd be more excited but an ancient UU is kind of a bad match for a civ that's going to burn through the early techs so fast. I hope they win the UA thread, I really do, but I just don't like them in the Overall. I'm voting them down for the same reason Mongolia got eliminated, one amazing aspect does not make a good "total package".
China - 25
England - 23
Ethiopia - 22
Germany - 20
Inca - 21
Korea - 24
Maya - 24
Persia - 3
Poland - 23
Portugal - 15
Shoshone - 5
Siam - 19
Sweden - 7
Zulu - 22

 

[Rakshasa72]

Arabia - 23
Aztec - 20+1=21 What can I say that hasn't already been said about Monty? Jungle start bias + Sacred paths belief + Sacrificial Captives= A lot of Social policies
Babylon - 5
China - 25
England - 23-3=20 I'm not a big fan of Civs with 2 UUs. Even though they are both pretty good and make sense I would rather have seen a UB for England. Pubs anyone?
Ethiopia - 22
Germany - 20
Inca - 21
Korea - 24
Maya - 24
Persia - 3
Poland - 23
Portugal - 15
Shoshone - 5
Siam - 19
Sweden - 7
Zulu - 22

 

[reticentbassist]

Arabia - 23
Aztec - 21
Babylon - 5
China - 25
England - 20
Ethiopia - 22
Germany - 20
Inca - 21
Korea - 24
Maya - 24
Persia - 0 = 3 - 3 I have to finish these guys off. I like Persia, I really do. Their Immortals are really strong, and Spearmen matter. Extra Golden Ages is a huge benefit, although for some play-styles extremely hard to achieve. A unique Bank is really nice, and Banks are already nice. But I think they are not in line with the other Civs in the race.
Poland - 23
Portugal - 15
Shoshone - 6 = 5 + 1 Are you kidding me? You get to CHOOSE your Ancient Ruins? You will NEVER get a Crudely Draw Map ever again?!?!? Now, if you want to play a balanced MP game, you will eliminate Ancient Ruins which I sometimes will do, but this UA really allows the Shoshone to launch themselves into wherever they want to be in the early game
Siam - 19
Sweden - 7
Zulu - 22

 

[bbbt]

Arabia - 23
Aztec - 21
Babylon - 2 - I'll also jump on Babylon. They're obviously powerful - because of the impact of science in the game - but not that interesting. Especially as their UU/UB are uninspired and come very early. It's basically playing a vanilla civ with faster science
China - 25
England - 20
Ethiopia - 22
Germany - 20
Inca - 22 - I'll give another bump to the Inca. Great UA and UI combo
Korea - 24
Maya - 24
Poland - 23
Portugal - 15
Shoshone - 6
Siam - 19
Sweden - 7
Zulu - 22

 

[The Massacrerer]

Arabia - 23
Aztec - 21
Babylon - 2
China - 25
England - 20
Ethiopia - 22
Germany - 20
Inca - 22
Korea - 24
Maya - 24
Poland - 23
Portugal - 15 (-3 = 12)
Shoshone - 6 (+1 = 7)
Siam - 19
Sweden - 7
Zulu - 22

I wish I would have joined in this thread earlier, as my "bad" civ would have been different (probably the Danish). Portugal isn't a bad civ, but certainly the weakest of the bunch that is left IMHO. The extra trade route cash is nice, but quite frankly I think the trade route system is overpowered (OP?). I have yet to play a game where I wasn't bringing in over 300GPT...regardless of who I played. With Portugal it was over 500GPT. The UU was useless to me, and I am a navy guy at heart in this game. A couple hundred gold & some experience for my ship just didn't float my boat (sorry...but that couldn't NOT be said). The UB comes at a time when most of the CS's have most of their land improved anyhow (I play on the "plus" maps), and finding an unimproved plot of land that I then have to send my worker to is a bit tedious.

I played my first game on Emperor-Huge-Pangea just a couple of weeks ago (and won an easy Domination victory), and I chose The Shoshone. I LOVED them! First off, the extra territory they get after settling is extraordinary. Settling two cities is tantamount to 3 cities worth of land. Strategically placed cities can cut off an entire section of real estate to grow on. The Comanche Rider was ok...but nothing too special. It was good for me as my play style is range bombard the walls, then swoop in the "0" defense city with my out of range Horse unit. However, the star was The Pathfinder. Strength aside, getting to pick my prize from the ruins was a game changer, especially so early in the game. Two Pathfinders, on a Huge map, logged me in +3 population, the first Pantheon, 3 free techs, approximately 2 free Social Policies worth of Culture, and 2 free Composite Bowmen. Since my 2nd Pathfinder already had the Scout II promotion by the time he upgraded to a CB, he became invaluable at allowing my small Domination force (3 CB's, 1 Horseman/Comanche Rider & 1 GG) to take over the continent by being able to scout a vast distance from a hilltop, allowing my Range/Logistic CB units to keep their distance, while chewing up the advancing forces, then take the city.

 

[Derpy Hooves]

Mongols gone, China still in ...and yet the main reason China get's vote is because they are good at war ....

Pretty sure the reason people like China mostly is the paper maker, and the Chu-Ko-Nu is a nice added bonus.

And in regards to your early war with the Zulu on deity, if your only problem was a missing wall, it was probably too early for the AI to have built a more commonly sized army for that difficulty, or you must have had hordes of units yourserf, in the middle and late in the game Shaka can easily field an army of 30+ units, same for everyone given the right situation really, yesterday I had Arabia and Morroco declare on me with similar sizes, both I believe tend to be pretty peace loving.
On the other hand, couple days further back I completely stomped Korea with 4 artillery and a horse, but I believe that might be due to it's rather unfortunate tendency to spend most of it's military production on turtle ships, which did very little to my mostly inland empire on continents.
But yeah, I wouldn't make too many statements about deity until you've survived till the modern age.

 

[striker4life360]

Arabia - 23
Aztec - 21
Babylon - 3
China - 25
England - 20
Ethiopia - 19
Germany - 20
Inca - 22
Korea - 24
Maya - 24
Poland - 23
Portugal - 15
Shoshone - 6
Siam - 19
Sweden - 7
Zulu - 22

Babs should not be gone this early if the voting is dude to them being one dimensional the same can be said for more the half of remaning civs.

 

[seasnake]

Arabia - 23
Aztec - 21
Babylon - 3 + 1 = 4
China - 25
England - 20 - 3 = 17
Ethiopia - 19
Germany - 20
Inca - 22
Korea - 24
Maya - 24
Poland - 23
Portugal - 15
Shoshone - 6
Siam - 19
Sweden - 7
Zulu - 22

Some thoughts: Large navies are useful but bland and by no means necessary, and with the shortage of gold available in the early game you have to be careful of early maintenance. No denying the UUs are very good, though.

Babylon's early UU and UB are dead useful, and a science heavy UA makes everything better no matter wha kind of victory you're looking for.

 

[redwings1340]

Arabia - 23
Aztec - 18
Babylon - 5
China - 25
England - 17
Ethiopia - 19
Germany - 20
Inca - 22
Korea - 24
Maya - 24
Poland - 23
Portugal - 15
Shoshone - 6
Siam - 19
Sweden - 7
Zulu - 22

Aztecs are decent, but I wouldn't want to play as them over any of these other civs. Babylon's UA is just too good to get eliminated now.

 

[greygamer]

Pretty sure the reason people like China mostly is the paper maker, and the Chu-Ko-Nu is a nice added bonus.

And in regards to your early war with the Zulu on deity, if your only problem was a missing wall, it was probably too early for the AI to have built a more commonly sized army for that difficulty, or you must have had hordes of units yourserf, in the middle and late in the game Shaka can easily field an army of 30+ units, same for everyone given the right situation really, yesterday I had Arabia and Morroco declare on me with similar sizes, both I believe tend to be pretty peace loving.
On the other hand, couple days further back I completely stomped Korea with 4 artillery and a horse, but I believe that might be due to it's rather unfortunate tendency to spend most of it's military production on turtle ships, which did very little to my mostly inland empire on continents.
But yeah, I wouldn't make too many statements about deity until you've survived till the modern age.

I already seen a post saying that gold isn't really a problem with other civs, which makes the Papermaker a bit meh. The Mongols would conquer China pretty quick in my experience and their UU is around at the same time as the CKN. I'm not impressed with China as an AI, it usually gets into an early war with another AI and loses, making it an easy target to push around later on. I'm more concerned if Shaka or Attila is my neighbour, but that is at Emperor of course. Carrying on with my Austria game for now (just unlocked the UB) but already dominating with gpt while holding off the Songhai as a landlocked civ.

In my diety game Shaka forward settled on me, my army was mid-placed. He only had low tech units but enough archers/catapults to get the basic defences down. I can't recall exactly how much he brought; maybe 5-6 melee, 2-3 archers and at the end a couple of catapults. I think he built the Terracota army. My mistake was I got Masonary but didn't build my walls asap otherwise I would have heldout imo. I was just seeing if I could grab a natural wonder on Diety which I did. My neighbour there was Washington but he didn't even get upset about it.