PAE VI

[thegreekweegee]

Britain - The land 0f Bears

Obligatory

 

[Antigenes2]

Obligatory

When I finally established a city on the island, all of those bears came south and attacked me. They don't just wander around. They're highly aggressive and make a bee-line for your city.

 

[Antigenes2]

I have something a bit weird going on. I built a stone fortress inside my cultural boundary, then put some units into it. At the end of the turn the troops are expelled as though there's been a culture flip, but there hasn't according to the map.

If I move the units back again they will be expelled again at the end of the turn.

Further on this subject, a stone fortress with units outside cultural boundaries didn't generate any culture. I don't know if this is still supposed to happen.

Finally, I traded for horses but wasn't able to build Horse Breeding or a stable. Nor add it to a wagon. This was also the case when I got it through the trade network.

EDIT: OK I figured out the horse problem by reading back through the other forum, then removing a camel camp. Egypt and the Libyans and Nubians if they're on the map are the civs that could mostly suffer from this. If you've already got camel/elephant camps in every city there is nothing to tell you why you can't build a stable, no red circles or anything. Maybe you should still be able to add horse to a wagon if you've got it through trade, that should give you red circles.

 

[Johnons]

A number of people have now raised this so I thought it worth doing a longer test on the latest patch, to show how a barbarian scenario would go for most people, bearing in mind the timings are on an 8-year-old i5, so they will vary somewhat depending on hardware. L5000 18CIVS+barbs scenario.

Turn 10 - 32 seconds
Turn 25 - 36 seconds
Turn 50 - 34 seconds
Turn 100 - 35 seconds
Turn 150 - 30 seconds
Turn 200 - 28 seconds
Turn 250 - 30 seconds

I expected turn 250 to be less than 30 seconds because there had been a slow trend of reducing turn times between 200 and 250, so perhaps turn 250 was one of the 'long' turns. It does make sense that as the barbarians lose cities and space the turn times will reduce, at least until the CIVs' extra units push them up in the normal way. I can't lie though, those 250 turns were a real grind, especially the first 200 when there wasn't that much to do.

I would first like to reiterate that I love this mod and appreciate all the work that has gone into it. I am still experiencing the problem quoted above and after the final release and am just curious if this is still an issue for anyone else. If there is nothing that can be done I understand. It is just unbearably slow for me. I am wondering if maybe I did something wrong when installing the final version over all the patches. Thanks for your time.

 

[Antigenes2]

I would first like to reiterate that I love this mod and appreciate all the work that has gone into it. I am still experiencing the problem quoted above and after the final release and am just curious if this is still an issue for anyone else. If there is nothing that can be done I understand. It is just unbearably slow for me. I am wondering if maybe I did something wrong when installing the final version over all the patches. Thanks for your time.

Well, at this time it's not an issue. That is, it is not a bug. Pie has made changes to the barbarian code so that the early turns in barbarian scenarios take longer but will fall off as the barbarians are overcome. If Pie decides to leave it as it is with the new patch that will come soon, I may have a sort of answer which I made for myself, because my old computer (or my brain) can't handle the long turns at the start of these scenarios. It's a sort of halfway house barbarian scenario that reduces but doesn't eliminate the barbarian presence. You won't get the prolonged onslaught that you get now though. That's impossible just usng Worldbuilder (at least for me).

 

[Johnons]

Well, at this time it's not an issue. That is, it is not a bug. Pie has made changes to the barbarian code so that the early turns in barbarian scenarios take longer but will fall off as the barbarians are overcome. If Pie decides to leave it as it is with the new patch that will come soon, I may have a sort of answer which I made for myself, because my old computer (or my brain) can't handle the long turns at the start of these scenarios. It's a sort of halfway house barbarian scenario that reduces but doesn't eliminate the barbarian presence. You won't get the prolonged onslaught that you get now though. That's impossible just usng Worldbuilder (at least for me).

I was wondering if maybe its just my computer as its fairly old (My brain may be the culprit as well!). The later turns don't bother me so much as there is a lot to think about in between turns, but early on I pretty much know what I want to do and find it almost unbearable. I have started a few games recently but found it too frustrating and quit. This happens with all scenarios involving pre placed barbarian cities(which are pretty much the only scenarios I play). What exactly are you doing to reduce this?

 

[Antigenes2]

I was wondering if maybe its just my computer as its fairly old (My brain may be the culprit as well!). The later turns don't bother me so much as there is a lot to think about in between turns, but early on I pretty much know what I want to do and find it almost unbearable. I have started a few games recently but found it too frustrating and quit. This happens with all scenarios involving pre placed barbarian cities(which are pretty much the only scenarios I play). What exactly are you doing to reduce this?

There are over 100 barbarian cities on these maps. I've tried a couple of things, reducing the number of cities which reduces turn times (though they're still slower than the non-barbarian maps) and on one I've also tried adding some extra barbarian warriors to produce a small early onslaught. This is difficult to balance. Typically between 1 and 3 civs get destroyed. With all the bears produced in the northern forests it's very difficult for the Gauls in particular. Other civs have an easier time of it due to barbarian city placement. But there's something to do early on and average turn times are 7-8 seconds until the barbarian cities are finished off around 200 laps in.

 

[Antigenes2]

I've mentioned this before but it may have got lost so I'll mention it again: I'd like to see Sea Peoples' ships reduced in strength from 5 to 4, or even 3, but at least 4, in order to give the player the tactical option of trying to intercept some of their ships at sea. Otherwise on some scenarios like Eastern Med, they are a bit too devastating, because they always land and there are many more of them than previously. On my present game I've gone past 50 attacks in less than 300 years, with another 300 to go. I've more or less given up trying to develop plots until the attacks cease. Another option might be to reduce the frequency of attacks. On most scenarios this isn't too relevant but on this one it seems to be, with so much ocean.

This is just an illustration, taken after defeating 4 shiploads, so imagine another 12 units on the screen, with another 12 about to land.

 

[globosud]

Hi, really a beautiful mod, I'm at the 800 round, no crash, so very stable mod, but some things don't get to me, because after a while they get boring, you can't plan a war, every three shifts they send me mercenaries, and the game becomes simply kill the mercenaries, with 30 civs, practically you get mercenaries and then mercenaries and then mercenaries , would it be better if the mercenaries to the same civilization cannot be put off before 30 shifts? or that mercenaries can only be sent after the declaration of war, or with some other prerequisite? If you can tell me how I can limit the mercenaries to 30 shifts from the last posting to a civilization, I would make this small change just for me. Thank you. and sorry for my bad english.
last thing, I would be very happy if one day you will extend this mod up to the first crusade 1096-1099 d.c .. it would become for me the absolute most beautiful mod ever.
the first crusade could become a condition of victory, like starting the spaceship for civ 4. It would be really very nice

another problem, there is too much barbarian spawn, 2/3 barbarians arrive every turn, every turn boring having to repair the barbarians' damages and chase them, it would be better for me
if the spawn was at least 5/6 turns, instead of every 1/2 turns like now

 

[brettschmitt]

[...] you can't plan a war, every three shifts they send me mercenaries, and the game becomes simply kill the mercenaries, with 30 civs, practically you get mercenaries and then mercenaries and then mercenaries

True... those mercenaries as you call them are annoying like hell! But they are caused by spies that your foes have sent.

Here are some hints to avoid that:
1. Have good relations with neighbours so they have no reason to send spies
2. Have one or better a few of your own spies in every city to passively counter enemy espionage
3. Have some defensive troops on your rare resources, and most important a fast moving defensive army...
... and last but not least
4. If you're planning a war build a seperate army besides all that defensive stuff

PAE is not just a walk in the park... you have to focus and be aware of any kind of threats. When you declare war to someone be sure he will send some spies to distract you
Every turn in PAE needs your full attention.

 

[pie_at]

OK, I am back from vacation.... I will now go on and prepare a patch with all your wishes. You have convinced me that I should turn on various settings (animals, mercenaries).

Simply the best mod out here! Thanks again for the excellent work. One question: is their a way to limit the amount of mercenaries the AI hires?

- yes, I'll do that. I'll change the chance of AI hiring.

Horse spread seems a bit odd to me. If one of your cities has a horse resource, any city can build a stables. Maybe that's OK. But if you move a horse to another city it can also build a stables, so one of these methods seems redundant. If you do that you get a horse resource, followed by the message that the newly created stable has been demolished because of lack of horse (presumably because the pasture hasn't yet been built), even though the first horse resource is still connected. Personally I prefer that stables (and camel camps) can only be built by moving the unit to the city, because at present the code seems to get itself into a knot sometimes.

Yes, I'll change the distribution of dogs, elephants, camels and horses again. It should get easier and more understandable. we'll see.

Bit of a nitpick, but the Wagon is called "Waggon", and when I try to pay away Fights on his Own and unit War Wariness, when it doesn't see the pay raise as enough, it says "The unit has not impressed with its pay raise" instead of "The unit is not impressed with its pay raise". Other than those little nitpicks, the mod's pretty much perfect. I really can't ask more for you to deliver, and I'm very eager to try the other civilizations (I'm playing as Rome on Europe XL rn, pillaging and enslaving anything that mildly inconveniences me; great stuff).

Thx, those "nitpicks" are quite important !
- Wagon: changed
- pay raise: changed

You're right, thanks. Either an enemy Civ or barbarians. But that begs the question - wouldn't being at war be the main reason to use spies anyway? Is this intended?

Speaking of spies, on the espionage screen some text is geting covered by the longer ruler names.

Tin Hinan seems to have a missing text entry. I just get TXT_KEY_TIN_HINAN instead of the name. Missing from the PAEGameText_PAEV.xml file I think.

thx, I'll check that!
- long leader names
- Tin Hinan

About the spies: yes, I don't know why they don't go into friendly cities anymore. I try to resolve that again.

I have something a bit weird going on. I built a stone fortress inside my cultural boundary, then put some units into it. At the end of the turn the troops are expelled as though there's been a culture flip, but there hasn't according to the map.

Finally, I traded for horses but wasn't able to build Horse Breeding or a stable. Nor add it to a wagon. This was also the case when I got it through the trade network.

EDIT: OK I figured out the horse problem by reading back through the other forum, then removing a camel camp. Egypt and the Libyans and Nubians if they're on the map are the civs that could mostly suffer from this. If you've already got camel/elephant camps in every city there is nothing to tell you why you can't build a stable, no red circles or anything. Maybe you should still be able to add horse to a wagon if you've got it through trade, that should give you red circles.

Yeah, I change the distribution of horses again. My plan is to allow the distribution of camels and horses in every city with appropriate breeding plots.

I'll check the stone fortress too.

I've mentioned this before but it may have got lost so I'll mention it again: I'd like to see Sea Peoples' ships reduced in strength from 5 to 4, or even 3, but at least 4, in order to give the player the tactical option of trying to intercept some of their ships at sea. Otherwise on some scenarios like Eastern Med, they are a bit too devastating, because they always land and there are many more of them than previously. On my present game I've gone past 50 attacks in less than 300 years, with another 300 to go. I've more or less given up trying to develop plots until the attacks cease. Another option might be to reduce the frequency of attacks. On most scenarios this isn't too relevant but on this one it seems to be, with so much ocean.

This is just an illustration, taken after defeating 4 shiploads, so imagine another 12 units on the screen, with another 12 about to land.

hm, ok I'll have a look and see if it's good to decrease the strength of the sea people vessels to 4.

Hi, really a beautiful mod, I'm at the 800 round, no crash, so very stable mod, but some things don't get to me, because after a while they get boring, you can't plan a war, every three shifts they send me mercenaries, and the game becomes simply kill the mercenaries, with 30 civs, practically you get mercenaries and then mercenaries and then mercenaries , would it be better if the mercenaries to the same civilization cannot be put off before 30 shifts? or that mercenaries can only be sent after the declaration of war, or with some other prerequisite? If you can tell me how I can limit the mercenaries to 30 shifts from the last posting to a civilization, I would make this small change just for me. Thank you. and sorry for my bad english.
last thing, I would be very happy if one day you will extend this mod up to the first crusade 1096-1099 d.c .. it would become for me the absolute most beautiful mod ever.
the first crusade could become a condition of victory, like starting the spaceship for civ 4. It would be really very nice

another problem, there is too much barbarian spawn, 2/3 barbarians arrive every turn, every turn boring having to repair the barbarians' damages and chase them, it would be better for me
if the spawn was at least 5/6 turns, instead of every 1/2 turns like now

Yes, I'll change the spawning rate of animals and mercenaries.

First crusade: First of all, I try to finish the difficult and disoriented times of christianity in the late antiquity. Then I try to go into the SDK programming to add new possibilites and gaming experiences. If I am not too old then, we should meet again to talk about "future" But I think, CIV 10 will have started then...

 

[brettschmitt]

About the spies: yes, I don't know why they don't go into friendly cities anymore. I try to resolve that again.

The spies can't enter HOSTILE cities... In friendly cities they can...

 

[pie_at]

ah, ok thx! hm... perhaps there is an anti spy campaign during war....

 

[Antigenes2]

Hi, really a beautiful mod, I'm at the 800 round, no crash, so very stable mod, but some things don't get to me, because after a while they get boring, you can't plan a war, every three shifts they send me mercenaries, and the game becomes simply kill the mercenaries, with 30 civs, practically you get mercenaries and then mercenaries and then mercenaries , would it be better if the mercenaries to the same civilization cannot be put off before 30 shifts? or that mercenaries can only be sent after the declaration of war, or with some other prerequisite? If you can tell me how I can limit the mercenaries to 30 shifts from the last posting to a civilization, I would make this small change just for me. Thank you. and sorry for my bad english.
last thing, I would be very happy if one day you will extend this mod up to the first crusade 1096-1099 d.c .. it would become for me the absolute most beautiful mod ever.
the first crusade could become a condition of victory, like starting the spaceship for civ 4. It would be really very nice

another problem, there is too much barbarian spawn, 2/3 barbarians arrive every turn, every turn boring having to repair the barbarians' damages and chase them, it would be better for me
if the spawn was at least 5/6 turns, instead of every 1/2 turns like now

I'd love an early medieval mod, but it's almost a different game. A scenario might be better, but you would need new factions, units, buildings, tech tree etc. But it would be amazing.

 

[Antigenes2]

True... those mercenaries as you call them are annoying like hell! But they are caused by spies that your foes have sent.

Here are some hints to avoid that:
1. Have good relations with neighbours so they have no reason to send spies
2. Have one or better a few of your own spies in every city to passively counter enemy espionage
3. Have some defensive troops on your rare resources, and most important a fast moving defensive army...
... and last but not least
4. If you're planning a war build a seperate army besides all that defensive stuff

PAE is not just a walk in the park... you have to focus and be aware of any kind of threats. When you declare war to someone be sure he will send some spies to distract you
Every turn in PAE needs your full attention.

Depends on where they come from. If they come from the new barbarian forts (which I haven't seen much of in the current patch), or sent by other civs. If it's the latter I think (I could be wrong) that it happens when your points total with a civ hits a certain negative value, with a random factor and a gold factor thrown in. I haven't looked at the code though, so my impression could be completely wrong. But I can't think why else a much smaller civ I'd had no contact with would commission mercenaries. I agree with keeping defensive forces at strategic locations to quickly respond to mercenary attacks.

 

[brettschmitt]

... If it's the latter I think (I could be wrong) that it happens when your points total with a civ hits a certain negative value, with a random factor and a gold factor thrown in. I haven't looked at the code though, so my impression could be completely wrong. But I can't think why else a much smaller civ I'd had no contact with would commission mercenaries.

I might be wrong too, but there are spie missions to activate a mercenary riot. The more money you spend, the better the mercenary stack will be...
I'm not sure if you have to send a spie in enemy territory, or maybe activate it in the Espionage menu (top left).

Don't use espionage that much, so can't say for sure.
Never heard about an espionage value comparison that automaticaly activates a riot, tbh...

 

[thegreekweegee]

I'd love an early medieval mod, but it's almost a different game. A scenario might be better, but you would need new factions, units, buildings, tech tree etc. But it would be amazing.

In all honesty, once you start covering other eras, you're pretty much obligated to cover them all. I'd rather Pie's Ancient Europe stayed in the ancient/classical eras for now, and have Pie nail everything down in that period before thinking of moving to other eras and the mechanics they'll have. Unlike the mess that is Caveman 2 Cosmos (might be wrong in recent times, but I always knew C2C was messy), Pie's Ancient Europe is much cleaner and more organized, and feels like something Firaxis would create and publish. I'd rather we let Pie keep to his dedication for quality before egging him for more eras, mechanics, etc.

 

[globosud]

Pae arrives in any case to the early Middle Ages, because the games end around 700/800 A.D, but the problem that when it exceeds 600 A.D. the game becomes a bit anti-historical, it would be enough to make sense of the period after 600 A.D. coming up to the first crusade in the year one thousand, to make sense of the game play in those four centuries. Starting the first crusade could be a condition of victory, like starting the spaceship for civ 4. It would be really very nice
N.B.
the game play remains the same, because there is still no gunpowder

 

[brettschmitt]

Pae arrives in any case to the early Middle Ages, because the games end around 700/800 A.D

No, it usually ends at 500AC.
Only my Eurasia XL map ends later at the moment, because I'm experimenting with game speed to find the best fit. That will be updated soon

 

[globosud]

Sorry,
I was referring to it, because I only play that scenario